Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

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Why do you assume it was the secret vote stolen, strike? I don't believe that was ever confirmed.

[aage]

Why do you assume it was the secret vote stolen, strike? I don't believe that was ever confirmed.

Maybe because that's what Iliad said happened?

[strike wolf]

Actually I looked back and it appears that / was right. He never confirmed which vote was stolen. I think someone else said that and I misremembered it as Iliad saying it himself.

[nagerous]

I generally agree with strike's latest post.

I think it's kind of ironic how many people bandwagon greg for bandwagoning...

I think that vodean is acting strangely.

I already said that I thought we should go after an inactive or one of the people in the middle of things. To be sure, greg was not one of the people I was thinking. However, as always, I appreciate some good Day 1, er Day 1: The Sequel, pressure. So, I will vote greg for pressure if something hasn't happened the next time I check in.

It is impossible to get a lynch without ultimately bandwagoning taking place, especially in a 25 player game some peoples' voting posts will be weaker than others. What people didn't like about gregwolf's post was that it was not well thought out and his reasons for voting seemed insincere.

[jak111]

Looks like I didn't miss too much (Check vacation thread later to see why I was inactive) but it seems most people have stated what I was gonna use to defend myself against my aggressors, I have been open about it and it has been confirmed I have Victor's vote. Scum doing a move like that would be pretty damn risky. I feel like we still haven't gotten anywhere's even with my outting of it.

Sam seems dead set on me ;o but I can deal with that. People are NOW bandwagoning Greg, so somehow the word hypocrites comes to mind when they all state the same reasons after another. Just saying.

[pancakemix]

True enough Pancake. I mentioned that earlier as far as two Vote Stealers. However I won't give it 50/50 odds.

First, we have no confirmation that Illiad's vote really was stolen (and since it was his secret vote we really can't get confirmation). I would tend to believe him but there isn't confirmation.

Second, Jak has come forward and admitted to stealing Victor's however no one has come forward to admit that they stole Iliad's. So when a Vote Stealer willingly comes forward admitting it, I tend to believe them over the clandestine stealer.

It's still more of a 75/25 split.

On your first point, that's a terribly silly thing to lie about, especially for someone who is presumed to be town. If it were false, what would be gained from us believing a lie?

On your second, there are a number of things to consider. First: Vote stealer is primarily considered pro-town. One would have to assume Jak would know this, because he's smart. But taking that into account, it's also a fact he might try to use to his advantage. He's certainly not beyond complex schemes and tricks (see: the NL debacle earlier today). So I'm not willing to take his claim at face value, pretty much because I always think there's a chance he's up to no good.

Fastposted by jak. Doesn't really change what I was gonna say.

[jak111]

On your first point, that's a terribly silly thing to lie about, especially for someone who is presumed to be town. If it were false, what would be gained from us believing a lie?

Interesting Pancake, does it not cross your mind that there may be no other vote stealer? It's a risky move but one he pulled off well if he isn't who he says he is. The gain? Town credit, you know this is true. Scum want town credit to zip on by.

Although what has me REALLY thinking is this... for those who said earlier there may not be a cult, there HAVE to be third parties out there of some kind. Otherwise you're looking at a balance of 6-8 scum.. which would be terribly overpowered. But the reason why I bring this note up is I want the people who are town to be watching for a group thing going on. In this game I will say MINIMUM of 5 scum. 2-3 of them are bound to be teaming up somewhere to make a townie look scummy.

For today, my final vote is going on a guy I find is just getting by by one liners. Whether he's a VT, third party, or scum, we need active people in the days to come.

Unvote, Vote Vodean (My second vote will be placed here too)

There's a couple of reasons behind this if people care to check.
~Lately posts have been sort of random and non contributing.
~One liners have been his motto for the past 2 weeks or so.
~His post on me not being an angel so therefore being scum when he voted me when I outed myself seems a bit odd. It means he isn't a human 100% So whether he's an angel, demon, or 3rd party we will get to finally start unraveling some of the mysteries.

For town reads, this is what I got.
~Violet
~Sam
~/

So 3 clears in my books.

Gonna go through and check who else is getting by with one-liners. Those are the ones that have a huge chance of being non town or at least non essential to town if we mislynch.

