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Baltic States - Bonus discussion.

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Baltic States - Bonus discussion.

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:07 pm

Please comment on the bonus structure!!

Any suggestions are welcome.
I am thinking of changing it to:

Lithuania (10 territories 5 borders
+4 for 7
+ 6 for all

Latvia (15 territories 10 borders)
+5 for 7
+10 for all

Estonia (12 territories 4 borders)
+3 for 6
+6 for all

Name: Baltic States

Size: Large - 709px × 772px, Small - ???px x ???px

Territories: 37

Continents: 3

Unique features: Build your own bonuses, territories part of multiple bonuses, no impassibles (subject to change)

Starting neutrals: Riga, Tallinn, Vilinius.

Click image to enlarge.
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Last edited by captainwalrus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:41 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:26 pm

I like it better than Scania's version.

Is that railroad a real existing railroad or...

What's with the love for grain on the maps as of late? I'd prefer it without or lightened up some.

The pic int he lower right seems pointless.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:33 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I like it better than Scania's version.

Is that railroad a real existing railroad or...
I think. I noticed a lot of maps I was looking at had the rail line in there, so I decided that it must be important, so I thought I would put it in.

What's with the love for grain on the maps as of late? I'd prefer it without or lightened up some.
I will possibly lighten it up, but without it it is a little dull.
The pic int he lower right seems pointless.
I wanted to fill the space, but I just put that one there to see how it looks. Eventually there will be a more relevant picture of something of greater importance.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:38 pm

How about some flags for the lower right?

As for the rail... there is this: http://reference.findtarget.com/search/Rail%20Baltica/

One of the things I've done with my maps is put a large image of a piece of worn paper underneath the colors, then with the colors decreased in opacity. It's an idea if you want to toy with.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:43 pm

Nice. ;)
Graphics are clearly better than in the old version.
But i think that there's the same weak point : Latvia is a no man's land due it's central position, i think it forces players to rush to the two edges of the map and stack troops. Your bonus system helps a bit but it isn't enough imo.
Rail bonus and capital are the same bonus?....and....12 troops for 3 regions? :-s
Maybe you could give +1 for each station and leave the +3 bonus for all capitals....anyway a double bonus sounds strange to me.

On the whole a good start :)
Looking forward your next update

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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:55 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Nice. ;)
Graphics are clearly better than in the old version.
But i think that there's the same weak point : Latvia is a no man's land due it's central position, i think it forces players to rush to the two edges of the map and stack troops. Your bonus system helps a bit but it isn't enough imo.
Maybe +1 for every 3 in Latvia would make more sense?
Rail bonus and capital are the same bonus?....and....12 troops for 3 regions? :-s
I guess I need to make that clearer, the 12 is for holding the whole rail line, meaning all the territories the tracks go through on the map. It might still be high, but it is 12 troops for 12 regions
Maybe you could give +1 for each station and leave the +3 bonus for all capitals....anyway a double bonus sounds strange to me.

On the whole a good start :)
Looking forward your next update

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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:02 pm

What about impassibles? There are not many normal impassibles in the Baltic states, so last time I used trees, but I don't think they will fit in well with this graphics style. Anyone have any suggestion?
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Re: Baltic States V1

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:20 pm

It seems there's some lakes to the east, albeit small. More trees in the north as well.

There's the Daugava River in Latvia.

There seems to be a river between those giant lakes in Estonia as well and a tiny river that shoots off the smaller of the two.

There's also the Neiman River in Lithuania... famous as Napoleon's crossing of it initiated conflict with Russia in 1812.
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Re: Baltic States V1

Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:19 pm

I like the unique bonus system.

For Latvia, I think currently while being in the middle is tough, +3 for 3 seems a bit high. That's where everyone is going to focus. Get a nice drop there and you're in control.

I might drop Estonia to +2 for every 4, Latvia to +2 for every 3, and Lithuania as +1 for every 3. Problem with dropping them down in territory needs is people get bonuses more often on the drop. Definitely +3 for 3 seems way too high. Maybe +3 for 4? Seems like too many territories to be effective.

Actually, here's what I'd do. I recommend taking the idea a bit further. Do something like this for all the countries. +3 for 4. +5 for 7. etc. you can control the bonuses a bit more effectively. balancing the gameplay.


More importantly. Yes. I believe this is more important than the gameplay right now. 840x800 is the MAXIMUM. sorry to shout but you certainly don't need the max here. Some maps need that (Supermax, WWII Europe). Your map could probably be 700x675 or so. (700x666.66 is what it actually comes to but I'm making the number a bit nicer)

I'm not sure you need something in that corner. definitely what you have now isn't very good. flags would be quite small to have each. rail is a gameplay gimmick not a focus of the map so it doesn't fit quite well. It's a possible spot for the title. The title? Yes. look at the comments that follow

The Bonues (oops!!) are not quite readable at this point. Grey on blue. Very similar. mmmm. Anyway, I'd increase the size a bit. Make the text black. You could move it up to the top left corner and move the title to the bottom right corner. The bottom right corner? but there's something there already! see the comments above (but don't get caught in a loop).
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Re: Baltic States V1

Postby DubWarrior on Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:44 am

Hi,

well I'm not a master in bonuses but it's true you need something in the middle like an impassible...On the other hand, I realy like the way of collecting bonus, very original. I checked the map of Latvia, I noticed a major forest starting at Riga and continuing towards the south-east. And the top in the left of Latvia, can you make it a bit more narrow, so its more like a some sort of peninsula, you could do a bottleneck there?

