[Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - N7 [6/16] World is Ending Tod

Postby thechuck51 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:12 pm

thechuck51 wrote:Great job by Rish and Ani for pulling it out when IB got nabbed.

When I unvoted late Day 3? to "save" betiko I was really hoping it was close enough to the deadline that he would still get lynched. I knew we would have to mass claim at some point and I didnt want to hurt my claim by not coming to his defense at all. I thought I was in good shape but not so much. Fortunately it made Betiko look scummy enough that he was an easy lynch later in the game.

I think the town was a little weak. I guess that when it was checked for balance they expected the gifts to be more powerful than they ended up being?

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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - N7 [6/16] World is Ending Tod

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:14 pm

anamainiacks wrote:
betiko wrote:A couple of things that completely turned the game on mafia side was the fact that you didn't receive my day 1 gift mob, I really would like to know what happened there; second thing is that mafia stole my gifts on night 2, and I would've received met's gift. How come it always looked like they had only 3 actions though??

I'm pretty puzzled about that too, actually. I remember we roleblocked MoB on Night 1, but we certainly didn't steal his gifts...

And it looked like we had 3 actions, because nobody would be alerted that they'd been copped by theChuck. Add in the fact that you were certain Chuck hadn't copped Mets and vice versa, and whala, makes it look like we alternated actions somewhere.


fastposted.

MoB Deadly wrote:Well yeah I was going to shoot you, until rishead said he got your present. I thought there was only one scum left so I was like I guess rishead just messed up and cleared ani as a townie making rishead scum.

Wow, so my frantic posting after dropping the hammer wasn't for nothing \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ But honestly, I really didn't know that unvoting after a hammer would be ignored! I really needed rishaed to confirm my 'townieness' after all :P


you played perfectly that day 6 man, well done! but rishaed clearing you really messed up my mind when I was sure you were the last remaining scum... either you were both scum or MOB was the remaining scum. It seemed more likely that mob would be the remaining scum as he denied receiving my gift+claimed being blocked... still want to hear from PCM about that!
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - N7 [6/16] World is Ending Tod

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:20 pm

thechuck51 wrote:Great job by Rish and Ani for pulling it out when Neb got nabbed.

When I unvoted late Day 3? to "save" betiko I was really hoping it was close enough to the deadline that he would still get lynched. I knew we would have to mass claim at some point and I didnt want to hurt my claim by not coming to his defense at all. I thought I was in good shape but not so much. Fortunately it made Betiko look scummy enough that he was an easy lynch later in the game.

I think the town was a little weak. I guess that when it was checked for balance they expected the gifts to be more powerful than they ended up being?



Yeah i think we were quite weak, but maybe also because we didn't use well the third parties... Gifting was really hard, you had to gift to someone not mafia AND not obvious enough so that mafia wouldn't steal from that person... I really got unlucky... first gift didn't reach, second and third to a person NKed, 4th blocked and 5th to a mafia, revealed once i was already hammered! :roll: + my attacks on mets and my defense on IB, I really lost all credibility on day 6...
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:20 pm

So what actually did happen on N4? Did I really save Gustaf?
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby pancakemix on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:29 pm

- I really thought this game was going to go to hell early on, with the mafia being pretty much 1 mislynch away from victory around Day 4and the game being pretty uneventful up to that point. But during the runoff, MoB really turned it on (his WC being at stake was probably a factor :p ) and brought life back into town. It’s not often you see such a trustworthy survivor. He’d be my personal choice for MVP, but that’s for you to decide, not me.

- Betiko really couldn’t catch a break here. It didn’t help that there were multiple players with “Gift Giver” as their role name, but by the time Mets was gone that could’ve been believed The whole stealing gifts thing shot him in the foot from the get-go. Night 1 his action got redirected by Jonty to IB. Nobody even remembered Jonty by the end of the game, and that screwed him over. Hammering away on Mets was what really did him in. It didn’t help that he went about it in such a vehement fashion for it to come off as scummy. The whole switching factions thing was just paranoid, but so was Gustaf’s assertion that he had disguised his alignment on investigation. The irony that he investigated the godfather at the end of it was too much for me.