[jonty125]

Sam seems dead set on me ;o but I can deal with that. People are NOW bandwagoning Greg, so somehow the word hypocrites comes to mind when they all state the same reasons after another. Just saying.

This is a 25 player game, people have to BW to get a lynch.

[pancakemix]

Interesting Pancake, does it not cross your mind that there may be no other vote stealer? It's a risky move but one he pulled off well if he isn't who he says he is. The gain? Town credit, you know this is true. Scum want town credit to zip on by.

There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to start. We already know he's a double voter. He proved that. That gives him all the town credit he needs. Lying about it is just kinda pouring it on too thickly. That's also a terribly harebrained scheme, the kind that I just attributed to you in my last post (a part of which you did not address). If it's the kind of thing you think someone else would try to do, it's probably something that you would try to do to.

Now, I thought I was pretty clear on all of the above in my last few posts, but either I was wrong or you weren't paying attention. And I know I cover my points well in all my posts.

[vodean]

On your first point, that's a terribly silly thing to lie about, especially for someone who is presumed to be town. If it were false, what would be gained from us believing a lie?

Interesting Pancake, does it not cross your mind that there may be no other vote stealer? It's a risky move but one he pulled off well if he isn't who he says he is. The gain? Town credit, you know this is true. Scum want town credit to zip on by.you arent even really making any sense here. you are saying that the other person would want to look town by claiming... so you claimed to get town cred. thats what you're saying, correct? that's what it sounds like.

Although what has me REALLY thinking is this... for those who said earlier there may not be a cult, there HAVE to be third parties out there of some kind. Otherwise you're looking at a balance of 6-8 scum.. which would be terribly overpowered. But the reason why I bring this note up is I want the people who are town to be watching for a group thing going on. In this game I will say MINIMUM of 5 scum. 2-3 of them are bound to be teaming up somewhere to make a townie look scummy.

For today, my final vote is going on a guy I find is just getting by by one liners. Whether he's a VT, third party, or scum, we need active people in the days to come.

Unvote, Vote Vodean (My second vote will be placed here too)

There's a couple of reasons behind this if people care to check.
~Lately posts have been sort of random and non contributing.school, work, sports. im a busy man. i also live several lives outside of CC, as blasphemous as that may sound.
~One liners have been his motto for the past 2 weeks or so. see above. youve said the same thing twice, hoping people will see two separate arguments and hop on your BW.
~His post on me not being an angel so therefore being scum when he voted me when I outed myself seems a bit odd. It means he isn't a human 100% So whether he's an angel, demon, or 3rd party we will get to finally start unraveling some of the mysteries.you said you werent human. i then inferred that since you didnt seem to be an angel, you must be a demon (i think 3rd parties are likely all human). stop twisting our words. you are clearly lying, and trying to redirect and mislead town. the question is what you are leading us away from? scumbuddies?

For town reads, this is what I got.
~Violet
~Sam
~/

So 3 clears in my books.

Gonna go through and check who else is getting by with one-liners. Those are the ones that have a huge chance of being non town or at least non essential to town if we mislynch.

you are totally screwing yourself over. you are using straw man argument (deliberately modifying our arguments to make them easier to attack). the majority of my argument is in color above. see, now you incited me, and im making a longer post despite working 9 hours a day on weekends and having school and a club sport to deal with on top of that.
This case against jak reminds me of my case against clever in matrix mafia. after weeks of no one believing me, we lynched him and he flipped scum.

[safariguy5]

On your first point, that's a terribly silly thing to lie about, especially for someone who is presumed to be town. If it were false, what would be gained from us believing a lie?

Interesting Pancake, does it not cross your mind that there may be no other vote stealer? It's a risky move but one he pulled off well if he isn't who he says he is. The gain? Town credit, you know this is true. Scum want town credit to zip on by.

Although what has me REALLY thinking is this... for those who said earlier there may not be a cult, there HAVE to be third parties out there of some kind. Otherwise you're looking at a balance of 6-8 scum.. which would be terribly overpowered. But the reason why I bring this note up is I want the people who are town to be watching for a group thing going on. In this game I will say MINIMUM of 5 scum. 2-3 of them are bound to be teaming up somewhere to make a townie look scummy.

For today, my final vote is going on a guy I find is just getting by by one liners. Whether he's a VT, third party, or scum, we need active people in the days to come.

