Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[everywhere116]

Like I was saying before, I know the reason softclaiming abilities in such a manner hurts town and helps scum, since the topic has been revived and it would no longer pertain to anyone's motives that need to be answered for, I believe I should state it.

Scenario A, let's say a player is the actual town doc, they say something like "who I protect is my business" or whatever to hint at their role.
For the sake or argument, let's just say in this fictitious game 1/2 of the players are people who will never pick up at subtly, and the other half get it outright, given a typical ratio, one half of town knows, one half of scum knows, if even one scum knows, all scum will know by night one, and the one half of town will be ignorant, obviously better to just outright state it or say nothing.

Scenario B, This player in question is Scum, he makes a similar statement "I know who isn't getting protection tonight" or whatever.
as scum they have nothing to fear from scum, and in certain themes (like this one) one can be fairly sure 3rd party serial killers aren't abound, we will use the same statistics, 1/2 of town catches on, if the cop is one they can say to themselves "oh the doc, no use following that up", the town majority thinks "oh the doc, we shouldn't' pressure him", the actual doc think "hmm, should I out myself to hit scum day one or not? Could they be a doc too?"

B.1 Let's say "yes, I should counterclaim" thinks the doc, "Hey man, you aren't the doc, I am!" says the doc. The scum replies with plenty of vague wiggle room, "I never claimed to be the doc idiot, I said 'protect', I'm the bodyguard, nice job outing us both!" the scum lives on and the doc is outed

B.2 Doc thinks "I'm not sure yet" and the scum lives on with all the benefits.


And that's why soft claiming as the doc is not a good town maneuver, and soft claiming as scum is empowering.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's the basics for day one when no one knows what will been done yet.

Well, this pretty much blows out of the water my only reason for thinking that Doom was acting scummy. Seems like outing jak at this point was the smart move.

[thechuck51]

Like I was saying before, I know the reason softclaiming abilities in such a manner hurts town and helps scum, since the topic has been revived and it would no longer pertain to anyone's motives that need to be answered for, I believe I should state it.

Scenario A, let's say a player is the actual town doc, they say something like "who I protect is my business" or whatever to hint at their role.
For the sake or argument, let's just say in this fictitious game 1/2 of the players are people who will never pick up at subtly, and the other half get it outright, given a typical ratio, one half of town knows, one half of scum knows, if even one scum knows, all scum will know by night one, and the one half of town will be ignorant, obviously better to just outright state it or say nothing.

Scenario B, This player in question is Scum, he makes a similar statement "I know who isn't getting protection tonight" or whatever.
as scum they have nothing to fear from scum, and in certain themes (like this one) one can be fairly sure 3rd party serial killers aren't abound, we will use the same statistics, 1/2 of town catches on, if the cop is one they can say to themselves "oh the doc, no use following that up", the town majority thinks "oh the doc, we shouldn't' pressure him", the actual doc think "hmm, should I out myself to hit scum day one or not? Could they be a doc too?"

B.1 Let's say "yes, I should counterclaim" thinks the doc, "Hey man, you aren't the doc, I am!" says the doc. The scum replies with plenty of vague wiggle room, "I never claimed to be the doc idiot, I said 'protect', I'm the bodyguard, nice job outing us both!" the scum lives on and the doc is outed

B.2 Doc thinks "I'm not sure yet" and the scum lives on with all the benefits.


And that's why soft claiming as the doc is not a good town maneuver, and soft claiming as scum is empowering.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's the basics for day one when no one knows what will been done yet.

Well put. I agree 100%

[thechuck51]

YES! So do you still doubt him doom? Cause if you do, and nobody counter claims him, I must say that is grounds enough to earn my vote. Least give someone time to counter claim him if you wish to vote him.

Looks to me like NewGuy was rooting for option B.1

[Rodion]

Boy, you guys surely post a lot here!

I plan to read everything since my last post and make a "catch up" post today.

[jak111]

YES! So do you still doubt him doom? Cause if you do, and nobody counter claims him, I must say that is grounds enough to earn my vote. Least give someone time to counter claim him if you wish to vote him.

