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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:12 pm

Edoc, can we get a vote count?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby edocsil on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:15 pm

samgrossy wrote:Edoc, can we get a vote count?


There's about 4 votes between now and the last one, but yes.

Vote Count

Jak (5) ~ shaggy, pcm, aage, cm5, vodean, Sam
Vodean (3) ~ lsu, jonty, saf
Iliad (1) ~ / Fifth
Mr. S (12 ~ Jak ???
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby gregwolf121 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:25 pm

well first off haven't been posting because i got swamped by college, but now that its calmed down a bit ill put in my two cents, from what i remember of my reading the biggest case, ie the most arguing is centered around jak, now i don't remember all the specific arguements but i would agree that jak your not always responding to them, it seems to me that you claim/reply enough to take the edge off the criticism but the root of the problem still exists, right now jak seems the scummiest to me.
so i shall vote jak
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby safariguy5 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:19 pm

I'm trying to decide how much of the discussion revolving around jak is just his playstyle and how much is actually questionable.

I will say that any role that is vote manipulative is more likely town in my book. However, questioning a claimed investigative as being unhelpful and scummy is too big a leap in my book.

Let's look at gregwolf's Day 2 posts. I'm going to ignore his Day 1 posts because they tend to be jokey in nature and not necessarily a good gauge of activity.

gregwolf121 wrote:well i can't add to the others interpretation of the night scene, but i hope its a good sign that no ones dead


Fluff. I doubt anyone barring edoc the mod can really interpret anything particularly useful out of that scene.

gregwolf121 wrote:well i agree that we shouldn't rush a no lynch, but i also think its a bad idea to vote jak at this point, cause his wagon growing to big to fast, but what we need to look into are cases, true jak needs to explain a bit more, but i don't recall there being any other major leads yesterday, i should go back and check though.


Agreeing that a no lynch is bad given the day is young is pretty much a given. Says he notices bandwagonning on the initial jak pressure but doesn't call anyone out via a FOS or vote them.

gregwolf121 wrote:first off sorry for inactivity internet is nonexistant in my apartment, but terminology wise i believe saint means holy, thus good, and ill need time to catch up so i won't vote, and yeah


Game meta/speculation and an inactivity check.

gregwolf121 wrote:well first off haven't been posting because i got swamped by college, but now that its calmed down a bit ill put in my two cents, from what i remember of my reading the biggest case, ie the most arguing is centered around jak, now i don't remember all the specific arguements but i would agree that jak your not always responding to them, it seems to me that you claim/reply enough to take the edge off the criticism but the root of the problem still exists, right now jak seems the scummiest to me.
so i shall vote jak


Now this one is the real offender.

First, admission of skimming. Second, restating what aage just posted. Third a bandwagon vote based on feelings of scumminess that is basically implied to be supported by aage's post. Which is to say supported by really nothing. Which makes it a clear bandwagon vote. Seriously greg, you're an old player, you really should be better than this.

unvote vote gregwolf
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby F1fth on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:35 am

aage wrote:
F1fth wrote:@aage - how do we know that Iliad even had that second vote to begin with? It could be his role is to conceal his vote and the ??? vote was simply his first and only vote. This sounds like it would be a scum role to me, and I think Iliad would know this. That makes it all the more suspicious that his second vote just so happened to be "stolen" before he ever confirmed he had two. As far as I'm concerned, Iliad is by no means confirmed despite his claim of Saint Elisabeth (which he has thus far refused to elaborate on as per /'s request).
How do we know --> we don't, except that he used an anonymous vote nearly immediately after he announced that he would. The day simply ended before Iliad "proved" he had two votes. Obviously his own vote was stolen by someone who didn't want him to have two votes. If I were a vote stealer, my first and foremost target would be a doublevoter because they are usually town aligned (which is the party that scum tries to undermine) and I might even get both votes.
Assuming that Iliad's claim is true, and a vote stealer targeted him last night and stole his ???-vote, there is nothing he can do today to prove that this ???-vote was stolen, he can only claim. Which he did.
Assuming that Iliad's claim is false, and your theory about concealing his vote is true, he probably lied about his vote getting stolen. Vote concealment would obviously be an option because Iliad never voted in the thread to put a ???-vote on VS, so it seems logical that if he would vote in the thread his vote would show up as normal (since almost all power roles are optional). In that case he would probably claim that he lost his ???-vote during the night. Which he did.
It seems to me that there is no different outcome to either scenario, and therefore I believe that pursuing it right now serves no purpose.

