Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

[vodean]

Alright, after some thought, I have devised a proper system to use.
For the purposes of this working, we either need to confirm the exact effects of jaks role, have him and other multi voters NOT USE THEIR ROLES unless instructed, or lynch them.

We are currently divided between
list A
Scum ratio 3-4 out of 11-12

show

And list B
No known ratio, 12 players

show

if we wish to be clear on how many scum there are total, we might have everyone on list B partake in the lynch alone today.
otherwise, to move on to the plan. With 23 alive it takes 12 to lynch
we will have everyone on list A on the bandwagon, not counting the stolen vote, we will subtract one extra from list A, and add two from list B for a total of 12,

so, for example,

show

in the above example, vodean was removed from list A, pancake and squirrel were added from list B
if chap confirms the amount of scum on the lynch has dropped, it means one of the following, that can be narrowed down through subsequent lynches and list reshuffles
1.vodean is scum, and was removed form the list
2.jak is scum, and his vote counts twice
3.LSU is scum, and his vote counts even if it isn't by choice.
4.Pancake and squirrel cannot be scum. <PROVEN

if the ratio stays the same, it means one of the following
1.Vodean, mr.s and pancake are town
2.Vodean was scum, but was replaced by pancake or mr.s who are also scum.
3.LSU is scum that was replaced by another scum
4. Jak is scum, whose extra vote was also replaced by scum.

if the ratio rises to 5 scum, it means one of the following
1.Vodean is town, pancake or Mr S is scum
2.vodean is scum, pancake and mr s are scum
3.jak's second vote is scum, pancake and mr.s are scum
4.jak's second vote is town, pancake or squirrel are scum.

if the ratio rises by two
1.it can only mean Mr S and pancake are scum, vodean is cleared, four of those remaining are scum too

once this ratio is established, the new group of band-wagoners becomes list A, and should subsequently have someone removed that needs to be cleared, and list B unknowns added to be tested depending on the total number of alive players remaining.

and since it has the most mystery around it, I would personally subtract jak's role from today's side A equation final vote count, but that's up to you all.
by this method, taking into account lynches, possible vig kills (I recommend that town kills be prioritized to list A, as it narrows down the ratio without doubt), mafia kills, etc, we could plausibly have everyone cleared in less than 5 game days.

that sounds like it should work very well. does that mean we only lynch players from list A as well?

[/]

We should lynch as usual, using the data gained as a supplement.
The odds are good today, so we probably should lynch from "A" this time unless a very good case is presented, but as the pool is narrowed, and we weed out the scum from A, it would be logical to switch "B" to "A".

We cannot completely discount investigation immune roles though, so keep on your toes.

[aage]

Before we move on to using those lists, whose votes have been stolen? And shouldn't we focus on removing Droz from the list first as he probably won't affect the anti-town count?

[samgrossy]

I get the list thing, /. This was, in essence, the type of analysis I was going to do after the results of the second list came out, except now we are trying to control it. Very scientific. I love it.

So I elect to move on the system. This is contingent on Chap staying alive, so he needs to be doctored every night.

Aage, what do you mean remove DRoZ from the list? If you mean lynch him, I don't think that's smart because based on his claim of watcher, he is most likely town. If you mean remove from suspicion and put him on list b, then probably yes.

So my vote is to lynch Vodean. He's scummy and he is on list A.
Who's with me?

[vodean]

I get the list thing, /. This was, in essence, the type of analysis I was going to do after the results of the second list came out, except now we are trying to control it. Very scientific. I love it.

So I elect to move on the system. This is contingent on Chap staying alive, so he needs to be doctored every night.

Aage, what do you mean remove DRoZ from the list? If you mean lynch him, I don't think that's smart because based on his claim of watcher, he is most likely town. If you mean remove from suspicion and put him on list b, then probably yes.

So my vote is to lynch Vodean. He's scummy and he is on list A.
Who's with me?

thats a fantastic case you have against me. i can feel the noose tightening around my neck. please, someone present a real case. like my earlier cases against jak, or against spiesr.

[jonty125]

I have no objection to the / method.