Looks to me like NewGuy was rooting for option B.1

Looks to me like directly after my post people are continuing with this WIFOM case.
Congrats, you earns honorary title of SKIMMER

[new guy1]

YES! So do you still doubt him doom? Cause if you do, and nobody counter claims him, I must say that is grounds enough to earn my vote. Least give someone time to counter claim him if you wish to vote him.

Looks to me like NewGuy was rooting for option B.1

Looks to me like directly after my post people are continuing with this WIFOM case.
Congrats, you earns honorary title of SKIMMER

I wasnt rooting for option B, I was saying if someone was going to vote him then I say they need a counterclaim (dont claim doc if it is not jak). Im saying you dont lynch the claimed doc without there being a counterclaim.

[jak111]

YES! So do you still doubt him doom? Cause if you do, and nobody counter claims him, I must say that is grounds enough to earn my vote. Least give someone time to counter claim him if you wish to vote him.

Looks to me like NewGuy was rooting for option B.1

Looks to me like directly after my post people are continuing with this WIFOM case.
Congrats, you earns honorary title of SKIMMER

I wasnt rooting for option B, I was saying if someone was going to vote him then I say they need a counterclaim (dont claim doc if it is not jak). Im saying you dont lynch the claimed doc without there being a counterclaim.

But you see, they're going to continue with this WIFOM because they know they won't get a counter claim when I'm not one of them.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Like I was saying before, I know the reason softclaiming abilities in such a manner hurts town and helps scum, since the topic has been revived and it would no longer pertain to anyone's motives that need to be answered for, I believe I should state it.

Scenario A, let's say a player is the actual town doc, they say something like "who I protect is my business" or whatever to hint at their role.
For the sake or argument, let's just say in this fictitious game 1/2 of the players are people who will never pick up at subtly, and the other half get it outright, given a typical ratio, one half of town knows, one half of scum knows, if even one scum knows, all scum will know by night one, and the one half of town will be ignorant, obviously better to just outright state it or say nothing.

Scenario B, This player in question is Scum, he makes a similar statement "I know who isn't getting protection tonight" or whatever.
as scum they have nothing to fear from scum, and in certain themes (like this one) one can be fairly sure 3rd party serial killers aren't abound, we will use the same statistics, 1/2 of town catches on, if the cop is one they can say to themselves "oh the doc, no use following that up", the town majority thinks "oh the doc, we shouldn't' pressure him", the actual doc think "hmm, should I out myself to hit scum day one or not? Could they be a doc too?"

B.1 Let's say "yes, I should counterclaim" thinks the doc, "Hey man, you aren't the doc, I am!" says the doc. The scum replies with plenty of vague wiggle room, "I never claimed to be the doc idiot, I said 'protect', I'm the bodyguard, nice job outing us both!" the scum lives on and the doc is outed

B.2 Doc thinks "I'm not sure yet" and the scum lives on with all the benefits.


And that's why soft claiming as the doc is not a good town maneuver, and soft claiming as scum is empowering.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's the basics for day one when no one knows what will been done yet.

Well, this pretty much blows out of the water my only reason for thinking that Doom was acting scummy. Seems like outing jak at this point was the smart move.

OMG seriously guys i said this a freaking week ago and everyone went over it lol im glad someone restated it

[jak111]

~Waits for my post on the last page to stop being skimmed before I bother trying to defend myself at all anymore~

-.- See, now people wonder why I don't want to use my power tonight. Because I don't see many really worthy of it. If you don't want to bother even listening to my defense why should I make one and why should I defend someone who skims over it?

[ghostly447]

I will get a vote count done tomorrow morning guys. My apologies, got busy again today.

[Rodion]

@ Rodion, as I was reading it over I seen the bandwagon again, but initially forgot about it. If you wish to find a simple way to get the voters on Doom's bw feel free to do so, but I went through page for page for the info I got. But I believe I mentioned earlier I'm doing a full read through of both mafia's I'm in this weekend. So what I posted was a bit quicker than what I'm working on tomorrow and Sunday.
Also I'll make sure to check up on Chap's posts. PMC and you seem to be really on him, so I'll see if I can't dig some old info back up on him

Would be easier if everyone voted him with the same name. I reckon some people voted "Doom" while some voted "Yoshi" and others voted "DoomYoshi", so it's hard to use the search feature to find the information we want. I'll be interested in going back to research this if you flip mafia (but with the doctor claim, I believe you won't). Then I'd check Yoshi's bandwagon to find players that you should have "pressured" after doing the overall analysis but did not because you forgot to add Doom's data.