Unvote, Vote Vodean (My second vote will be placed here too)

There's a couple of reasons behind this if people care to check.
~Lately posts have been sort of random and non contributing.
~One liners have been his motto for the past 2 weeks or so.
~His post on me not being an angel so therefore being scum when he voted me when I outed myself seems a bit odd. It means he isn't a human 100% So whether he's an angel, demon, or 3rd party we will get to finally start unraveling some of the mysteries.

For town reads, this is what I got.
~Violet
~Sam
~/

So 3 clears in my books.

Gonna go through and check who else is getting by with one-liners. Those are the ones that have a huge chance of being non town or at least non essential to town if we mislynch.

I think that claiming there has to be third party is a bit much of a Meta leap. While I think the possibility of a survivor or SKer or something is possible based on the size, to say that they have to be there otherwise mafia would be too big is rather illogical. If mafia is a substantial sized faction, then the mod would balance it as such. Whether or not this is an NV game is not important. Not every mafia role has to be a power role or even one with night actions. We could have one-shot mafia roles or just plain mafia goons to even out the balance.

[jak111]

Sam seems dead set on me ;o but I can deal with that. People are NOW bandwagoning Greg, so somehow the word hypocrites comes to mind when they all state the same reasons after another. Just saying.

This is a 25 player game, people have to BW to get a lynch.

Read again, they're hypocrites for doing the exact same thing to him as for their reason to vote him. Illogical to believe that has nothing suspicious looming about it.

Interesting Pancake, does it not cross your mind that there may be no other vote stealer? It's a risky move but one he pulled off well if he isn't who he says he is. The gain? Town credit, you know this is true. Scum want town credit to zip on by.

There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to start. We already know he's a double voter. He proved that. That gives him all the town credit he needs. Lying about it is just kinda pouring it on too thickly. That's also a terribly harebrained scheme, the kind that I just attributed to you in my last post (a part of which you did not address). If it's the kind of thing you think someone else would try to do, it's probably something that you would try to do to.

Now, I thought I was pretty clear on all of the above in my last few posts, but either I was wrong or you weren't paying attention. And I know I cover my points well in all my posts.

Not saying he's NOT a double voter. But I'm saying it IS a possibility that the mod let him get away with a fake claim by "noting" it. Whether that is true or not is not 100% known to us, but the possibility of it is still there. Even if he's telling the truth about his role, as many point out, are two double-ish voters the same faction or opposite factions? If the second, then he'd be around the scum lines, if the first, he may be town.

Reply to Vodean

Check again, the first two statements are different, one is not contributing by posting nonsense in your earlier posts lately, the other is for posting only one liners even when you DO try to add something to the conversation. Both are different because you do not need one for the other.

I did not claim to receive town cred, I claimed because Illiad claimed to have his vote taken away/stolen, and I didn't do it, so either he was lying or there's another in play here.

Glad you're busy, I'm busy as well, does not mean I must post off topic posts like your one talking about something to do with my testicles


Safari, do you not agree that in most likely hood there is a third party in play whether it be survivors, cult, 2nd mafia, or sk just due to the shear numbers? If you don't meta a bit then your past experience with anyone or anything is a waste to think upon. The most likely set-ups I see going on without saying who's what are.

Set-up 1
5-6 Mafia
2 Third Party
Rest town.

Set-up 2
4 mafia
4 second mafia
Rest town.

Set-up 3
5 mafia
Cult
Rest town


With perhaps a few added roles in any of those setups. The chance of there being ONLY mafia and town are very low and you know that's a long shot to say it's meta to believe so.

[strike wolf]

Altering the game so a scum could get away with a fake claim would be bastard modding. Edoc is not a bastard mod.

[F1fth]

Sam seems dead set on me ;o but I can deal with that. People are NOW bandwagoning Greg, so somehow the word hypocrites comes to mind when they all state the same reasons after another. Just saying.

This is a 25 player game, people have to BW to get a lynch.

Read again, they're hypocrites for doing the exact same thing to him as for their reason to vote him. Illogical to believe that has nothing suspicious looming about it.