But about the graphics:
-it looks a bit dusty, so drop the grain...maybe look for some additional distinctive color. (for example a title and the color of the regions?)
- I like the 'comic' style of the font but do you need that heavy black stroke bordering with the sea?
-is it already the right scale? I would cut off some pixles in the left and right, their is a bit too much dead space...and it will make your map more elegant.
- yes, the picture is pointless...but what I graphicaly like about the baltics is their flags. Maybe you can add the flags in or next their countries? maybe a bit hard, because they all have some heavy colors... just a thought
-make the x-borders kaloeda liepaja telsiai turkunst /and/ jelgave siautiai telsiai turkunst ab it more clear, i think it will be hard to see what country you can attack on a small size map.

cheers!
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Re: Baltic States V1

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:59 am

edbeard wrote:I like the unique bonus system.

For Latvia, I think currently while being in the middle is tough, +3 for 3 seems a bit high. That's where everyone is going to focus. Get a nice drop there and you're in control.

I might drop Estonia to +2 for every 4, Latvia to +2 for every 3, and Lithuania as +1 for every 3. Problem with dropping them down in territory needs is people get bonuses more often on the drop. Definitely +3 for 3 seems way too high. Maybe +3 for 4? Seems like too many territories to be effective.
It is actually +3 for 8, just a bad font. I think that might be to hard to hold though.
Actually, here's what I'd do. I recommend taking the idea a bit further. Do something like this for all the countries. +3 for 4. +5 for 7. etc. you can control the bonuses a bit more effectively. balancing the gameplay.


More importantly. Yes. I believe this is more important than the gameplay right now. 840x800 is the MAXIMUM. sorry to shout but you certainly don't need the max here. Some maps need that (Supermax, WWII Europe). Your map could probably be 700x675 or so. (700x666.66 is what it actually comes to but I'm making the number a bit nicer)
Yeah, I will probably make it smaller soon. Either I will cut bits and pieces off or I will just shrink it down.
I'm not sure you need something in that corner. definitely what you have now isn't very good. flags would be quite small to have each. rail is a gameplay gimmick not a focus of the map so it doesn't fit quite well. It's a possible spot for the title. The title? Yes. look at the comments that follow

The Bonues (oops!!) are not quite readable at this point. Grey on blue. Very similar. mmmm. Anyway, I'd increase the size a bit. Make the text black. You could move it up to the top left corner and move the title to the bottom right corner. The bottom right corner? but there's something there already! see the comments above (but don't get caught in a loop).
Yeah, so far I hadn't put much thought into where everything is. I might move the bonuses to the corner where the picture is now, but keep the title where it is. The bonuses do need to be made clearer, so I will make them darker and maybe a less bold font, that much make it hard to read with the current size.

Thanks for the comments
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Re: Baltic States V1

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:18 pm

DubWarrior wrote:Hi,

well I'm not a master in bonuses but it's true you need something in the middle like an impassible...On the other hand, I realy like the way of collecting bonus, very original. I checked the map of Latvia, I noticed a major forest starting at Riga and continuing towards the south-east. And the top in the left of Latvia, can you make it a bit more narrow, so its more like a some sort of peninsula, you could do a bottleneck there?

But about the graphics:
-it looks a bit dusty, so drop the grain...maybe look for some additional distinctive color. (for example a title and the color of the regions?)
I got rid of the noise, added a texture below. Is it any better?
- I like the 'comic' style of the font but do you need that heavy black stroke bordering with the sea?
I will change that, it probably isn't necessary.
-is it already the right scale? I would cut off some pixles in the left and right, their is a bit too much dead space...and it will make your map more elegant.
I changed the size, it is now 709x777, I think.
- yes, the picture is pointless...but what I graphicaly like about the baltics is their flags. Maybe you can add the flags in or next their countries? maybe a bit hard, because they all have some heavy colors... just a thought
Now there is nothing, does it look like it needs something?
-make the x-borders kaloeda liepaja telsiai turkunst /and/ jelgave siautiai telsiai turkunst ab it more clear, i think it will be hard to see what country you can attack on a small size map.
I will. There were even worse before, I think in real life they actually are just X borders, I moved them a bit already.
cheers!
Dub
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Re: Baltic States

Postby DubWarrior on Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:40 am

Some nice improvements, It's true I don't think you need a photo of something just to fill the dead space.
I like the new size too.
small thing i noticed; there is ' bonues' in the top, shouldn't that be 'bonus' of 'bonuses'?
You also realy need to replace those borders a bit more, on a small size they will look like an X-border?
What about the peninsula idea?

cheers!
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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:49 pm