Chuck, have you ever played mafia? If yes, can you give us details (where, how long, how often...)?

So someone keep a note of this somewhere if I die tonight (100% likely if we kill of jg).

Are you saying you are more likely to be nightkilled if the claimed survivor gets lynched? Conversely, by not lynching the claimed survivor we are less likely to lose our claimed doctor?

Care to explain why?

Anyway, I thought it was odd that pmc told newguy to stop soft claiming. We've already had a lengthy discussion about soft claiming with Doom and jak, so why does pmc feel the need to step in and say this? Either he's trying to get newguy to not make a slip because they are mates or he wanted to bring it out in the open. I noticed no soft claim initially. I will go back and check, but that just seems odd.

Message to everyone: people have been softclaiming (with a hardclaim conversion instance) and this is not doing us any good. Please stop. It's not "witty" to softclaim unless you absolutely know what you are doing and, no offense, odds are you don't.

About chuck: I can't believe he got offended when he was picked on. He must be scum... I feel like he's contributed more than Rodion. I mean, look at Rodion's last post. He was bringing up stuff that had already been talked about and we were through with. What was the point of even making that post? To appear active and townish? That's all it seems like to me. I don't like Rodion's play so far in this game.

You mean when I remembered the busdriver question you asked (something around the lines of "what's the point of it?") and answered it? Or the post before that, which was also a "catch up" post?

I'm not contributing much this game and I've already explained why, but rest assured all my posts are intelligent and quality should trump quantity most of the time.

And for Rodion, I went back and looked at my other recent games, Harry Potter mafia had a scum busdriver, Final Fantasy, as you said, and Memebase mafia at least. There may have been one more, but I can't remember right now. So, it has seemed to me that we've been going through mafia drivers quite a bit lately.

Thank you. Now I know you were not purposefully lying to mislead the town. Town only stands to win if everyone makes a habit of asking people to back up whichever extraneous facts they claim in a game.

Read through the end of page 46.

More to come soonish.

[safariguy5]

Like I've said, I dropped minor hints that quite a few never picked up on until I was forced to say "GO BACK AND LOOK WHAT I WAS SOFT CLAIMING" oh yea.. everyone forgot the FOS's and vote's starting to pile up. More FOS's than votes, but if I didn't say anything you could tell by how everyone was talking that that'd change.

So I don't think anyone picked up except one or two that I was even so much as soft claiming until I said I was. So this argument can be dropped, you all chose to pressure me into it, and I wouldn't have even fully claimed if Doom didn't say a single word about it. If you're looking for more to the story there is none, I tried teeth and nails to keep myself hidden but nope, you all started compiling 'cases' and FOS's out of thin air. What did you expect the outcome to be? "Oh yea, I'm VT" <.< Mind you that would've been a smarter thing to do, but of course then it'd be "Let's lynch a VT, they're useless" And if I claimed after that it'd be "Why are you switching your claim? Trying to seem important?"

Anyone who tries to deny that that's pretty much the EXACT scenario that would've went down, I'd advise you to go back and check how everyone was posting toward my aggressiveness at the start of the day.

And furthermore, anyone who tries to put me how they'd play the role, they'd be wrong. This is my first time doc, I'm usually nothing special in the games so I'm more used to an aggressive role.

Though I admire the courage of it all, I do got to say all this WIFOM against me is horrible. Basically if I sum up all your arguments it can be put in the forms of "if..." "and..." "but...." "perhaps..." etc. Though what makes me want to pick you guys apart is the fact that we 2-3 days left and you're still focusing on my case rather than anything else. Believe me, tomorrow you don't have to worry about a case on me or complain about my posts because I'll be dead for trying to do what I thought was right at that place and that time. Plus with the emotional factors that were happening around the time didn't help with logic.