That was a bit of a rhetorical question but thanks for answering honestly. :D I agree with just about everything you posted except the last part where pursuing Iliad would be fruitless. If we press Iliad, he won't feel quite so comfortable lurking as he has been and may contribute more to the game. That benefits us whether he's town or scum and gives us a little more of the evidence we desire. However, now that I've said all this I'll admit a vote on him won't do much good since my point and intentions are clear. Unvote Iliad. Hopefully he'll start posting more and we can confirm him as a double voter tomorrow, barring any misfortune during the night.

As for Safari's points on gregwolf, I agree on all counts -- especially about the extremely weak bandwagon vote. Greg, you know you don't need to remember when you can just read the last few pages, right? Saying you can't remember just doesn't fly, nor does voting based on your lapse of memory. Vote Gregwolf
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:08 am

edocsil wrote:
samgrossy wrote:Edoc, can we get a vote count?


There's about 4 votes between now and the last one, but yes.

Vote Count

Jak (5) ~ shaggy, pcm, aage, cm5, vodean, Sam
Vodean (3) ~ lsu, jonty, saf
Iliad (1) ~ / Fifth
Mr. S (12 ~ Jak ???



Thanks.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby jonty125 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:02 am

unvote vote gregwolf for skimming, not adding anything to the discussion, and the "memory" thing, its not a memory game, the pages are one click away.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby soundman on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:15 pm

I've been on the fence about Jak. But Greg's recent post against him is just flat out bad. Voting for him just because the most arguing has been around him is not a very good reason to vote. Vote Greg.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby jak111 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:50 pm

aage wrote:Secondly, and here is where my post becomes relevant to the game again. In my post I clearly defined the three issues I have with your post, just as I'm doing here, by using linking words. All that would be required of you is either to answer the three parts separately, or give a general answer to the post I made, which cannot be very hard since the part directed to you is what, five lines long? Could you try again?

jak111 wrote:The fact that me being confused about who WIlliam of York was is being used against what I'm putting out on the table, means somebody gotta be covering something up, I cleared that a while back that I didn't know who he was so I was confused if I was a saint or an angel or whatever.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me it seems you're saying that you didn't read your role pm. Also, you say you cleared something while it seems there are several people who disagree. That probably means you didn't clear it as well as you thought you did. As long as you keep saying "I already did that", your accusers will keep using the same arguments against you. That does not mean your accusers are flawed, it means your clearance is flawed. In fact, the flaw has been pointed out. Repeatedly.

Then I must correct you, I read my role pm, but it neither mentions angel nor saint. I've stated that it only mentions killing demons to win (which seemed like an angel thing to me, since it did not say threats to town as usual). So yes, I have cleared it up when I mentioned it before, let me link you. "William of York sounded like some Angel so I said Angel, plus [b]it doesn't mention anything besides killing the demons"[/b]

jak111 wrote:Is my case on Mr.Squirrel perfect? Hell no, he's too good at covering his bases to let a slip out easy. Are you gonna understand my logic without going back and re-reading what I am talking about? Probably not, considering I'm posting in a way that makes sense to me. But if you never WIFOM and you never question what it does, then essentially as long as the player is good enough to make active posts you will not question them. Mr.Squirrel is good at covering his bases in each post, I know this and hopefully so do some of you. A few others are also good at covering your bases when posting, but if Mr.Squirrel only finds angels, unless an angel wants to say they are third party or cult or whatever and we are assuming angels are town, then isn't that a bad power? Oh wait, that's right, I can't use logic because as my grasp of the present roles and alignments increase people will brush it off with past posts, sorry, I forgot. :roll:

Oh look, there is zero evidence against player X. He must be a scum masterbrain! *more wifom*
I think that the mistake you made in your reasoning is that a cop who only finds innocent people is useless to town. As Mr. Squirrel already demonstrated in his attempt to set Violet up, and as Strike Wolf repeatedly explained in his posts (which you seem to ignore, although I sure hope that's not the case) his power could easily have been used by town (Angels) to filter out non-angels for questioning, and clear angels from suspicion. Information is power, and public information is town power.
Moreover I find it doubtful that Mr. S would claim his role immediately on day 2 while he was never under any suspicion and would gain nothing by providing town with information and a public claim. As you can see, VioIet has not been lynched. If Mr. Squirrel were the masterbrain you say he is, he would never have undertaken such action.

^ Or to get in there early. One thing I don't like about Mr.Squirrel's claim is so far we know it finds Angels. People keep arguing that Angels are either town or town power roles, but if that's so why have a role to out them and not a role to be a cop? Unless he's a half working cop that can only find part of town. So if you believe Mr.Squirrel then you must either think Angels are power roles and he is non town, or Angels are 3rd party/cult and he is town. If you don't believe Mr.Squirrel <.< Well then you probably should FOS him. But with just "Whether they are angel or not" either means Angels aren't good, or he isn't. (Most likely). But I'll leave it with investigative roles to handle tonight if they so desire.