- Part of why I thought this game would fail early on was the gift mechanic. I thought I had fleshed it out with enough gifting roles, but ultimately it did rely on Santa to really move, something I initially feared. Witt missed his N2 action, and that screwed things up with Rish consistently hitting correctly on the steals. I’m not blaming Witt; I’ve been busy like that myself. But once he got things rolling again, the gifts actually got exchanged and the mechanic saw its fruits.

- As a follow up to that, Christmas Magic never saw use, despite everyone’s paranoia that it had happened. There just weren’t enough gifts to go around for people to get to 4 gifts. I think Mets was the only one who tried (or so it seemed, I didn’t know for sure), and even he only got to 2. Despite my note that the 2-gift trade could only make basic actions no one seemed clear on that, which was probably ultimately my fault for not making that clear sooner.

Metsfanmax wrote:So what actually did happen on N4? Did I really save Gustaf?


You did.

As for the discussion Gustaf and betiko are having, please don't reignite any arguments. I realize that the nationality thing is just ribbing, but it can be hard to detect that over the internet. If you want my opinion, lemme put it this way: Is it betiko's fault for being scummy, or is it Gustaf's for not trusting his results? :-k
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby jonty125 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:36 pm

pancakemix wrote:Nobody even remembered Jonty by the end of the game


:cry: :cry: :cry:
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:42 pm

oh so witt did lie by telling he sent me a gift night 2... why the hell would he do that? That's another thing that made me look scummy...
and yeah, absolutely forgot about the redirecting thing... that did hurt a lot!
Yeah and rishaed really nailed all his steals + killing NOS was a hell of a bad news given the fact that he had 2 of my gifts.. I think this is probably the game where I took the most bad decisions!! :? but also luck was really not on our side...

PCM, calling someone swedish isn't an insult, but it's funny to see it's been taken as something negative.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby MoB Deadly on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:48 pm

pancakemix wrote:- I really thought this game was going to go to hell early on, with the mafia being pretty much 1 mislynch away from victory around Day 4and the game being pretty uneventful up to that point. But during the runoff, MoB really turned it on (his WC being at stake was probably a factor :p ) and brought life back into town. It’s not often you see such a trustworthy survivor. He’d be my personal choice for MVP, but that’s for you to decide, not me.


Haha, oh how the game would have been completely different had Betiko been lynched and I completed my win condition. That would have changed things pretty dramatically.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Jonty redirected Betiko N1, that was the cause. Damn haha, that was the missing puzzlepeice!
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:58 pm

MoB Deadly wrote:
pancakemix wrote:- I really thought this game was going to go to hell early on, with the mafia being pretty much 1 mislynch away from victory around Day 4and the game being pretty uneventful up to that point. But during the runoff, MoB really turned it on (his WC being at stake was probably a factor :p ) and brought life back into town. It’s not often you see such a trustworthy survivor. He’d be my personal choice for MVP, but that’s for you to decide, not me.


Haha, oh how the game would have been completely different had Betiko been lynched and I completed my win condition. That would have changed things pretty dramatically.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Jonty redirected Betiko N1, that was the cause. Damn haha, that was the missing puzzlepeice!


even with that piece missing, there was no way you would've believed me!!!
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - N7 [6/16] World is Ending Tod

Postby rishaed on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:35 pm

betiko wrote:haha, well done guys! yeah the whole rishaed/ani present seemed odd and I did mention by the end that there was a possibility of having 4 mafia... first time i have 4 mafia in the same game though!

so we were actually 9 town, 4 mafia and 3 third parties... that's hard!

my vote for MVP goes to ani! very well played man!

So quite funny, because basically rishaed DID make a slip on his first post about gift stealing. Mets put the attention on me and ani managed to deviate quite well the attention from rishaed...

And I was right, rishaed's claim about the lamb didn't fit with one scene.

