Siege II -new map-

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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby grifftron on Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:41 pm

natty_dread wrote:All I can say, is that this is looking good. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.

what what what? natty with nothing to say but looking good? must be on the right track...

I like the map too, siege has always been a fun map to play, can you do something different with the tunnel tho? maybe have it connect to somewhere else on the other side of the board, or the cannons up in the top left?

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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:20 am

Now then, now then.

Amazing draft as commented above. =D>

The map's graphical quality will be an appeal for players, so I'm glad you've opened up the gameplay discussion so much - let's hope we can make gameplay to match the graphics and make a hit map.

Here's my idea:

Starting Position Gameplay
A popular format, here's how I see it could be applied to this map (maybe a few amendments might be needed though):

The Starts
8 starts on the bottom of the map - some, or all, from boats.

The starts are invading hoards, with auto-deploys. As they would be relatively close together, they would not be able to attack each other (to prevent kills too early in the game).

So, how would the starting hoards be killed? From the canons in the top tower. As getting to the canons would be a long journey through neutrals this would be something late in the game (see below).

Beaches / Battleground
Looking at the layout currently, these start positions would lead to a battleground in front of the castle. To eliminate potential advantages for different start positions due to proximity to the bridge etc, all 8 starts could be boats which can land at any of 8 landing points. In fact, each landing point could be killer-neutral quicksand.

Within the battleground there could be small bonuses available (maybe like the camps in Siege 1).

Accessing the Castle
From the battleground, players would be vying to gain access to the castle at two points (drawbridge and tunnel).

This would require some changes. If we stuck at the two access points we would have a situation similar to the Danelaw map idea (now in the recycling bin) - the thinking there was that foolish players would go first and then get attacked by everyone else before they could progress far. On this map, this could create an early-game boring semi-stalemate waiting game when relatively intelligent players are playing. Therefore it is maybe worth considering additional access routes (maybe through the moat (which would have decay) or by amending the layout to have hills to the side, or a completely encircling moat with more drawbridges, maybe more, shorter tunnels etc.).

Inside The Castle
Once inside the castle, players could battle over various small zonal bonuses, including significant auto-deploy bonuses for King & Queen.

The King & Queen could start with significant neutrals and be part of an objective? Maybe a third significant region could be part of an objective (great hall for example)?

For extra interest, the castle walls could bombard the battleground and landing points and maybe even within the castle (archers bombarding regions close to them, bombarding like the 'range' horses in Waterloo).

The Canon Tower
Then the upper tower - could either be accessed via stairs from the wall (as shown in version 2) or by going up a steep hill / accross a swamp / more quicksand (some kind of decay / killer neutral). The upper tower canons could then bombard starting boats and maybe the battleground and maybe parts of the castle (but not the objective regions as this could create stalemate).

I think that's my idea - hope it makes sense.

I'd be happy to make some sort of diagram - stick a layer on top of the current image(s) to explain.

:D
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:19 pm

Yes, I like the sound of that, DJ.

If you could scribble something out for me, I will render it up.
I was thinking that maybe a catapult down on the beach could make for that extra castle entry.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:02 pm

I like the catapult idea - I'll get a diagram sorted over the next couple of days :D
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby mibi on Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:12 pm

you can take mine and colemans name off this map. we don't have time to participate in its creation and its not a revamp, its a new map.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:07 pm

mibi wrote:you can take mine and colemans name off this map. we don't have time to participate in its creation and its not a revamp, its a new map.
Will do.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby army of nobunaga on Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:18 pm

dj kinda stole my thunder. This is a beautiful start and even though I suck at siege, its a great map.

But this one could go in a lot of different directions, like siege engines. A dam that controls the moat. Catapult areas. How about even making the gate a friggin death ally entry- meaning entering the castle on the gangway has all sorts of perils (spots that attack it one way)

the tunnel could have one or two dead ends.. I dunno.

Maybe even controlling all the areas that butt up against the moat could be a +4 bonus of "Castle siege" as no food or water can go in.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby shakeycat on Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:53 am

Siege II: Revenge of the King

After years of being pummeled by forces from the South, North King gathered his army and set off to seek his revenge. As he approached the Great Southern Forest/River/Mountains/Desert, the king mysteriously vanished. One Northman claimed he saw one of Southern Queen's warriors waiting in the woods on that fateful night. Eight search parties have spread out across the Southlands to find the King. ...who is inside the castle being held prisoner ... yadda yadda

(therefore, the map must be oriented with the castle on the south - a 180, like Andy suggested. It could even be in the lower left corner, with a guard tower on each side. The king would be made obvious, held in the castle. Each party would have a path, paths would cross, join, be equal, and all lead to castle.)
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:44 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image

Click image to enlarge.
image


OK so I was trying to come up with some ways to make Siege II different from Siege I. This lead me to start eliminating various items from the map. I was eventually left with just the castle. So I decided that I would just start over.