I also find it hilarious that in the upper quote you told me to go back and reread, while in the second quote you admit that it won't help.

^ Not what I meant at all. I meant that my newer posts will not hold any value because people will only think of my older posts if I made a mistake on who I was.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:54 pm

gregwolf121 wrote:well first off haven't been posting because i got swamped by college, but now that its calmed down a bit ill put in my two cents, from what i remember of my reading the biggest case, ie the most arguing is centered around jak, now i don't remember all the specific arguements but i would agree that jak your not always responding to them, it seems to me that you claim/reply enough to take the edge off the criticism but the root of the problem still exists, right now jak seems the scummiest to me.
so i shall vote jak


While my vote stays where it is, this is almost a bad enough post to cause me to change my vote because I don't want to be associated with it. UGH.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby gregwolf121 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:27 pm

safariguy5 wrote:I'm trying to decide how much of the discussion revolving around jak is just his playstyle and how much is actually questionable.

I will say that any role that is vote manipulative is more likely town in my book. However, questioning a claimed investigative as being unhelpful and scummy is too big a leap in my book.

Let's look at gregwolf's Day 2 posts. I'm going to ignore his Day 1 posts because they tend to be jokey in nature and not necessarily a good gauge of activity.

gregwolf121 wrote:well i can't add to the others interpretation of the night scene, but i hope its a good sign that no ones dead


Fluff. I doubt anyone barring edoc the mod can really interpret anything particularly useful out of that scene.
agreed it was

gregwolf121 wrote:well i agree that we shouldn't rush a no lynch, but i also think its a bad idea to vote jak at this point, cause his wagon growing to big to fast, but what we need to look into are cases, true jak needs to explain a bit more, but i don't recall there being any other major leads yesterday, i should go back and check though.


Agreeing that a no lynch is bad given the day is young is pretty much a given. Says he notices bandwagonning on the initial jak pressure but doesn't call anyone out via a FOS or vote them.
no i didn't FOS or vote any because in my opinion none were at that level

gregwolf121 wrote:first off sorry for inactivity internet is nonexistant in my apartment, but terminology wise i believe saint means holy, thus good, and ill need time to catch up so i won't vote, and yeah


Game meta/speculation and an inactivity check.

gregwolf121 wrote:well first off haven't been posting because i got swamped by college, but now that its calmed down a bit ill put in my two cents, from what i remember of my reading the biggest case, ie the most arguing is centered around jak, now i don't remember all the specific arguements but i would agree that jak your not always responding to them, it seems to me that you claim/reply enough to take the edge off the criticism but the root of the problem still exists, right now jak seems the scummiest to me.
so i shall vote jak


Now this one is the real offender.

First, admission of skimming. Second, restating what aage just posted. Third a bandwagon vote based on feelings of scumminess that is basically implied to be supported by aage's post. Which is to say supported by really nothing. Which makes it a clear bandwagon vote. Seriously greg, you're an old player, you really should be better than this.
skimming maybe but i did read all the posts, didn't necessarily study them out or read the entire day before i posted, i read what had been added since i last looked at the thread and went with what i remembered of the discussion before, and i think honesty is the best policy so no i haven't been spending a lot of time on the thread, i generally get on once a day, internet willing, and read what has been posted and add what i think needs be said, i do see the part where you link what i said to copying aage, wasn't mine intention, just cause two scientists get the same result on a test doesn't mean one copied the other, it means they went through the same process and arrived at the same result, as i was reading and thinking back on what had been said, jak is the only one that has stood out to me, my reason for the vote was as i said that in my opinion jak has only only claimed enough to take off the edge but the problem/concerns are still there

unvote vote gregwolf

F1fth wrote:
As for Safari's points on gregwolf, I agree on all counts -- especially about the extremely weak bandwagon vote. Greg, you know you don't need to remember when you can just read the last few pages, right? Saying you can't remember just doesn't fly, nor does voting based on your lapse of memory. Vote Gregwolf

i wasn't voting on a memory lapse i voted on what stood out to me from what i remembered of the discussion. i feel that some remembrance of the day is needed cause it has been more than a few pages, i could reread all the previous pages but i didn't think it necessary

in general i feel that my post was misunderstod, my reason for voting jak is that
gregwolf121 wrote:well first off haven't been posting because i got swamped by college, but now that its calmed down a bit ill put in my two cents, from what i remember of my reading the biggest case, ie the most arguing is centered around jak, now i don't remember all the specific arguements but i would agree that jak your not always responding to them, it seems to me that you claim/reply enough to take the edge off the criticism but the root of the problem still exists, right now jak seems the scummiest to me.
so i shall vote jak

so to explain, wasn't posting alot cause of college, reason 5 papers due in a week, wasn't fun and don't want to ever have to do it again, by biggest case and arguing, i would say around 60% of the posts for day 2 are about jak, meaning hes in the limelight, as i said i don't remember every grievance that was brought up but what i do recall is that none were fully answered, at least to my taste.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby strike wolf on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:35 pm