@jak - read again (I'll be helpful and actually link you the material I want you to read instead making a vague dismissal):

It is impossible to get a lynch without ultimately bandwagoning taking place, especially in a 25 player game some peoples' voting posts will be weaker than others. What people didn't like about gregwolf's post was that it was not well thought out and his reasons for voting seemed insincere.

This is simply a reality of the game. A bandwagon is not inherently scummy. There are guaranteed to be a significant number of townies on any lynch vote whether or not a mafioso dies. The information to be gleaned if any from votes lies in the context in which they are made. Your posts tend to be light on context and heavy on theory.

I did not claim to receive town cred, I claimed because Illiad claimed to have his vote taken away/stolen, and I didn't do it, so either he was lying or there's another in play here.

I don't buy this. The bolded part was obvious and would not change whether or not you claimed. Of course he's either lying or he's telling the truth... that's a freaking tautology! So what could your claim have been for other than "town cred"?

Safari, do you not agree that in most likely hood there is a third party in play whether it be survivors, cult, 2nd mafia, or sk just due to the shear numbers? If you don't meta a bit then your past experience with anyone or anything is a waste to think upon. The most likely set-ups I see going on without saying who's what are.

[...]

With perhaps a few added roles in any of those setups. The chance of there being ONLY mafia and town are very low and you know that's a long shot to say it's meta to believe so.

I didn't see safari say he thought otherwise, but merely that he thought it was unfounded to claim that third party must exist. You yourself just admitted that there is indeed a chance of it being possible and I would agree with safari that the possibility should not be completely discounted in a game themed on the dichotomy of heaven and hell.


TL;DR I disagree, jak.

[jgordon1111]

Sam seems dead set on me ;o but I can deal with that. People are NOW bandwagoning Greg, so somehow the word hypocrites comes to mind when they all state the same reasons after another. Just saying.

This is a 25 player game, people have to BW to get a lynch.

Read again, they're hypocrites for doing the exact same thing to him as for their reason to vote him. Illogical to believe that has nothing suspicious looming about it.

Interesting Pancake, does it not cross your mind that there may be no other vote stealer? It's a risky move but one he pulled off well if he isn't who he says he is. The gain? Town credit, you know this is true. Scum want town credit to zip on by.

There are so many things wrong with this I don't know where to start. We already know he's a double voter. He proved that. That gives him all the town credit he needs. Lying about it is just kinda pouring it on too thickly. That's also a terribly harebrained scheme, the kind that I just attributed to you in my last post (a part of which you did not address). If it's the kind of thing you think someone else would try to do, it's probably something that you would try to do to.

Now, I thought I was pretty clear on all of the above in my last few posts, but either I was wrong or you weren't paying attention. And I know I cover my points well in all my posts.

Not saying he's NOT a double voter. But I'm saying it IS a possibility that the mod let him get away with a fake claim by "noting" it. Whether that is true or not is not 100% known to us, but the possibility of it is still there. Even if he's telling the truth about his role, as many point out, are two double-ish voters the same faction or opposite factions? If the second, then he'd be around the scum lines, if the first, he may be town.

Reply to Vodean

Check again, the first two statements are different, one is not contributing by posting nonsense in your earlier posts lately, the other is for posting only one liners even when you DO try to add something to the conversation. Both are different because you do not need one for the other.

I did not claim to receive town cred, I claimed because Illiad claimed to have his vote taken away/stolen, and I didn't do it, so either he was lying or there's another in play here.

Glad you're busy, I'm busy as well, does not mean I must post off topic posts like your one talking about something to do with my testicles


Safari, do you not agree that in most likely hood there is a third party in play whether it be survivors, cult, 2nd mafia, or sk just due to the shear numbers? If you don't meta a bit then your past experience with anyone or anything is a waste to think upon. The most likely set-ups I see going on without saying who's what are.

Set-up 1
5-6 Mafia
2 Third Party
Rest town.

Set-up 2
4 mafia
4 second mafia
Rest town.

Set-up 3
5 mafia
Cult
Rest town


With perhaps a few added roles in any of those setups. The chance of there being ONLY mafia and town are very low and you know that's a long shot to say it's meta to believe so.

Jak how very unlike you in many aspects,you supporting a player that voted for you with such undeniable lack of logic it boggled the mind. Yet you now are saying that those who are voting him are hypocrites and bandwagoners.