[vodean]

I have no objection to the / method.

and we will all take that into consideration. we highly value your incredibly deep and thorough input

[jonty125]

I have no objection to the / method.

and we will all take that into consideration. we highly value your incredibly deep and thorough input

Well, / made a thorough post and I couldn't add any other scenarios or remove any, so I agree with his method.

[vodean]

I have no objection to the / method.

and we will all take that into consideration. we highly value your incredibly deep and thorough input

Well, / made a thorough post and I couldn't add any other scenarios or remove any, so I agree with his method.

im just saying. i didnt FOS you or anything. no need to be all jumpy and defensive.

[jonty125]

I have no objection to the / method.

and we will all take that into consideration. we highly value your incredibly deep and thorough input

Well, / made a thorough post and I couldn't add any other scenarios or remove any, so I agree with his method.

im just saying. i didnt FOS you or anything. no need to be all jumpy and defensive.

Well you were been sarcastic so I felt a response was necessary.

[jak111]

Interesting /, care to explain why your list is for 1.) off, and 2.) Why some people are counted twice?

First off, I stole Victor's vote, not LSU's, don't get the wrong person's name in people's heads to benefit your scenario, so everywhere you say LSU people need to change in their heads to be Victor.

LSU was killed Night 1, and now he replaces Mr.S. But you also have Mr.S on your List B with LSU on List A.

show

Let me fix up your list and your suggestions a bit /.

show: A

show: B

Now, there are two ways we can go about doing this, something I think no one else is thinking of is that we can get a FULL town list and have 11-12 CLEARS with Chap's power (no non town on a list for example) effectively narrowing down our list to the other 12 which we then can mix with clears and get more clears or guilties among a few.

The other way is just mixing the two lists and getting few answers, taking days to complete and by then clears will be sniped off.

For the second, we could do something like / suggested but for the first I'm thinking something like

With 12 needed to lynch, the next lynch could have the following players on it.

1. Jak
2. Chapcrap
3. DRoZ
4. Violet
5. LSU
6. Commander 9 (If he uses both votes we'll only need 11 on the list)
7. /
8. Sam
9. Victor
10.

Well.. only got 9 people I think would be good to put on a clear list. To do this though every protection role possible will have to help Chap survive the night. The reason Chap is on the list is so that we don't risk hitting a mafia on the list and making the list harder to narrow mafia.

So if Commander uses his double vote we'd only need two more people on the list. With 11 cleared, only 11-12 unknowns will be left tomorrow.

This list will be efficient if we can get all town on the list for the following main reason.

We have 12 in question, if we can get ALL of the ones on this lynch cleared, with the people so far chosen we could narrow the four non towns to the following players.

Jonty
Safari
vodean
strike wolf
Soundman
Aage
nagerous
JGordon

8 of those 12 will remain (four are non town) which is a 1/2 chance and even better if we decide to test the voting ON one of them.


^ The above lists are due to change by the end of the day, but I think most people are agreeing to a Vodean lynch at this point and time.

[strike wolf]

I think you're neglecting the fact that not using double votes was part of the plan in making it clearer how many people were on the lynch.

As far as cases, I have one that I wanted to put together last night but got caught reading up on the H.P. Lovecraft mafia. give me a few hours and I should be able to finish it once I'm back from class.

[soundman]

First off sorry for not being very active the past few days. I had to go out of town and was very busy.

I think / has a good plan for weeding out the anti-town people. Jak fixed a few errors but I agree with / that we shouldn't use any stolen/extra votes in the lynches. That would just cause additional questions. I'm also wondering what the term "anti-town" means in this context. Is it those that are against town or those that are not aligned with town? I'm still a little unsure as to whether humans and angels are the same "alignment", though I believe they are on the same side. Make sense? If humans and angels are considered on the same alignment then we should lynch all of the anti-towns, but if it includes third party who are not specifically against town then we should do our best to get the scum roles first.

[vodean]

First off sorry for not being very active the past few days. I had to go out of town and was very busy.

