Siege II -new map-

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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:18 pm

porkenbeans wrote:OK so I was trying to come up with some ways to make Siege II different from Siege I. This lead me to start eliminating various items from the map. I was eventually left with just the castle. So I decided that I would just start over.


:lol: :lol:
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:04 pm

With the coding limitations, it has become apparent to me, that the only place left for much room in the way of uniqueness, is in the graphics dept.
The gameplay has all been worked out to a science, and no matter which GP type you pick, the map will be just like a dozen others.


That is so not true. There are still lots of things that can be done to make the gameplay unique. In fact every map's gameplay is unique, some are less original than others, but there's no 2 maps with exact same gameplay.

But there are still countless things that haven't been done in CC gameplay. You just need to use your imagination. Monsters is a good example of innovative gameplay. Another good example is Research & Conquer. And with more XML updates promised to come... who knows what kind of maps we can make a year from now?

Only limit to the originality/uniqueness of gameplay is your imagination. And the current XML of course, but it still gives you very much leeway, you just need to use that said imagination to get work around the obstacles...
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:05 pm

natty_dread wrote:
With the coding limitations, it has become apparent to me, that the only place left for much room in the way of uniqueness, is in the graphics dept.
The gameplay has all been worked out to a science, and no matter which GP type you pick, the map will be just like a dozen others.


That is so not true. There are still lots of things that can be done to make the gameplay unique. In fact every map's gameplay is unique, some are less original than others, but there's no 2 maps with exact same gameplay.

But there are still countless things that haven't been done in CC gameplay. You just need to use your imagination. Monsters is a good example of innovative gameplay. Another good example is Research & Conquer. And with more XML updates promised to come... who knows what kind of maps we can make a year from now?

Only limit to the originality/uniqueness of gameplay is your imagination. And the current XML of course, but it still gives you very much leeway, you just need to use that said imagination to get work around the obstacles...
If you took away the graphics from all of the maps, you would be left with x's and o's and arrows. No 2 maps would be exactly the same, but close enough to it. there are only so many combination's of layouts, But in essence, with the GP having to meet the same requirements for all maps, In the end they are all pretty much the same thing, when it comes to working out your strategy. The over-attention to making everything equal, has assured this.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:39 am

porkenbeans wrote:If you took away the graphics from all of the maps, you would be left with x's and o's and arrows. No 2 maps would be exactly the same, but close enough to it. there are only so many combination's of layouts, But in essence, with the GP having to meet the same requirements for all maps, In the end they are all pretty much the same thing, when it comes to working out your strategy. The over-attention to making everything equal, has assured this.


I'm sorry but that's just total baloney.

Of course if you take away the graphics of a map you'll be left with a raw frame of a map, such as Classic shapes. But the graphics and gameplay should compliment each other. For example, when you have the castles in Feudal that can bombard all their respective territories, that gives an impression that the castles have cannons or catapults that can be used against enemy troops trying to siege them... there are numerous examples of how you can use the game engine to create a mood that supplements the theme of the map.

Porkenbeans, I understand that you're a "graphics guy", but there's still no need to downplay the importance of gameplay. In fact that is probably the worst way to go when you're looking for someone to do the gameplay for your map ;)

But anyway, enough derailing this thread. If you want to continue this debate let's move it to the foundry discussions, eh? Or we can just agree to disagree on this...
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:54 pm

natty_dread wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:If you took away the graphics from all of the maps, you would be left with x's and o's and arrows. No 2 maps would be exactly the same, but close enough to it. there are only so many combination's of layouts, But in essence, with the GP having to meet the same requirements for all maps, In the end they are all pretty much the same thing, when it comes to working out your strategy. The over-attention to making everything equal, has assured this.


I'm sorry but that's just total baloney.

Of course if you take away the graphics of a map you'll be left with a raw frame of a map, such as Classic shapes. But the graphics and gameplay should compliment each other. For example, when you have the castles in Feudal that can bombard all their respective territories, that gives an impression that the castles have cannons or catapults that can be used against enemy troops trying to siege them... there are numerous examples of how you can use the game engine to create a mood that supplements the theme of the map.