Yeah, I must say that it was completely unintentional. The thing with MoB and gift stealing just fit too perfect when making my joke vote that it was something that slipped my mind. As for my fake claim, the little Drummer boy was just about the only Rankin/Bass i saw as a kid so I picked something to go along with my 1-shot bulletproof I got.
MoB if you would have vigged ani Mafia would have lost. I tied so much into confirming him, as well as the fake tracker result (I was actually going to get Mets lynched with it except for the fact that chuck posted way too quick before I could call him out on it.) Once you found he was just a goon, it would have been game over for me. (Lynch all Liars).
I was quite impressed with ani as well :). If anything the flags should have been going up when I wasn't on the IB lynch wagon (Ani needed town cred), and put Betiko at L-1, (hoping ani would hammer).
The other thing I was laughing about was the fact that you correctly pegged me and ani as scum over and over again but couldn't dig up a good enough case to convince everyone else about it.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - N7 [6/16] World is Ending Tod

Postby MoB Deadly on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:39 pm

rishaed wrote:The other thing I was laughing about was the fact that you correctly pegged me and ani as scum over and over again but couldn't dig up a good enough case to convince everyone else about it.


It kept always seeming we had bigger fish to fry and we kept putting you guys off till later
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby rishaed on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:42 pm

True that! Thats why it was so important for me to keep a low profile. Chuck probably should have claimed something other than a diviner, but that would have become extremely tricky.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:57 pm

rishaed wrote:True that! Thats why it was so important for me to keep a low profile. Chuck probably should have claimed something other than a diviner, but that would have become extremely tricky.



i personally think chuck played really well there. This whole wifom on me/mets... great play! And yeah, I picked you and ani as scum many times, but I've picked lots of people to be scum to be fair! :lol: You did fall quite well under my radar when you gave that good explanation about your gift trade and tracking. I got very suspicious about ani around day 3 but he managed to reduce pretty much the scum alert I don't even know how, because it was really suspicious with the visit/gift stealing on mob. But that was another trap from you guys anyway.

We didn't even know there was a gift stealing ability, and you brought it up, I thought it was pretty scummy but people thought it was scummy from me to think it was scummy... oh well lol.

But with 4 mafia, there was so many ways for you guys to back up each other's stories, while for town everything went the wrong way... I should've looked up better met's rolename, I started believing him way too late...
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby Iron Butterfly on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 pm

Ok. Here's my two cents. I have been dieing to write and post.

This was a fun game BUT one of the worst played games I have been in from both sides. To top it off it was extremely unbalanced in favor of mafia. By worse played I mean judgement and tactics. I am not being mean or rude just stating like it is.

First. This game should have been a walk over for mafia, more so then it already was. Mafia certainly gave Town several breaks wich made it closer then it should have.

Mafia was able to Vig with presents so we could have killed someone night two or three. Rishead had an inspiration and decided bullet proof armor would be better. :lol: An honest mistake but a big one early game that could have made a difference.

Second with one hour and forty five minutes left for Betiko to be lynched with a 5 to 2 vote and mafia cruising to a win, as we would have most likely had an easy night kill, Chuck unvotes AND asks someone else to unvote "in case town is making a mistake". I wanted to scream at the computer screen.

We had a sure lynch. This is why I went after the 3rd parties. We could not have 3rd parties who could and would most likely side with Town. As a Town it would be easy to justify.

Third...and this was almost the game killer for mafia. When Chuck claimed role cop he in effect cleared both Betiko and Met. If people believed he was telling the truth mafia would be screwed, as by this point of the game most people knew who was who and it would be a matter of time till it was figured out. I had no choice but to throw Chuck under the bus and hopefully make it seem like Betiko was mafia. I did this by not aknowlaging or defending Betiko. The only thing Mafia had to work with is the animosity between Met and Betiko.

When I got caught it was because we took a calculated risk that failed. I felt I did a good enough job of making Betiko appear scummy without doing so. the payoff was that he was lynched.

TOWN you made Mafias job easy...

first the cop coming out day one was huge and may have cost you the game. Second you guys pretty much telegraphed everything you were going to do. We did not have to guess...we knew who was who. It was easy pickings. We knew who witt gifted, we knew who mitt was, we knew who to block and we knew who to steal from.

Now...BETIKO...you made the difference in our win. Take this as constructive criticism. You need to tone it down. Your animosity between Met and yourself played right into our hands. All we had to do was sit back and let the sparks fly while town. destroyed itself. Having an opinion does not make you right, which is your downfall. You also seem to believe that WIFOM theories constitute good play. All it does is sow confusion and uncertainty.

