Supernaculum

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Re: New map idea

Postby Obrens on Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:52 pm

Arghead wrote:Look again to red and purple. Red have 3 borders. Purple have only one. I think is easly secure purple.

Purple has the bridge=border. So, two borders and four territories; Red - three borders and three territories. Also, there are the port and airport.
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Re: New map idea

Postby Teflon Kris on Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:13 pm

This is looking wicked =D> =D>
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Re: New map idea

Postby Arghead on Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Hello!

Here is the latest version. What do you think? Do you think it is ready to submit?

Image

Basic starting rules:
- Each player starts with a set of three boats, airplanes, helicopters or submarines.
- All areas of the islands are neutral.
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Re: New map idea

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:38 pm

Totally! Send in a design brief. The legend looks so pretty :D One teensy tiny edit: you have two C1's and 2 sets of F's. :oops:
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Re: New map idea

Postby Obrens on Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:01 pm

Great job!
Now just correct the C's and F's.
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Re: New map idea

Postby Arghead on Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:52 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
:o :o :o :o :o
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
:) :) :) :) :)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:mrgreen:
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Re: New map idea

Postby natty dread on Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:18 am

This is starting to look better.

How about including the countries that are fighting here? Like putting them in insets, kinda like how the european countries are in the New world map.

It would be more interesting to fight with, for example, "americans vs. russians vs. chinese" than "c-ships vs. d-airplanes" and such...
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Re: New map idea

Postby Arghead on Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:49 am

OK, another one:

Image

[b]Basic starting rules:[/b]
- Each player starts with a set of three boats, airplanes, helicopters or submarines.
- All areas of the islands are neutral.
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Re: New map idea

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:13 pm

Is that Denmark in the bottom left hand corner? Seems like there'd be a better European country to use. Maybe UK or Germany? Also, I think USA and India should switch vehicles, just cuz I don't think India would have those high-tech planes.

-Sully
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Re: New map idea

Postby Obrens on Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:27 pm

Lol, Sullivan, wtf? You really think that's Denmark? That's Germany, dude. Deutschland! Does it matter who has which weapon? Then Russia should have some good fighter planes instead of subs. Россия ftw!
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Re: New map idea

Postby Arghead on Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:40 pm

Yes, left bottom is Germany.
I believe I could swicth india with japan.
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Re: New map idea

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:54 pm

I thought the flag was Germany's, I was just thrown off by the "DE" territory label.
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Arghead on Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:52 pm

The title: "Supernaculum"
The Latin word that literally means "until the last drop"

The story: In 2028 oil is a feature virtually extinct. A small, unknown and oil-rich island in the North Pacific suddenly becomes a territory that everyone wants to dominate. The major world powers then enter a battle to conquer the island and control the oil.

Basic starting rules:
- Each player starts with a set of three boats, airplanes, helicopters or submarines.
- All areas of the islands are neutral.


Image
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby TaCktiX on Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:12 pm

Alright, I'm going to say this as simply as possible: this map is a waste of time for your talents. Yes, it looks good, I'm certain that with some work the gameplay would be balanced, and you have a consistent theme across the map. All great stuff, especially out of someone who just showed up in the foundry and posted a draft.

But for all those positives, the map just comes across as Bland. Similar gameplay has been done in several battle-based maps (I can think of Stalingrad as at least one example), the graphics are clean but unexciting, and the theme starts stretching plausibility (so people JUST FOUND the new last drop of oil, and they come rushing over to it after they'd been cool without it for a decade or so?).

I am not discrediting your ability to make a map. Rather, I am suggesting that while this is a good trial run of having an idea, making some gameplay, and skinning some attractive graphics, you should move on to another map. There's definitely some better idea that you can use to speed through the Foundry.
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:15 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Alright, I'm going to say this as simply as possible: this map is a waste of time for your talents. Yes, it looks good, I'm certain that with some work the gameplay would be balanced, and you have a consistent theme across the map. All great stuff, especially out of someone who just showed up in the foundry and posted a draft.

But for all those positives, the map just comes across as Bland. Similar gameplay has been done in several battle-based maps (I can think of Stalingrad as at least one example), the graphics are clean but unexciting, and the theme starts stretching plausibility (so people JUST FOUND the new last drop of oil, and they come rushing over to it after they'd been cool without it for a decade or so?).

I am not discrediting your ability to make a map. Rather, I am suggesting that while this is a good trial run of having an idea, making some gameplay, and skinning some attractive graphics, you should move on to another map. There's definitely some better idea that you can use to speed through the Foundry.

