WWII Africa

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WWII Africa

Postby Unit_2 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:00 pm

Back in November I started to think of a new map Idea, an Colonial Africa map. After finding someone to help with the graphical work we changed it to a WWII era map.

There is some mixed up game-play here so bare with me. The basic idea is that you start with one territory which is your home territory. Two-Eight players start as one(1) Homeland, if less than Eight players are in play, the others become neutral. These territories are: Britain, Vichy France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany. The Free French and Exiled Belgium are inside Britain which is where they were when Germany started to expand and start the war. No European territory may attack another, only the ports set up in Africa maybe attacked by their homeland.

For each round you have more than 1 army(s) in a Sahara Desert territory you lose 1 army, no river may be crossed but where bridges are located.

Territories count.

Allies:
24 British
7 Free French
6 Exiled Belgian
37 ALLIES

Axis:
8 German and Italian
16 Vichy France
24 AXIS

Neutral:
8 Portugal
5 Spain
13 NEUTRAL

All territory names are meant to reflect the territory they're in at this time period. If you feel we named it incorrect, please provide the name and the source you got it from.

Besides this, there is a total territory count of seventy-three(73).

The current map is posted below.
Last edited by Unit_2 on Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:00 pm

And I would be the Graphics guy...

I'll be maintaining the second post so as to ensure that each graphical update is updated on the first page as well.

So yeah, first off, let me apologize for the graphics. They're not exactly awesome at the moment but I just got to the point where I thought overdoing the graphics before solidifying the gameplay was a bad idea.

This is kind of a complex map, I think. As it stands now, a player won't be able to eliminate a player. The only victory is controlling the continent as a player winning in Africa and then winning in Europe during WWII was and is ridiculous. So with this kind of settings, its going to be difficult to ensure a fair gameplay and I'd rather get the gameplay fair before working hard on the graphics.

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Last edited by Industrial Helix on Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby fumandomuerte on Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:30 pm

This could be added to Qwerty's WW series.
Good luck guys ;)
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Orange-Idaho-Dog on Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:52 pm

The only solution I can think of at the moment would be if the ports were a 2 way attack border. Although I've already brought it up to Unit and he says that in the time line the map is based on that wouldn't be realistic.

Although I guess you could make some sort of strategic Objective to hold?
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:28 am

It's possible... there's 74 African territories there, perhaps the objective could be to hold 2/3 the continent, so like 49 territories.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby captainwalrus on Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:53 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:It's possible... there's 74 African territories there, perhaps the objective could be to hold 2/3 the continent, so like 49 territories.

AS of now, you would need to specify which 49 territories. There is nothing in the xml that allows you to make the objective to hold just a number of territories.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby natty dread on Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:36 pm

captainwalrus wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:It's possible... there's 74 African territories there, perhaps the objective could be to hold 2/3 the continent, so like 49 territories.

AS of now, you would need to specify which 49 territories. There is nothing in the xml that allows you to make the objective to hold just a number of territories.


Are you sure? It should be possible... In third crusade there was an objective to hold "vatican or granada"... so if that is possible then it should be possible to make an objective to hold "x number of territories out of y".
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby cubfanpgh on Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:15 pm

natty_dread wrote:
captainwalrus wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:It's possible... there's 74 African territories there, perhaps the objective could be to hold 2/3 the continent, so like 49 territories.

AS of now, you would need to specify which 49 territories. There is nothing in the xml that allows you to make the objective to hold just a number of territories.


Are you sure? It should be possible... In third crusade there was an objective to hold "vatican or granada"... so if that is possible then it should be possible to make an objective to hold "x number of territories out of y".


I think it would be possible to code "hold any 49 territories". However, unless I'm mistaken, you would have to put each possible combination into the XML. That would be, unless my math is rusty, C(74,49) = 3.50590314 × 10^19 combinations.

So not really.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby natty dread on Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:28 pm

Yeah I figured that out in another thread...
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:33 pm

No, its possible. I think you just run it under something similar to a superbonus. It would look something like a list of all the territories and then say, hold 49 for victory.

Another possibility that I am entertaining is a specific objective for each country. As the gameplay is now, the initial country you start with is the country you're stuck with the rest of the game. So country based objectives would be something like:

Britain: Occupy all Axis territories and two thirds British territories to win.
Free French: Occupy all Free French and Vichy French territories to win.
Exiled Belgium: Hold Belgian Congo and all Axis countries to win.

Germany: Hold all Axis territories and 2/3 British to win.
Italy: Hold all Axis territories and 1/3 British Territories, 1/3 French Territories to win
Vichy France: Hold All Free French and 2/3 Vichy French Territories to win.