You know me I hate BW's,but his reasons for voting you were based on sheer bad play on his behalf,and for you to call out others for BW'ing him,strikes me as odd to say the least.

[safariguy5]

I'm not saying that I know whether or not there are third party jak. Although large games tend to favor third party, I think it is premature to think that there must be third party. And even if we DO have third party, it seems that some people are exceedingly paranoid that it HAS to be a cult. I've said before that I don't see how a cult would fit this theme, and I'm skeptical that humans would play a third party role. It's possible we have a few survivors or lyncher or something, but I see no reason to suspect cult or a large third party faction. Not even flavor can justify it at this point.

[aage]

I'm not saying that I know whether or not there are third party jak. Although large games tend to favor third party, I think it is premature to think that there must be third party. And even if we DO have third party, it seems that some people are exceedingly paranoid that it HAS to be a cult. I've said before that I don't see how a cult would fit this theme, and I'm skeptical that humans would play a third party role. It's possible we have a few survivors or lyncher or something, but I see no reason to suspect cult or a large third party faction. Not even flavor can justify it at this point.

Cult does in no way fit the theme. I do think however that we're looking at at least one survivor and potentially a serial killer.

[LSU Tiger Josh]

Sorry for inactivity the last couple of days. Dealing with a death in the family at the moment.

I still like my vote on Vodean since he is definitely not an angel. One other possibility is this setup "may" be similar to my old Civil War mafia setup where there are no "distinct" mafia/town sides, but rather 2 large but unknown to each other equal sides with the same type of roles with a random number of 3rd parties that can join a side or not.

[strike wolf]

Again no one's really died. I find it too early in the game to really have constructive discussion over what the set up may be. Just 50 theories with no real backing.

[jonty125]

Altering the game so a scum could get away with a fake claim would be bastard modding. Edoc is not a bastard mod.

+1

I have little idea how the setup is going to be, maybe: Angels - Town; Demons - Mafia; Human - Recruitable Town??

[Mr. Squirrel]

Hey guys. I'm really sorry, but I'm probably going to have to be replaced in this game. School and work and life is just too busy right now. On top of that, my internet will be cutting out at the end of the week.

[soundman]

Unofficial Vote Count

Vote Count

Jak - shaggy, pcm, cm5, vodean, Sam, greg
Vodean - lsu, Jak, ???
Greg - Saf, Fifth, jonty, sound, Vio, aage, jgordon, hensow
Hensow - Droz

Why aren't we pursuing Greg? We've got to be getting close to the deadline (Edocsil said 10 days from Sept. 30 + a small extension due to replacements) and I don't think we have time to continue throwing around theories on how the game has been set up. Let's finish what we started with Greg so we at least have something from this day. If we have time (and don't lynch Greg) then we can pursue another line.

[samgrossy]

While I can't agree totally with Sound's post, I do agree that we need to come to some sort of decision. But I think that we have reached a sort of consensus.

The interesting part is that this game is lynch by plurality not majority. Remember the push in D1 to make the vote count even so that there wouldn't be a lynch? So, right now Greg would be lynched regardless of the number of votes. At the very least there are 8 votes against greg which is close to a majority. It is also why I don't feel like I MUST change my vote from Jak to get a lynch.

We just have to be careful because scum could be lurking and at the last minute even up the vote count to prevent one of their own from getting lynched.

[safariguy5]

While I can't agree totally with Sound's post, I do agree that we need to come to some sort of decision. But I think that we have reached a sort of consensus.

The interesting part is that this game is lynch by plurality not majority. Remember the push in D1 to make the vote count even so that there wouldn't be a lynch? So, right now Greg would be lynched regardless of the number of votes. At the very least there are 8 votes against greg which is close to a majority. It is also why I don't feel like I MUST change my vote from Jak to get a lynch.

We just have to be careful because scum could be lurking and at the last minute even up the vote count to prevent one of their own from getting lynched.

True, but last minute vote manipulation would be putting a huge bullseye on themselves as well as basically confirming the guilt of the scumbuddy about to be lynched. High risk, pretty low reward strategy IMHO.

[Commander9]

I'm around midway through writing my post - but due to the fact that I have 2 tests today, 1 test + presentation + 12page homework tomorrow, I probably won't be post it until late Thursday/Friday.