This time instead of laying out any items such as castles, roads, territs, beaches, cannons, siege engines ...etc., I would only lay out a basic "lay of the land" template.

From this template we can create a map with countless possibilities. It can be a Siege II, or it can be a Feudal themed map. It can be a cowboy and Indian theme, or anything that floats your boat. You are only limited by the breadth of your imagine.

So, how about a group effort to come up with something that is unique in the way of CC maps ?

The style is unique in that it is less of a "flat" map, and more of a diorama, that is set at a slight angle to show the 3D topography.

Anything CAN be altered as this is just a rough draft, so as to have a starting point. So, you all are invited to knock yourselves out. Lets see who can come up with the best idea. Take this template and do what ever you want. You do NOT need to be an artist. We are only looking for a solid game play to start off with, such as the territs and connections. You can use circles and squares and other basic shapes to represent castles, cannons, impasses ...etc.

I can not wait to see what all of you bright people come up with. :D
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby 00iCon on Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:48 am

mmkay DJ teflon... but i think there are too many of these "starting point vs neutrals" type maps around...
On the other hand Third crusade had an excellent idea, combining the normal troops spread evenly with capital cities starting with more troops.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:31 am

i think there are too many of these "starting point vs neutrals" type maps around...


Oh, and there aren't enough standard drop maps? :roll:
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:45 am

natty_dread wrote:
i think there are too many of these "starting point vs neutrals" type maps around...


Oh, and there aren't enough standard drop maps? :roll:


Well, i see what hes saying. There's too many conquest maps that are all the same. Compare, Pelopennesian War with Feudal Epic, for example.

I think if this map goes the conquest route, it's going to have a unique approach.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:37 am

Pelo war and Feudal Epic are completely different IMO...

They have some similarities, but the gameplay is different. Then there's Poland, which is way different from any other conquest map... New world, which is also very different. Das Schloss... need I say more?

But honestly, comparing the amount of conquest maps vs. random drop maps, there are much much more random drops. So simply saying "the site doesn't need any more conquest maps" is not true. We do need them, but they should be well made and unique. Such as Lunar War :D
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:33 pm

With the coding limitations, it has become apparent to me, that the only place left for much room in the way of uniqueness, is in the graphics dept.
The gameplay has all been worked out to a science, and no matter which GP type you pick, the map will be just like a dozen others.

Graphics on the other hand, is wide open in the way of uniqueness and originality. I think that if you are truly going to come up with something different, you must look to the graphics.

So I say just pick a GP type and lay it out. It does not matter to me if it is conquest or drop.

I would love to create a diorama scene, with all of the roads, villages, train tracks ..etc.

Remember that this draft is only a rough sketch, and only meant as a starting point. Anything can be added, subtracted, changed. 8-)
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:16 pm

porkenbeans wrote:@ cw,
1.) The cannon tower is higher elevation and the bricks will eventually be enlarged to make it more clear.
It still seems like it would have to either be extremely large or extremely high up.

2.) the castle IS brown.
I meant the moats. The castles I have seen all had brown moats.

3.) The color of the water in the moat is darker because it is deeper and also receives less light.
See above.
That being said, I am glad that you like it. ;)
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:18 pm

porkenbeans wrote:OK so I was trying to come up with some ways to make Siege II different from Siege I. This lead me to start eliminating various items from the map. I was eventually left with just the castle. So I decided that I would just start over.


:lol: :lol:
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:04 pm

With the coding limitations, it has become apparent to me, that the only place left for much room in the way of uniqueness, is in the graphics dept.
The gameplay has all been worked out to a science, and no matter which GP type you pick, the map will be just like a dozen others.


That is so not true. There are still lots of things that can be done to make the gameplay unique. In fact every map's gameplay is unique, some are less original than others, but there's no 2 maps with exact same gameplay.

But there are still countless things that haven't been done in CC gameplay. You just need to use your imagination. Monsters is a good example of innovative gameplay. Another good example is Research & Conquer. And with more XML updates promised to come... who knows what kind of maps we can make a year from now?

Only limit to the originality/uniqueness of gameplay is your imagination. And the current XML of course, but it still gives you very much leeway, you just need to use that said imagination to get work around the obstacles...
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:05 pm

natty_dread wrote:
With the coding limitations, it has become apparent to me, that the only place left for much room in the way of uniqueness, is in the graphics dept.
The gameplay has all been worked out to a science, and no matter which GP type you pick, the map will be just like a dozen others.


That is so not true. There are still lots of things that can be done to make the gameplay unique. In fact every map's gameplay is unique, some are less original than others, but there's no 2 maps with exact same gameplay.

But there are still countless things that haven't been done in CC gameplay. You just need to use your imagination. Monsters is a good example of innovative gameplay. Another good example is Research & Conquer. And with more XML updates promised to come... who knows what kind of maps we can make a year from now?