I think / has a good plan for weeding out the anti-town people. Jak fixed a few errors but I agree with / that we shouldn't use any stolen/extra votes in the lynches. That would just cause additional questions. I'm also wondering what the term "anti-town" means in this context. Is it those that are against town or those that are not aligned with town? I'm still a little unsure as to whether humans and angels are the same "alignment", though I believe they are on the same side. Make sense? If humans and angels are considered on the same alignment then we should lynch all of the anti-towns, but if it includes third party who are not specifically against town then we should do our best to get the scum roles first.

thats what i've been saying. im sure there are some 3rd parties on the lynch. maybe cult if there is one.
While i think its fine that some of you want to lynch me, just remember that those of you who are going to lynch me just because are being really scummy, and are not making a case at all.

[strike wolf]

First off Vote Aage

Second, explanation:

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

I'm going to wait for Vio. As for Vodean's point, the scene seems to imply that the demons and angels are two seperate groups, but angels sound like they're town aligned and therefore rarely form a night talk team. Your theory reminds me of Briarsburg's Doctor Foundation, where 5 people had all the doc roles and could communicate with each other, but I doubt all angels are doctors.
As for outing angels, I think the angels are the only real threat to the demons as humans can't really do anything against them, story-meta-wise. I've read Faustus last week and it made me think of this game (and I wouldn't be surprised if that role was actually in it) but my point is that it might be that kind of situation. Angels and demons trying to win human souls for their own team. That might be the cultish reference we have been looking at. This is just hypothetical, theorycrafting if you will. Might even mean that no-one has a night kill which could explain why no-one died, but that game mechanic is so far from the standard mafia that I doubt Edoc has included it.
Then again, I might also be an angel (or even a demon) making this stuff up or paraphrasing my role PM, but this is what I think the game looks like. Remember the opening statements, "The players who have done the best will be able to choose their own faction" and "There will be some unique roles in this game, and it is certainly no vanilla". This doesn't prove anything, but I think the key to winning the game is figuring out the mechanics of the factions involved.

This post to me suggests that he is not an angel.

For the purposes of the theme I'm going to take a pot shot that we're playing in Roman Catholic mythology (although mythology isn't that different between Christians, and mostly depends on the age you're in rather than which communion you're part of) and the wikipedia page on Saints says this:

The Catholic Church teaches that it does not, in fact, make or create saints. Rather, it recognizes them.[27] In the Church, the title of Saint refers to a person who has been formally canonized (officially recognized) by the Catholic Church, and is therefore believed to be in Heaven.

As you can see, they're clearly referring to a person. The paragraph on Eastern Orthodoxy even goes as far as this:

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels. That shouldn't really matter, though, since people who are in heaven are by definition town aligned.

Jak, you're claiming William of York as angel? He was Archbishop and saint... A human. I kind of doubt that humans would be elevated to angelic status, but I'll accept the claim for now. Care to tell us what your role is, or is that classified information?

This post seems to confirm that he is not an angel and that he isn't a saint (his posts about Saints suggest he is unsure about what they qualify as in the game. If he was one than he should not have such questions and it most definitely suggests that he's not an angel as he should know whether angels got the saint title or not if he was).

Finally:

Now we are left with 9 to pressure for claims, even if I'm wrong, Violet has the benefit of doubt from me unless proven otherwise from a pr. So the list is down to 8 from my pov. Of these 8, I really think the next two best targets (and lately very scummy after 4 are mentioned to be non town on the list and the list got smaller just from me posting).

In my opinion these two have no real reason to fear if they are town because there's 5 town of the 9 left. But the fact that they seem to be panicking as of late, FOS Vodean and Jonty

Unvote DRoZ, Vote Vodean

Time to start spicing things up and get the kettle boiling until we hit the gold at the bottom.

In essence, slow advocation of a mass claim? Sure mass claims work, but they are also game ruiners in many a case - also never forget that scum gain just as much 'valuable' information as the town do on roles.

I would complain about the lack of length of your post if you weren't right. A mass claim on day 3 probably isn't going to yield anything either, btw... in a flavor high game like this I have no doubt scum is packed with false claims. We would just be providing scum with 5 town roles. Besides, it seems easy for Jak to say this since he already put all his cards on the table for reasons unknown very early; he has nothing to lose.

lmfao... Okay Vodean, your last three posts.

sounds like it should work out well.

there wasn't (nor isn't) even a plan yet, so I find it interesting that you already know that it will work out.

thats all well and good, but there were FOUR, not THREE anti-town on the BW. so even if you lynch all of us, and we ALL flip anti-town, you are still missing someone... and by then scum has an advantage anyway from the night, since we wont all flip anti-town, and even if we do, there will be some third parties.