Spain: Hold all Spanish territories, 1/3 French Territories and 1/3 British Territories
Portugal: Hold All Portuguese territories plus 1/3 French or 1/3 British Territories


I think this way, with each country having its own objective, a really unique game might come out of it and I don't think that it would be impossible to code either.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby cubfanpgh on Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:52 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:No, its possible. I think you just run it under something similar to a superbonus. It would look something like a list of all the territories and then say, hold 49 for victory.


That's quite possibly true. I'll be the first to say that I'm no XML expert. I hope everything works out!
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Unit_2 on Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:41 pm

I like that idea Industrial Helix. It would make it a very unique map to play, but the only question I have; is there enough room on the map to place all the objectives? Remember, the map has to fit within the CC small size.


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Re: WWII Africa

Postby natty dread on Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:47 am

No, its possible. I think you just run it under something similar to a superbonus. It would look something like a list of all the territories and then say, hold 49 for victory.


No, you can't use continents or "Required" tags to define objectives.

You can define several objectives, but they must be lists of territories only.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:10 pm

Unit_2 wrote:I like that idea Industrial Helix. It would make it a very unique map to play, but the only question I have; is there enough room on the map to place all the objectives? Remember, the map has to fit within the CC small size.


Unit_2.


Yeah, I'm brainstorming on that. I think there might be a way if we modify the lower left key.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:24 pm

Doesn't this give a huge advantage to players with larger sphere of influence -- most egregiously Britain -- and huge disadvantage to less prolific countries like Spain and Belgium?
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:20 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Doesn't this give a huge advantage to players with larger sphere of influence -- most egregiously Britain -- and huge disadvantage to less prolific countries like Spain and Belgium?


At this point it definitely does. I dunno, I'm trying to figure out an idea as to balance things out.

One possibility is to group the Axis and Neutral into a single sphere of influence, thus rendering +2 per any Axis or Neutral territory for Spain, Portugal, Vichy France, Italy and Germany.

And perhaps doing the same for the Belgium and Free France on Britain, but not Britain on Belgium or Free France.

----

Another possibility would be to have player specific bonuses, like the victory conditions (if XML allows it). For example, Spain wanted French and British Colonies to join the war for the Axis. The Bonus could be +2 for any Spanish, British or Vichy French Colonies. Thus giving Spain the option of 45/74 +2 territories. Portugal could be the same, with an option of 48 +2 Territories.

----

I dunno. I guess the biggest problem with all these player specifics is fitting it all in :?

But i'm definitely open to all suggestions regarding this map. While we didn't have the gameplay well figured out just yet, we wanted to post it to try and see if anyone could suggest anything solid.

For quick hand reference here's the break down of territories (unit 2, you might want to post this in the 1st post):

24 British
7 Free French
6 Exiled Belgian
37 ALLIES

8 German and Italian
16 Vichy France
24 AXIS

8 Portugal
5 Spain
13 NEUTRAL
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:30 pm

Ok, here is the small version of the large map.

I'm looking for opinions on whether or not the text is legible at that size, or whether or not it can go smaller.

I also want opinions on the text/grain/glow relationship of the sahara territories. (Does a glow help? Should the grain disappear in favor of some other graphical designation?)

Also, are there any graphical suggestions for insertion points? The current arrows are too bulky in my opinion.

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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:52 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Another possibility would be to have player specific bonuses, like the victory conditions (if XML allows it). For example, Spain wanted French and British Colonies to join the war for the Axis. The Bonus could be +2 for any Spanish, British or Vichy French Colonies. Thus giving Spain the option of 45/74 +2 territories. Portugal could be the same, with an option of 48 +2 Territories.

I like that idea, if you can balance the numbers.

As far as more graphical space:
- The "Attack at these points" display could be made smaller.
- Can you reduce the map itself to about 90% size? Just that much would go a long way.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Unit_2 on Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:45 am

Industrial Helix wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:Doesn't this give a huge advantage to players with larger sphere of influence -- most egregiously Britain -- and huge disadvantage to less prolific countries like Spain and Belgium?


At this point it definitely does. I dunno, I'm trying to figure out an idea as to balance things out.

One possibility is to group the Axis and Neutral into a single sphere of influence, thus rendering +2 per any Axis or Neutral territory for Spain, Portugal, Vichy France, Italy and Germany.

And perhaps doing the same for the Belgium and Free France on Britain, but not Britain on Belgium or Free France.

----

Another possibility would be to have player specific bonuses, like the victory conditions (if XML allows it). For example, Spain wanted French and British Colonies to join the war for the Axis. The Bonus could be +2 for any Spanish, British or Vichy French Colonies. Thus giving Spain the option of 45/74 +2 territories. Portugal could be the same, with an option of 48 +2 Territories.

----

I dunno. I guess the biggest problem with all these player specifics is fitting it all in :?

But i'm definitely open to all suggestions regarding this map. While we didn't have the gameplay well figured out just yet, we wanted to post it to try and see if anyone could suggest anything solid.