DubWarrior wrote:Some nice improvements, It's true I don't think you need a photo of something just to fill the dead space.
I like the new size too.
small thing i noticed; there is ' bonues' in the top, shouldn't that be 'bonus' of 'bonuses'?
Yes, spelling is not my forte (at first I misspelled Baltic)
You also realy need to replace those borders a bit more, on a small size they will look like an X-border?
Yes, I must change that still.
What about the peninsula idea?
Can you clarify it more, I am not quite sure what you mean?
cheers!
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Re: Baltic States

Postby JoshyBoy on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:11 am

It's looking good keep working on it buddy don't give up!
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Re: Baltic States

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:55 am

The Lithuania bonus seems a bit small compared to the others. It has 6 borders to defend yet you only get a +2 for holding the whole country.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby DubWarrior on Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:52 am

Well, it might look like a great idea, it's just a thought...I did a little sketch.

Image

in the left, I made that point a bit more narrow and deeper. Like it is now, you have an easy spot in Latvia to defend.
you just need to make sure it works with the bonus...and those are great :D

concerning your titles, try CAPS for the titles of the 'bonuses' and the county-names.
Concerning Lithuania, it's a bit the same problem, your regions are all bordering with eachother, their are no real bottlenecks, it's all very plain and hard to defend...you need some variation in the way your regions are bordering with eachother.

well, this is the melting pot, so I hope to see this map soon in the main foundry!
GL!
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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:32 am

He is what i have been thinking when making the bonus structure:
Often times maps with a mix of easy to hold and hard to hold bonuses are not balanced too well, as one or two people often end up with nothing to go with but some people have half of a bonus region already. In large maps it works out okay because there is enough for everyone, but in smaller maps it does not work. IN order to prevent uneven drops, I decided to make all the bonuses small but hard to defend. If I make it so that holding the peninsula would be easy and give a bonus, whoever states near it would have an advantage, even if they don't have all of it. I have however realized that the current bonuses do not work well either. I have reconsidered and here is what I have come up with.

Estonia - +3 for 5
Latvia - + 3 for 4
Lithuania - +3 for 5

This is more balanced than what I have now, and had fairer drops than if I had easier bonuses. Also, this way in fog games, you see just player x received 3 troops for holding ???, you don't know what he has.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby Blitzaholic on Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:01 am

graphics look nice
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Re: Baltic States

Postby amazzony on Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:34 pm

I'm clearly really interested in this map because I'm from Estonia so first of all wanted to say "YAAAAY!" and wish you good luck with it! =D> I'll surely comment more tomorrow and give you some correct names (especially about Estonia) because I know that our county/city names can be pain the butt :lol:
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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:16 pm

amazzony wrote:I'm clearly really interested in this map because I'm from Estonia so first of all wanted to say "YAAAAY!" and wish you good luck with it! =D> I'll surely comment more tomorrow and give you some correct names (especially about Estonia) because I know that our county/city names can be pain the butt :lol:

Yes, I am sorry if I misspelled everything.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:44 am

I'm not Estonian, but: Parnu --> Pärnu.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby amazzony on Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:16 pm

captainwalrus wrote:
amazzony wrote:I'm clearly really interested in this map because I'm from Estonia so first of all wanted to say "YAAAAY!" and wish you good luck with it! =D> I'll surely comment more tomorrow and give you some correct names (especially about Estonia) because I know that our county/city names can be pain the butt :lol:

Yes, I am sorry if I misspelled everything.


Don't be sorry, no need :)

I'll give you correct city names if you are interested (first about Estonia, I'll get back to you later on Latvia and Lithuania because I need to check some of them). In some cases you haven't used cities but counties instead so I'll change them to cities if it is alright:

Daane-Vim -> Rakvere
Ida-viru -> Narva
Rapta -> Rapla
Parnu -> Pärnu
Järva -> Paide
Jorgeva -> Jõgeva
Vilijand -> Viljandi
Valga -> Tartu (I would change Valga to Tartu because Tartu is second biggest and 2nd most important city in Estonia so it would be only fair and correct).
Voru -> Võru

About Islands (Hulu-Saare). They are actually 2 different counties but if you are not taking that angle then I'd use "Kuressaare" for that territory because it's the biggest city in those 2 counties.

I also don't know how accurate you want the map to be but you should maybe think about dividing Estonia into 15 parts because we have 15 counties. There's more information about them in here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Estonia

Once again, great project and good luck with it!
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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:03 pm

At first all the countries had accurate divisions, but it made the map crowded and it made it so Lithuania had many fewer territories and therefore much larger territories. I combined some territories in order to make it look nicer and be better balanced.
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Re: Baltic States

Postby captainwalrus on Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:27 pm

Thanks for the names. I fixed the ones you told me (now I just need a helpful latvian and lithuanian), is it better? For the two islands, which one should the name be over?

Other things: The line between the land and sea is lighter, is it good?
There is a new texture used behind it. It is back to being a bit heavy again, but I can fix that.
The bonuses have been changed. Once we get this thing in to the gameplay section we an hammer those out.

I don't like how the country borders look next to the territory borders. It just looks off. I will have to play around with that.

Click image to enlarge.
image
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