Aside from the fact that f1fth said 'those people are most likely to be mafia' rather than 'these are all the scum in the group guys', this is a useless remark.

or you are scum, with info about a fellow scum that you are using to try and make us forget about you before we BW you too much

Yeah... who are you implying to be scum here, me or Sam? If Sam, that'd be very poor teamplay. If me, he could have never known who targeted me especially since I wasn't even aware of it.
FoS.

you are clearly skimming really badly... that was obviously directed to Droz, and the first one was right after someone posted a plan. The second one was a useless rebuttal to a useless argument.

It was directed a Droz alright, but the only way he could have gained that information is if either Sam (the watcher) or me (the watchee) were scum. Therefore I was wondering how you thought your conspiracy theory worked out, and found that it didn't. The plan you responded to was only /'s notion that we should have one. There isn't even one now. Your useless rebuttal indeed seems useless since you try to disprove a theory with irrelevant math. No skimming here.
As to you panicking, haven't seen that. The reply you gave which I responded to now seems fine. Nothing wrong with a wild skim accusation.


@Blake It appears that violet has made a reference to her win condition (probably here) which swayed Jak... although it seems kind of obvious that town will win if all demons are eliminated.

The last part in particular. He assumes but isn't sure? I am not sure about the rest of you but I see fairly clear evidence that Aage is not an angel, he certainly appears not to be town aligned human (I am still unsure to the exact break down on how humans are in this game) so if you aren't an angel and you aren't town aligned. Then you must be scum.

As far as Jonty, I'm not completely convinced but his latest defense is fine with me so I am not going to pursue for now.

[/]

I'm not sure why I mixed up the names, sorry, and the lsu and blake things weren't edited into the front page until 8 mins after I posted, and LSU original is still listed on the front page as I post this, sorry for the confusion.

I see no reason to use the double vote, we don't "need" any certain number of people voting, the one closest to lynch is automatically lynched regardless of the number of votes. Really, now that I think about it, if we want to avoid all ambiguity, we might all just unvote, let 3 or 4 players stack onto a wagon, and wait out the deadline.

[jak111]

I'm not sure why I mixed up the names, sorry, and the lsu and blake things weren't edited into the front page until 8 mins after I posted, and LSU original is still listed on the front page as I post this, sorry for the confusion.

I see no reason to use the double vote, we don't "need" any certain number of people voting, the one closest to lynch is automatically lynched regardless of the number of votes. Really, now that I think about it, if we want to avoid all ambiguity, we might all just unvote, let 3 or 4 players stack onto a wagon, and wait out the deadline.

No problem and actually I have sort of a plan to go with your top thing. If Edoc allows it and after we get who we want on a lynch, perhaps we can get a majority to ask for a deadline cut so we don't have to wait as long. Just a thought.

Although at the moment I think we should still lynch Vodean, Aage may be a good candidate for tomorrow or the next day. The quotes Strike posted are overwhelming evidence, while it can't pinpoint what faction he is, it may be a good idea that Aage is one vote that we control so we can learn more about which side he is on.

Notable mini fights.

Strike and Aage
Vodean and Jonty

The above four are on the list of four non town lynch wagon. I may be getting a wrong reading here or they may be playing me, but unless scum is bussing each other we may have two opposing sides in each fight.

[vodean]

I'm not sure why I mixed up the names, sorry, and the lsu and blake things weren't edited into the front page until 8 mins after I posted, and LSU original is still listed on the front page as I post this, sorry for the confusion.

I see no reason to use the double vote, we don't "need" any certain number of people voting, the one closest to lynch is automatically lynched regardless of the number of votes. Really, now that I think about it, if we want to avoid all ambiguity, we might all just unvote, let 3 or 4 players stack onto a wagon, and wait out the deadline.

No problem and actually I have sort of a plan to go with your top thing. If Edoc allows it and after we get who we want on a lynch, perhaps we can get a majority to ask for a deadline cut so we don't have to wait as long. Just a thought.