Porkenbeans, I understand that you're a "graphics guy", but there's still no need to downplay the importance of gameplay. In fact that is probably the worst way to go when you're looking for someone to do the gameplay for your map ;)

But anyway, enough derailing this thread. If you want to continue this debate let's move it to the foundry discussions, eh? Or we can just agree to disagree on this...
I am afraid that you are misunderstanding what I intended to say. I was not trying to argue the old battle of gfx v gp. I have come over to the idea that the gp is very important, and I believe that if you re-read my post, you would see, that I acknowledge that the GP guys have worked it into a science. All I was trying to say was, I do not care one way or the other which type of gameplay is used for this project. I am told that the GP should come first. Well, here I am leaving it wide open for those that really know this stuff well, to render up some gameplay. I would even be open to doing this map to accommodate more than one type. In the end, a poll could determine which version is best.

This IS a fantasy map, in that it is not a real place. So, the lay of the land can be changed to whatever the gp dictates. This is only a rough sketch to have someplace to start. As soon as I see some rudimentary gameplay posted, I will get to work on something. :D
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:21 pm

Fair enough, let's leave it at that... Btw, if I find some spare time at some point I could give a shot at doing some gameplay sketches. I have a few ideas, but I need to develop them a bit further...
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:25 pm

natty_dread wrote:Fair enough, let's leave it at that... Btw, if I find some spare time at some point I could give a shot at doing some gameplay sketches. I have a few ideas, but I need to develop them a bit further...
Can not wait, any hint on the theme ?
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:00 pm

Well, I've been thinking of a fantasy theme... however I haven't yet had time to develop it much, just a rough idea in my head... I'll try to get some work done on it this week.

You know, knights and dragons, princess-in-a-castle-needs-to-be-rescued- kind of thing ;)
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 pm

natty_dread wrote:Well, I've been thinking of a fantasy theme... however I haven't yet had time to develop it much, just a rough idea in my head... I'll try to get some work done on it this week.

You know, knights and dragons, princess-in-a-castle-needs-to-be-rescued- kind of thing ;)
Yeah, that sounds cool. Maybe a flying dragon that u need to go through to save the queen.

What would really be cool is if the dragon appeared in a different spot each turn. But that is prob. imposable with the xml. Think about it, the dragon would revert to 10 neutral each turn. You win by holding the queen till your next turn. You could take her, but then someone could take her before your turn.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:35 pm

Like you said it would be both cool and impossible. ;)

My idea however includes "heroes" as starting positions... and there would be at least 4 different types of heroes, ie. warriors, mages, thieves and such, each would have a different special ability... It will take some work to ensure gameplay balance while still keeping the heroes different from each other but I think it can be managed.

The objective of course will be to rescue the princess from the tower.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:33 pm

I'm still working on the diagram for the original images lol - hopefully I can get some decent scribbles on a pale print-out scanned at work tomorrow to show the ideas clearly.
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:45 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:I'm still working on the diagram for the original images lol - hopefully I can get some decent scribbles on a pale print-out scanned at work tomorrow to show the ideas clearly.
That's cool. I would like to see it. Again to you and anyone else that would like to take a stab at it, YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AN ARTIST. You do not even need to have photoshop or comparable program. All you need is a printer to run off a few copies of the template. Then you can take any writing utensil, and scribble out your ideas. Then all you need to do is open a free account at any image hosting site such as photobucket. Upload your image and link to that image in this thread. I will be glad to help if you get stuck. :D
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby Teflon Kris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:53 pm

OK, here's the gameplay notes / diagram / sketch (map amended slightly first):
show: Diagram


Here's another version which may be clearer:
show: Diagram
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby 00iCon on Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:56 pm

same boring tunnel...
as i mentioned, can we have an inset of a cave network instead, which has multiple entrances and exits...
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Re: Siege II -new map-

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:19 pm

I like what you came up with. :D

The swamp needs to be lowered down to the shallows area.

We can nix the tunnel, and have a couple of underground passages from the back of the hall, that one way attack the swamp and somewhere on the right of the map. These one way attacks are depicted by a cave entrance, but the tunnel itself is not shown.

DJ,
You seem to be the only one to come up with a GP layout, so I am just going to go ahead and offer you the rights for this map. If you go and read the link that I provided to the original Siege map, you will see that numerous people have asked for a Siege II. That along with mibi's blessing, gives us enough to submit a design brief. If you go ahead and do that, and it gets aproved and moved into the GP workshop, I will be available to continue on as the Artist.

One thing that I would suggest though, Reduce the amount of territs a bit. We want to make sure to have enough room, and all of the territs need to be large enough so as to be able to be legible once we scale the map down for the small version.
Last edited by porkenbeans on Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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