For quick hand reference here's the break down of territories (unit 2, you might want to post this in the 1st post):

24 British
7 Free French
6 Exiled Belgian
37 ALLIES

8 German and Italian
16 Vichy France
24 AXIS

8 Portugal
5 Spain
13 NEUTRAL


Got it ;)

What about having the name 'Sahara Desert' more faded into the background so it doesn't look so out in the open?
You could also take the grain you added over the territories in the region and darken it up, or you could take the background and lighten it to make the grain for the Sahara stick out more.


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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:10 pm

Alright, I've got another version working in some of the ideas previously mentioned.

Click image to enlarge.
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Here's how the numbers break down:

Every player has 3 players trying to secure its home territory, so that is nice and even.

The bonuses break down like such:

Number of territories that yield +2 per territory:
Britain 22
Free France 23
Belgium 26
Italy 30
Germany 30
Vichy France 23
Spain 27
Portugal 26

Number of territories needed for victory condition:

Britain 30
Free France 31
Belgium 26
Italy 30
Germany 30
Vichy France 34
Spain 34
Portugal 34

As you can see there is some imbalance. For the bonuses, I'm thinking maybe there could be territories marked as having cities which auto deploy or increase the bonus. Britain, Free France and Vichy France could benefit from this and this would balance things out a little better for them.

As for the victory conditions... well I'm lost on that. They're pretty close as it is, Belgium being the major easy victory... but the territories it needs to hold are way the hell out there, so the added difficulty of gaining those territories might justify the low count.

Then there's the option of just dropping the objectives and just making it something like control 2/3 territories to win.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby captainwalrus on Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:15 pm

Why are the army circle things so long? Why are they not just circles?
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby jefjef on Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:22 pm

Interesting concept.

The most important invasion has been excluded though. USA. Spose your substituting that with the Free French?
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:30 pm

jefjef wrote:Interesting concept.

The most important invasion has been excluded though. USA. Spose your substituting that with the Free French?


Well the idea was that it started in 1940, Operation torch wasn't until late 1942... but it might be an idea to help balance things out...

@ the cap'n - They're just place holders at the moment. Since this is the large image I needed something that was going to reflect the size of the numbers on the small map so I wouldn't go on putting words or lines over where the numbers would have to go.
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:39 pm

I can see a problem with these latest objectives, where you have states like Germany and Italy sharing invasion points but competing over the same territory sets. The same is true to a lesser extent for Belgium and Free France. It would be nice if each faction's victory conditions were mutually exclusive.

Also, interesting to see Liberia as unplayable....
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II#Liberia:
Wiki wrote:Liberia granted Allied forces access to its territory early in the war. It was used as a transit point for troops and resources bound for North Africa, particularly war supplies flown from Parnamirim (near Natal) in Brazil. Perhaps more importantly, it served as one of the Allies' only sources of rubber during the war; the plantations of Southeast Asia had been taken over by the Japanese. The importance of this resource led to significant improvement of Liberia's transport infrastructure and a modernisation of its economy. Liberia's strategic significance was emphasised when Franklin Roosevelt, after attending the Casablanca Conference, visited Liberia and met President Edwin Barclay.

Despite its assistance to the Allies, however, Liberia was reluctant to end its official neutrality and declare war on Germany. This did not occur until January 27, 1944.


I think Liberia is a good candidate for a special territory, maybe granting +3 to anyone who holds it regardless of faction (or maybe just +3 for the Allies, they start so far away from it)
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Re: WWII Africa

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:46 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:I can see a problem with these latest objectives, where you have states like Germany and Italy sharing invasion points but competing over the same territory sets. The same is true to a lesser extent for Belgium and Free France. It would be nice if each faction's victory conditions were mutually exclusive.

Also, interesting to see Liberia as unplayable....
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II#Liberia:
Wiki wrote:Liberia granted Allied forces access to its territory early in the war. It was used as a transit point for troops and resources bound for North Africa, particularly war supplies flown from Parnamirim (near Natal) in Brazil. Perhaps more importantly, it served as one of the Allies' only sources of rubber during the war; the plantations of Southeast Asia had been taken over by the Japanese. The importance of this resource led to significant improvement of Liberia's transport infrastructure and a modernisation of its economy. Liberia's strategic significance was emphasised when Franklin Roosevelt, after attending the Casablanca Conference, visited Liberia and met President Edwin Barclay.

Despite its assistance to the Allies, however, Liberia was reluctant to end its official neutrality and declare war on Germany. This did not occur until January 27, 1944.


I think Liberia is a good candidate for a special territory, maybe granting +3 to anyone who holds it regardless of faction (or maybe just +3 for the Allies, they start so far away from it)


I like that idea for Liberia! Sounds like it might be fun.

As for the victory conditions, this just came to me, what if we put battlesites on the map, signifying the key strategic points and battles of the war. Victory will be to hold a certain amount of these, perhaps varying between the allies and axis.
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