Although at the moment I think we should still lynch Vodean, Aage may be a good candidate for tomorrow or the next day. The quotes Strike posted are overwhelming evidence, while it can't pinpoint what faction he is, it may be a good idea that Aage is one vote that we control so we can learn more about which side he is on.

Notable mini fights.

Strike and Aage
Vodean and Jonty

The above four are on the list of four non town lynch wagon. I may be getting a wrong reading here or they may be playing me, but unless scum is bussing each other we may have two opposing sides in each fight.

im still waiting for someone to say WHY i should be lynched.

meanwhile, as for the case on aage, i agree, except that i believe that there may be more factions than just saints, angels, and demons. there could well be humans. just plain, ordinary humans. or there could be different types of saints, some of which are town-alligned, and some of which are third party. im quite certain of the second option.

[jak111]

jak has just outed himself. he claims that he is not a human. this means that we can safely pressure himself. i think (and correct me if i am wrong) that the angels are some sort of masonic group, where they can communicate at night, or can at least know who the others are. this means that we can safely pressure jak. if he is an angel, his role is probably important enough that the other angels will find some way to save him. if not, then he will be totally exposed as scum, and we will be able to kill him with no qualms. vote jak.

im still waiting for someone to say WHY i should be lynched.

meanwhile, as for the case on aage, i agree, except that i believe that there may be more factions than just saints, angels, and demons. there could well be humans. just plain, ordinary humans. or there could be different types of saints, some of which are town-alligned, and some of which are third party. im quite certain of the second option.

For similar reasons why the Aage case is good for tomorrow. You have outed yourself as 100% not angel and if you are a saint as well, I do not understand your

thats a fantastic case you have against me. i can feel the noose tightening around my neck. please, someone present a real case. like my earlier cases against jak, or against spiesr.

"real cases" against me earlier. If you are a saint you should know EXACTLY why I messed up earlier D2. If you were a saint you'd have the decency to CLAIM your person at the very least without this stalling. Or are you afraid? You're among the wagon that had 4 non towns in it, so if you were a saint, you'd claim in hopes to help town instead of hindering it by not giving it hindsight to the imposing lynch.

While you're still waiting for someone to tell you why you should be lynched, I'm waiting for you to tell me why you shouldn't.
~ You're 1/3 chance of being non town.
~ You're not an angel, so obviously not a huge loss if you are lynched because you would not claim.
~ You're "waiting for someone to tell me why I should be lynch" statement is more scummy than townish.

When your name shows up red on the scene, I'm going to have a huge smile on my face because you couldn't come up with an excuse to save your hide, instead you tried a failed attempt of reversing questions that are now backfiring onto you. I'm going to be blunt here and say it flatly. You are scum. Prove me wrong and claim your name at the very least for the moment, your role may be asked later on, but if your next post doesn't contain the saint's name, you're being hung today.

[jgordon1111]

Interesting /, care to explain why your list is for 1.) off, and 2.) Why some people are counted twice?

First off, I stole Victor's vote, not LSU's, don't get the wrong person's name in people's heads to benefit your scenario, so everywhere you say LSU people need to change in their heads to be Victor.

LSU was killed Night 1, and now he replaces Mr.S. But you also have Mr.S on your List B with LSU on List A.

show

Let me fix up your list and your suggestions a bit /.

show: A

show: B

Now, there are two ways we can go about doing this, something I think no one else is thinking of is that we can get a FULL town list and have 11-12 CLEARS with Chap's power (no non town on a list for example) effectively narrowing down our list to the other 12 which we then can mix with clears and get more clears or guilties among a few.

The other way is just mixing the two lists and getting few answers, taking days to complete and by then clears will be sniped off.

For the second, we could do something like / suggested but for the first I'm thinking something like

With 12 needed to lynch, the next lynch could have the following players on it.

1. Jak
2. Chapcrap
3. DRoZ
4. Violet
5. LSU
6. Commander 9 (If he uses both votes we'll only need 11 on the list)
7. /
8. Sam
9. Victor
10.

Well.. only got 9 people I think would be good to put on a clear list. To do this though every protection role possible will have to help Chap survive the night. The reason Chap is on the list is so that we don't risk hitting a mafia on the list and making the list harder to narrow mafia.