YaY! Annoying orange text.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby VioIet on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:22 am

gregwolf121 wrote:well first off haven't been posting because i got swamped by college, but now that its calmed down a bit ill put in my two cents, from what i remember of my reading the biggest case, ie the most arguing is centered around jak, now i don't remember all the specific arguements but i would agree that jak your not always responding to them, it seems to me that you claim/reply enough to take the edge off the criticism but the root of the problem still exists, right now jak seems the scummiest to me.
so i shall vote jak


Something about this post doesn't sound right to me. I know it was a post just of the sake of posting, but I'm starting to get an anti-town feel from greg.

Vote Greg

Also, is nagerous still in this game? He may really need to be replaced.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby jonty125 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:12 am

strike wolf wrote:YaY! Annoying orange text.


+1
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:20 am

strike wolf wrote:YaY! Annoying orange text.

I hope Saf will reply in yellow.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby safariguy5 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:15 pm

aage wrote:
strike wolf wrote:YaY! Annoying orange text.

I hope Saf will reply in yellow.

Lol, it would probably be terribly unfair to the somewhat colorblind people should any be playing.

But call a spade a spade, greg's vote was pretty obviously a bandwagon, and for him to argue that he just coincidentally came up with the exact same case on jak as aage is pretty hard for me to believe.

This generally "safe" play has me thinking greg may be trying to fly under the radar here. Put enough pressure on jak to appear active, but not so much that should jak flip town, he would be blamed as one of the people responsible for pushing a lynch.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby nagerous on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:35 pm

VioIet wrote:
gregwolf121 wrote:well first off haven't been posting because i got swamped by college, but now that its calmed down a bit ill put in my two cents, from what i remember of my reading the biggest case, ie the most arguing is centered around jak, now i don't remember all the specific arguements but i would agree that jak your not always responding to them, it seems to me that you claim/reply enough to take the edge off the criticism but the root of the problem still exists, right now jak seems the scummiest to me.
so i shall vote jak


Something about this post doesn't sound right to me. I know it was a post just of the sake of posting, but I'm starting to get an anti-town feel from greg.

Vote Greg

Also, is nagerous still in this game? He may really need to be replaced.


Yeah I am, I do need to read up and I don't want to be one of those guys that has to be replaced in each game. Personally, gregwolf's post strikes me as pretty off - he doesn't remember the specifics but thinks there was a vague case about jak not responding to points so voted for him? That's pretty weak shit in my eyes and comes across as a desperate attempt at bandwagoning.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby LSU Tiger Josh on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:21 pm

While I still like my vote on Vodean since he is obviously not an angel, I am also getting that vibe from Greg and wouldn't mind putting the pressure there. Either way, I don't want another no lynch at this point since it'll at least help us try to figure out the game mechanics based upon what we turn up.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:45 pm

Guys... I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I am sure that most of you know that we are reaching deadline. Day 2 started on Sept 21 and each day lasts 14 days according to the rules.

We need to really make a decision here. If people don't check in I can't really help it. But here goes.

If we don't get some good discussion going Jak is going to be a lynch target. For me, that's fine b/c I have been the biggest proponent of his lynch.

But there some inactives in this game.

Going down the player list:
Illiad
Shaggy
DRoZ

Also, there are people that are posting, but not giving much, like Sully.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:50 pm

Sorry, mistakenly hit submit before I finished my thought

So if you haven't voted, let your vote be heard. Day only will last another day or so. At last vote count only 10 of us have voted. And some of those may have been double votes or stolen votes or some other something. 15 people don't want to place a vote???

Everyone has lots of choices. Use them
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:03 am

unvote vote greg
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby vodean on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:58 am

y'all aint down for pressuring jak?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby samgrossy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:14 am

vodean wrote:y'all aint down for pressuring jak?


I am.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby aage on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:02 am

vodean wrote:y'all aint down for pressuring jak?

Pressuring Jak further won't do any good, he already claimed everything he can claim. If he's lying, pressuring doesn't help. :/
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D2 25/25

Postby vodean on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:03 am

aage wrote:
vodean wrote:y'all aint down for pressuring jak?

Pressuring Jak further won't do any good, he already claimed everything he can claim. If he's lying, pressuring doesn't help. :/

i can get him to crack. ill need some electrodes and a car battery. and access to his testicles.
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