Betiko you said something to me the other day, which I took as a compliment. You said, "I have never been able to get an accurate read on you in the games we play." I am paraphrasing. Ask yourself why.

Finally I felt the game was unbalanced in favor of mafia. We had 4, a gift stealer, blocker, Godfather and goon, plus we could use gifts. We could Vig if we so choose. The day I was lynched I had sent in two gifts to Vig Mets.

This is one of those games I would like to play over to see how it would play out if we did not have the Santa and cop revealed so early.

It was certainly a fun game to play.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby rishaed on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:53 pm

We should have RB"d mets and killed gustaf like me and An. were going for. . . Strangely enough we could have gotten betiko the next day.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby Nendreel on Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:04 pm

Hey all, sorry I had to bail on the game, but school was running me through the wringer for a few weeks and I just couldn't keep playing. Though I did read through the thread later to see how things turned out.
Good job mafia. I hadn't thought there would be 4 mafia, especially after all the TP in the game.

Iron Butterfly wrote:TOWN you made Mafias job easy...

first the cop coming out day one was huge and may have cost you the game. Second you guys pretty much telegraphed everything you were going to do. We did not have to guess...we knew who was who. It was easy pickings. We knew who witt gifted, we knew who mitt was, we knew who to block and we knew who to steal from.


It was D2 actually, and believe me, I agonized over revealing my role. The biggest problem was that nobody was reporting anything, so it was either up to me to provide direction or do nothing (which may have also cast doubt when I revealed my reports later).
It was a tough choice, and in this case I chose wrong. Sorry Gustaf.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby Iron Butterfly on Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:53 pm

The thing is no one but the cop at this point would have anything to report. The only true PRs were cop and doc for Town. By revealing a third party, which in actually revealed three only served to make our jobs easier on who to target.

While I understand why you did what you did it is better to wait and let things play out. Hind sight is 20'20 but by coming out of hiding for a third party you lost the chance to target scum.... :D till the end of course.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:21 pm

I kind of disagree here, although for the 2 things I will comment I agree that the arguments on both ends stand.

first, I think that chuck's plays weren't bad at all, it just didn't pay off for odd reasons. He took a massive brownie point gamble, so unlikely for a mafia to do that if it worked there would've been no way of suspecting him after me/mets would've been killed/lynched. You guys were 4 scums and after a massclaim his ability became useless, I think it was worth the shot. It didn't prevent you guys from winning...

second about nendreel. Day 2 was the only momentum where we could've only been a town cop given the gift thing. I agree that in any other given game it wouldn't ve been the best play, but you have to understand that from our point of view stolen gifts could be used by mafia...
The cop was therefore 99% a town telling the truth s there was almost no way a mafia could know about a third party.

But yes IB, the bad reads I have on you were meant to be a compliment! ;) (althoguh it's the first time you're mafia in one of our games, and other times when you were town I've seen you as a very plausible threat, I had to give you some slack for once and I guess you were well aware of it)

But yes, as the ones that have played me know, I tend to play "bad cop" as I get frustrated by too conservative plays. I tend to be provocative in mafia games to get something going on, otherwise I think things get a bit boring.. I know it's not the safest way to play and that it can bring lots of backfire, but that makes the game more interesting...
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby thechuck51 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:30 pm

I think valid arguments can be made for it being a good play or an awful one. Fortunately it worked out in the end.


Shameless plug:

Now that this game is over, if you guys are looking for some more mafia action check out http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=213&t=187216#p4089287
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:48 pm

thechuck51 wrote:I think valid arguments can be made for it being a good play or an awful one. Fortunately it worked out in the end.