So if Commander uses his double vote we'd only need two more people on the list. With 11 cleared, only 11-12 unknowns will be left tomorrow.

This list will be efficient if we can get all town on the list for the following main reason.

We have 12 in question, if we can get ALL of the ones on this lynch cleared, with the people so far chosen we could narrow the four non towns to the following players.

Jonty
Safari
vodean
strike wolf
Soundman
Aage
nagerous
JGordon

8 of those 12 will remain (four are non town) which is a 1/2 chance and even better if we decide to test the voting ON one of them.


^ The above lists are due to change by the end of the day, but I think most people are agreeing to a Vodean lynch at this point and time.

on list one we can pretty much clear chap and Droz,no need for them to vote at all,lets leave commander 9 off the list just because of the two votes thing for now. lets just go with nine votes on the lynch and see what happens.

or on list 2 lets leave A and vodean off the list and make it six votes and see how the numbers change. 6 votes much easier to narrow down players that way. if it decreases well you know who is and who isnt alot faster.

Big lists are bad, smaller are better and easier to figure out who the odd players out are.

Vodean time to give that name and probably that role up

[safariguy5]

Honestly vodean, your 2-3 snarky little comments with regards to sam and jonty probably painted you in a worse light than it did them. The more you string out your claim the more it seems like you're stalling for time.

Also, if you're going to use the defense of us mislynching a saint, I would severely discount your reasoning. True, the role could have been easily proven, but the crucial thing is that there was a 1 night opportunity where he could have used it but either chose not to or forgot. Remember, a simple PM to someone stating what their name was could easily have cleared him. If you have a night action that should be used, then use it. Unless he was a vig or something, there are few town roles I can think of that wouldn't warrant use every night.

[vodean]

i never said outright that it was an active role. I am Paul of the cross, 3rd party commuter.
I realize that you may not want to keep me around, but my role also has a cryptic section about how St. Paul's following may provide me with information about some of the kills if certain things happen or something like that (again, very vague). the only info i got last night was that last night's kill was by the mafia.... im guessing that since St. Paul's following grew over time that my info will slowly get better.

[VioIet]

i never said outright that it was an active role. I am Paul of the cross, 3rd party commuter.
I realize that you may not want to keep me around, but my role also has a cryptic section about how St. Paul's following may provide me with information about some of the kills if certain things happen or something like that (again, very vague). the only info i got last night was that last night's kill was by the mafia.... im guessing that since St. Paul's following grew over time that my info will slowly get better.

Commuter is often a fake-claim. Doing a bit of bad meta here, but the commuter role has appeared 3 times in my past games, and all three times they were a fake-claim. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.

But even if Vodean is telling the truth, I don't see this as a role really worth saving.

I do like the case on aage, and I believe it's worth exploring tomorrow.

Unvote

Vote Vodean

[samgrossy]

i never said outright that it was an active role. I am Paul of the cross, 3rd party commuter.
I realize that you may not want to keep me around, but my role also has a cryptic section about how St. Paul's following may provide me with information about some of the kills if certain things happen or something like that (again, very vague). the only info i got last night was that last night's kill was by the mafia.... im guessing that since St. Paul's following grew over time that my info will slowly get better.

Does anyone feel like the last part of this statement is him admitting to being CL? Following grew over time?

Anyway, I think we have our man.

Since I am not on List 1, should I unvote?

Then, who do we ask to vote for vodean?

[aage]

I believe I'm on the wrong list so I'm not supposed to vote anyone, correct?

As for Vodean's point, the scene seems to imply that the demons and angels are two seperate groups, but angels sound like they're town aligned and therefore rarely form a night talk team. Your theory reminds me of Briarsburg's Doctor Foundation, where 5 people had all the doc roles and could communicate with each other, but I doubt all angels are doctors.
As for outing angels, I think the angels are the only real threat to the demons as humans can't really do anything against them, story-meta-wise. I've read Faustus last week and it made me think of this game (and I wouldn't be surprised if that role was actually in it) but my point is that it might be that kind of situation. Angels and demons trying to win human souls for their own team. That might be the cultish reference we have been looking at. This is just hypothetical, theorycrafting if you will. Might even mean that no-one has a night kill which could explain why no-one died, but that game mechanic is so far from the standard mafia that I doubt Edoc has included it.
Then again, I might also be an angel (or even a demon) making this stuff up or paraphrasing my role PM, but this is what I think the game looks like. Remember the opening statements, "The players who have done the best will be able to choose their own faction" and "There will be some unique roles in this game, and it is certainly no vanilla". This doesn't prove anything, but I think the key to winning the game is figuring out the mechanics of the factions involved.