Only limit to the originality/uniqueness of gameplay is your imagination. And the current XML of course, but it still gives you very much leeway, you just need to use that said imagination to get work around the obstacles...
If you took away the graphics from all of the maps, you would be left with x's and o's and arrows. No 2 maps would be exactly the same, but close enough to it. there are only so many combination's of layouts, But in essence, with the GP having to meet the same requirements for all maps, In the end they are all pretty much the same thing, when it comes to working out your strategy. The over-attention to making everything equal, has assured this.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:39 am

porkenbeans wrote:If you took away the graphics from all of the maps, you would be left with x's and o's and arrows. No 2 maps would be exactly the same, but close enough to it. there are only so many combination's of layouts, But in essence, with the GP having to meet the same requirements for all maps, In the end they are all pretty much the same thing, when it comes to working out your strategy. The over-attention to making everything equal, has assured this.


I'm sorry but that's just total baloney.

Of course if you take away the graphics of a map you'll be left with a raw frame of a map, such as Classic shapes. But the graphics and gameplay should compliment each other. For example, when you have the castles in Feudal that can bombard all their respective territories, that gives an impression that the castles have cannons or catapults that can be used against enemy troops trying to siege them... there are numerous examples of how you can use the game engine to create a mood that supplements the theme of the map.

Porkenbeans, I understand that you're a "graphics guy", but there's still no need to downplay the importance of gameplay. In fact that is probably the worst way to go when you're looking for someone to do the gameplay for your map ;)

But anyway, enough derailing this thread. If you want to continue this debate let's move it to the foundry discussions, eh? Or we can just agree to disagree on this...
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:54 pm

natty_dread wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:If you took away the graphics from all of the maps, you would be left with x's and o's and arrows. No 2 maps would be exactly the same, but close enough to it. there are only so many combination's of layouts, But in essence, with the GP having to meet the same requirements for all maps, In the end they are all pretty much the same thing, when it comes to working out your strategy. The over-attention to making everything equal, has assured this.


I'm sorry but that's just total baloney.

Of course if you take away the graphics of a map you'll be left with a raw frame of a map, such as Classic shapes. But the graphics and gameplay should compliment each other. For example, when you have the castles in Feudal that can bombard all their respective territories, that gives an impression that the castles have cannons or catapults that can be used against enemy troops trying to siege them... there are numerous examples of how you can use the game engine to create a mood that supplements the theme of the map.

Porkenbeans, I understand that you're a "graphics guy", but there's still no need to downplay the importance of gameplay. In fact that is probably the worst way to go when you're looking for someone to do the gameplay for your map ;)

But anyway, enough derailing this thread. If you want to continue this debate let's move it to the foundry discussions, eh? Or we can just agree to disagree on this...
I am afraid that you are misunderstanding what I intended to say. I was not trying to argue the old battle of gfx v gp. I have come over to the idea that the gp is very important, and I believe that if you re-read my post, you would see, that I acknowledge that the GP guys have worked it into a science. All I was trying to say was, I do not care one way or the other which type of gameplay is used for this project. I am told that the GP should come first. Well, here I am leaving it wide open for those that really know this stuff well, to render up some gameplay. I would even be open to doing this map to accommodate more than one type. In the end, a poll could determine which version is best.

This IS a fantasy map, in that it is not a real place. So, the lay of the land can be changed to whatever the gp dictates. This is only a rough sketch to have someplace to start. As soon as I see some rudimentary gameplay posted, I will get to work on something. :D
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:21 pm

Fair enough, let's leave it at that... Btw, if I find some spare time at some point I could give a shot at doing some gameplay sketches. I have a few ideas, but I need to develop them a bit further...
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:25 pm

natty_dread wrote:Fair enough, let's leave it at that... Btw, if I find some spare time at some point I could give a shot at doing some gameplay sketches. I have a few ideas, but I need to develop them a bit further...
Can not wait, any hint on the theme ?
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:00 pm

Well, I've been thinking of a fantasy theme... however I haven't yet had time to develop it much, just a rough idea in my head... I'll try to get some work done on it this week.

You know, knights and dragons, princess-in-a-castle-needs-to-be-rescued- kind of thing ;)
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 pm

natty_dread wrote:Well, I've been thinking of a fantasy theme... however I haven't yet had time to develop it much, just a rough idea in my head... I'll try to get some work done on it this week.

You know, knights and dragons, princess-in-a-castle-needs-to-be-rescued- kind of thing ;)
Yeah, that sounds cool. Maybe a flying dragon that u need to go through to save the queen.

What would really be cool is if the dragon appeared in a different spot each turn. But that is prob. imposable with the xml. Think about it, the dragon would revert to 10 neutral each turn. You win by holding the queen till your next turn. You could take her, but then someone could take her before your turn.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:35 pm

Like you said it would be both cool and impossible. ;)

My idea however includes "heroes" as starting positions... and there would be at least 4 different types of heroes, ie. warriors, mages, thieves and such, each would have a different special ability... It will take some work to ensure gameplay balance while still keeping the heroes different from each other but I think it can be managed.

The objective of course will be to rescue the princess from the tower.
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