Anything else? Or are we safe to move on and make the only day I got to help you guys figure something out worth while?

I've said this before too, but I'll restate it.

What role you get should dictate how you play the game (to an extent).

We've already gone over how a VT would act important to try and soak up a mafia NK and how town power roles want to try to avoid getting outed early. I would say that you yourself are partially responsible for putting yourself in the position of being forced to claim. The personal playstyle is irrelevant, but for you to stand on your soapbox and play the martyr as if it was all everybody else's fault is disingenuous. Better as a power role to sit tight and claim when at L-2 than softclaim and then get mad at everyone for not picking up on it when the end result is a full claim anyways.

[thechuck51]

YES! So do you still doubt him doom? Cause if you do, and nobody counter claims him, I must say that is grounds enough to earn my vote. Least give someone time to counter claim him if you wish to vote him.

Looks to me like NewGuy was rooting for option B.1

Looks to me like directly after my post people are continuing with this WIFOM case.
Congrats, you earns honorary title of SKIMMER

I wasnt rooting for option B, I was saying if someone was going to vote him then I say they need a counterclaim (dont claim doc if it is not jak). Im saying you dont lynch the claimed doc without there being a counterclaim.

I read it like you are anticipating somebody will counter-claim.

If doom outing jak's soft claim was so bad why would you go back and point out to everybody exactly where it was?

Again, I didn't make a big deal about PMC not pressuring Chuck, do the town a favor and go back and re-read it all. You sir, Mr.Skimmer need to do your homework on people before winging it so much . Aye, I did protect jg, it's what town mates do. Unlike you, I wish to protect the townies. If it is wrong to do so then I guess I shouldn't protect anyone?

Deleted the rest of the quote, but here it is.

I'm not sure that Doom isn't implicit in this scheme either. Jak soft-claims with 3 votes on him and you and Doom jump all over it to make sure everybody sees it. If the doc was a noob and didn't pick up on the soft claim (like I didn't) you guys made sure he was in the know real quick so he would have to decide whether or not to counter-claim.

I know the mafia guys are told who their scummates are but would they know their fake-claims (if they were given) as well?

fastposted x2

[thechuck51]

Chuck, have you ever played mafia? If yes, can you give us details (where, how long, how often...)?

No I never have. I am currently playing in this game, matrix, and a newbie game on mafiascum and these games are my first experience other than reading through some old games in the archives

[safariguy5]

YES! So do you still doubt him doom? Cause if you do, and nobody counter claims him, I must say that is grounds enough to earn my vote. Least give someone time to counter claim him if you wish to vote him.

Looks to me like NewGuy was rooting for option B.1

Looks to me like directly after my post people are continuing with this WIFOM case.
Congrats, you earns honorary title of SKIMMER

I wasnt rooting for option B, I was saying if someone was going to vote him then I say they need a counterclaim (dont claim doc if it is not jak). Im saying you dont lynch the claimed doc without there being a counterclaim.

I read it like you are anticipating somebody will counter-claim.

If doom outing jak's soft claim was so bad why would you go back and point out to everybody exactly where it was?

Again, I didn't make a big deal about PMC not pressuring Chuck, do the town a favor and go back and re-read it all. You sir, Mr.Skimmer need to do your homework on people before winging it so much . Aye, I did protect jg, it's what town mates do. Unlike you, I wish to protect the townies. If it is wrong to do so then I guess I shouldn't protect anyone?

Deleted the rest of the quote, but here it is.

I'm not sure that Doom isn't implicit in this scheme either. Jak soft-claims with 3 votes on him and you and Doom jump all over it to make sure everybody sees it. If the doc was a noob and didn't pick up on the soft claim (like I didn't) you guys made sure he was in the know real quick so he would have to decide whether or not to counter-claim.

I know the mafia guys are told who their scummates are but would they know their fake-claims (if they were given) as well?

fastposted x2

If the mafia are given their fakeclaims individually, then they'll probably PM each other what the fakes are Night 1 anyways.