This post to me suggests that he is not an angel.

I personally doubt there are many of those, actually. Seven arch angels tops, anyway, and the RCC only recognizes three of those by name. 'Fortunately', however, two of them already died who were not part of those three, so I think we can safely assume seven. Then, as far as I know, all claimed power roles so far are humans (and sometimes dead ones, in which case they are saints). Saying someone isn't an angel isn't as good an argument as you seem to think it is. Hence why I said that figuring the mechanics out is important, and I've been spending most of my time doing that. Obviously all the non-claimed players haven't said anything about their role, but I assume they want us to believe they're angels because those are definitely town and that would keep one out of the lynching spotlight for a little longer. Make no mistakes, though. There are only five more angels in this game if I'm not mistaken.

For the purposes of the theme I'm going to take a pot shot that we're playing in Roman Catholic mythology (although mythology isn't that different between Christians, and mostly depends on the age you're in rather than which communion you're part of) and the wikipedia page on Saints says this:

The Catholic Church teaches that it does not, in fact, make or create saints. Rather, it recognizes them.[27] In the Church, the title of Saint refers to a person who has been formally canonized (officially recognized) by the Catholic Church, and is therefore believed to be in Heaven.

As you can see, they're clearly referring to a person. The paragraph on Eastern Orthodoxy even goes as far as this:

In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".

Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels. That shouldn't really matter, though, since people who are in heaven are by definition town aligned.

Jak, you're claiming William of York as angel? He was Archbishop and saint... A human. I kind of doubt that humans would be elevated to angelic status, but I'll accept the claim for now. Care to tell us what your role is, or is that classified information?

This post seems to confirm that he is not an angel and that he isn't a saint (his posts about Saints suggest he is unsure about what they qualify as in the game. If he was one than he should not have such questions and it most definitely suggests that he's not an angel as he should know whether angels got the saint title or not if he was).

First off, in a large game as this I should never let my own role flavor influence my judgment of others. Secondly, obviously I'm not going to share what I think about my own role when I think Jak made a poor move claiming.
It simply isn't correct according to most webinfo I found that one could be a human, a saint and an angel at the same time, which I even quoted in that same quote you're responding to now: the bit where everyone except (arch)angels are called Saints. That is EOC though, so possibly irrelevant in this game. There are mentions of several "categories" of angels in the RCC article, but seeing there are already so many claimed humans leads me to believe those categories aren't in this game. Yes, I also am not part of any of these categories. I'll gladly admit that I would have never said that on day 1 because I know a lot more about the game now than I did back then. Back then, anything would've been possible and town could've been almost entirely made up of angels (although there'd be the problem of the lack of unknown angelic names), so claiming human would be an anomaly as we saw with Iliad. Right now, I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of angels, and I'm also pretty sure that it's a bad idea to claim that you are angel since scum has only been eliminating arch angels so far. It seems they don't like them.

Finally:

@Blake It appears that violet has made a reference to her win condition (probably here) which swayed Jak... although it seems kind of obvious that town will win if all demons are eliminated.

The last part in particular. He assumes but isn't sure? I am not sure about the rest of you but I see fairly clear evidence that Aage is not an angel, he certainly appears not to be town aligned human (I am still unsure to the exact break down on how humans are in this game) so if you aren't an angel and you aren't town aligned. Then you must be scum.

Why would you say I'm not aligned with town? Because I doubt Violet's clearance?Actually she got the win condition right in that post of hers. I'm simply saying it doesn't prove anything. Any scum can guess town win condition. "Kill all the non town people to win." "Demons probably aren't town." How hard was that? Hence my disbelief, and hence this remark.


I hope this suffices as explanation. Anything else?