Shameless plug:

Now that this game is over, if you guys are looking for some more mafia action check out http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=213&t=187216#p4089287


you're tempting me! :lol: this was my last mafia game on, I am a huge fan of the wire but I kind of wanted a little break from mafia games as I've always had one going on in the past 6 month or so...
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby Iron Butterfly on Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:05 pm

betiko wrote:I kind of disagree here, although for the 2 things I will comment I agree that the arguments on both ends stand.

first, I think that chuck's plays weren't bad at all, it just didn't pay off for odd reasons. He took a massive brownie point gamble, so unlikely for a mafia to do that if it worked there would've been no way of suspecting him after me/mets would've been killed/lynched. You guys were 4 scums and after a massclaim his ability became useless, I think it was worth the shot. It didn't prevent you guys from winning...

second about nendreel. Day 2 was the only momentum where we could've only been a town cop given the gift thing. I agree that in any other given game it wouldn't ve been the best play, but you have to understand that from our point of view stolen gifts could be used by mafia...
The cop was therefore 99% a town telling the truth s there was almost no way a mafia could know about a third party.

But yes IB, the bad reads I have on you were meant to be a compliment! ;) (althoguh it's the first time you're mafia in one of our games, and other times when you were town I've seen you as a very plausible threat, I had to give you some slack for once and I guess you were well aware of it)

But yes, as the ones that have played me know, I tend to play "bad cop" as I get frustrated by too conservative plays. I tend to be provocative in mafia games to get something going on, otherwise I think things get a bit boring.. I know it's not the safest way to play and that it can bring lots of backfire, but that makes the game more interesting...


I disagree. At the time you were about to be lynched we had 13 people. If we lynched you and got a night kill that would bring it down to 11, three of whom were survivors with a specific win condition and four mafia. We knew who was who. All we would need be to do is lynch a Town and game over.

The three remaining third parties would lose without one of them winning.

Sure we could play what if, and yes it worked out for us in the end, but in that particular point in time not lynching you was a mistake. We were able to salvage it because Witt saved you and flipped Mafia but to not lynch you was silly. Sure its my opinion and we still won....but I honestly believe this game was closer then it should have been,

Perhaps the most interesting thing was what PCM said to me in PM after I was dead. Town lost because they did a speed lynch on you Betiko. After that we needed a night kill and game over.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby betiko on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:48 pm

wasn't town that speed lynched me. was gustaf+third party+2 mafia.

I'd like to know all the gifting actions from witt and why he chose who. that role was key. On the town side we had witt and nos barely active, keener who was playing his first game... and me playing my first game vs mets and having a crap read on his gamestyle we just had no chance.

but yes, I think looking this way you are correct. you guys should ve lynched me that day. but hey, the game became more interesting because of that! ;)
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby pancakemix on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:11 am

@IB: Imbalance toward mafia was something I feared as well, and I hoped the gift mechanic would give town some extra juice, because it existed in lieu of actual power roles. The mafia was clearly convincing enough to draw more gifts than I had anticipated, and with NoS, the second most powerful gifter, being inactive. Ultimately it came down to what I wanted flavorwise and what I wanted mechanically. Mechanically, I could cross my fingers but I was locked in on flavor. Slightly larger would have been good, I think. Even just 18 vs. 16.

Also, I LOVED what happened with that runoff. It brought the game to life. Absolutely one of my favorite modding moments was watching that play out.

I'm taking another hiatus from modding, I think. I felt rushed into this one, got burned by my co-mod (again), and have too much to deal with in RL this semester to mod Mafia games. A nice six weeks away will do me some good, and I'm not going away. I'll be about in Forum Games mostly, I think, but a new game, player or mod, isn't in the cards atm (sorry chuck :P )
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby Iron Butterfly on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:08 am

LOL I guess I am biased. I hate losing, so when that runoff happened I was gritting my teeth. I couldn't believe people wanted to no lynch again. Knocking out two potential Town votes helped though at a point I really though folks were going to buy MoBs case on me...Har he was pretty spot on even though he was WIFOM arguing.

I really thought i had overplayed my hand when Mob was arguing with me... :D I guess I had more Town cred.

But yes from an observers point of view I'm sure it was exciting.
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Re: [Official] Holiday Mafia - Game Over!

Postby betiko on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:54 am

sorry but what do you mean by runoff? I don't understand what it refers to!

so pcm, what was NOS's role? what was a toymaker?
But yeah one thing that changed the deal is that out of so little amount of town players we had so many inactive/barely actives. It was really hard to influence town to go one way or another. I think you should've made it at least an 19 player game, 12 town vs 4 mafia ratio seems like a minimum to me even if I have no idea of modding.
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