:o What??? I completely disagree. Stalingrad is much different from this, as this map is simpler and not so overcrowded with cumbersome rules and symbols. I think you should keep going, Arghead. It seems like this map has more creative juices than Thyseneal. Heck, Thyseneal is a fictional place with nothing terribly new, so how does this rank that much lower to the point where it should be dropped completely? And who even cares about the accuracy of the story? Does it really matter that much? And if there are better ideas than this for him to go for, what are they? I think your reasoning needs more support if you want Arghead to throw away the time he's spent on this.

-Sully
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:34 pm

In short, I agree with Tacktix. Arghead certainly has mapmaking ability but this current map is lacking that certain something to make it a good game to play.

The storyline and its plot holes are a big stumbling block. If there's no more oil then how'd everyone get there? Furthermore, are the Indian's flying old Spitfires? How has this island eluded centuries of cartography and exploration and years of satellite imagery? Shouldn't one just drill offshore and eliminate the whole fighting on land or, just shoot some missiles and have a good ole nuclear war over it, survivor gets the island. Not to mention, its obvious from the thread when the complaint that there was no meaning behind this island in the ocean, random countries and oil wells turned up in the next update. It didn't seem thoroughly thought through.

As for comparisons with Thyseneal... well, Thyseneal has the feeling of an epic Fantasy map and that goes a long way. From the cultural castles to the trivialities of the region locations and bonuses, the map looks and feels like it has a history and a story to it. This map does not. The lines seem too arbitrary and none of the regions stand out as different to another.

So in conclusion, it is the lack of solid setting that this map lacks. The current arrangement is too improvised and the story is lacking in plausibility and excitement. I'm not saying Arghead is a bad mapmaker or has no talent, but rather this current map is a dud. No need for hard feelings though, I, and many others, went through the same thing. Check out my crappy Japan map to see what I mean.

viewtopic.php?f=242&t=72507&p=1750031#p1750031
Sketchblog [Update 07/25/11]: http://indyhelixsketch.blogspot.com/
Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=116575
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby natty dread on Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:01 am

Victor Sullivan wrote: :o What??? I completely disagree. Stalingrad is much different from this, as this map is simpler and not so overcrowded with cumbersome rules and symbols. I think you should keep going, Arghead. It seems like this map has more creative juices than Thyseneal. Heck, Thyseneal is a fictional place with nothing terribly new, so how does this rank that much lower to the point where it should be dropped completely? And who even cares about the accuracy of the story? Does it really matter that much? And if there are better ideas than this for him to go for, what are they? I think your reasoning needs more support if you want Arghead to throw away the time he's spent on this.

-Sully


Victor, absolutely no offense, but you're pretty new to this whole foundry business, and you seem to still be at the phase where you get excited about any new map idea...

The story is a very relevant part to the map. At this point, CC already has lots of maps, so certainly it is getting harder and harder to come up with new ideas. And yes, in the past when CC had less maps, perhaps it was easier to get shoddier concepts through - case in point: Crossword. I never got that map (no offense to Jota, I just don't get the attraction.)

So what makes a good map? I'd say a good map consists of three elements: gameplay, graphics and concept. Two of them this idea/draft fulfills adequately, but the concept part - tying it all together, having a common theme that matches both the gameplay and the graphics part, that is what is currently lacking here.

You should first come up with a good story and concept for a map - a theme. Then come up with a gameplay that complements the theme - when I've explained this, I've always used Feudal as an example since to me, it's the simplest example of theme and gameplay working together well. So you have some feudal warlords with their kingdoms, and they each start with only their castle. So the castle is a resource on it's own with it good defenses and infrastructure, so it gives an autodeploy. Conquering peasant lands gives you more resources, therefore you get a bonus if you hold more territories in your kingdom, and additional bonus for holding villages, and so on... lastly, if you conquer all the castles of your rival warlords, you win the game. It's quite simple really - the hard part is coming up with a good idea/theme that carries the rest of the map.


Lastly, I'm stating my opinion about this particular map. I'd say it is possible to salvage this idea, but IH and Tacktix both raised some valid points that would need to be addressed - I honestly think it may be easier to start over with another project, and maybe return to this one at a later day.

But if you really want to make a tropical island battle scene, I'd suggest something Lost-ish: an island somewhere, with mysterious laboratories and doomsday devices, battle of good and evil and all that... my advice: forget the map for a while, just think of it as writing a story. In fact, you can even write the story, just forget the map at this point and focus on the story... then, when you have a complete storyline done, that is able to stand on it's own, start adapting it for a map. Then you can present the foundry with something that really shows that you have thought it through, and you'll have much easier ride through.

I see lots of graphical talent in this map btw.
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:42 am

natty_dread wrote:Victor, absolutely no offense, but you're pretty new to this whole foundry business, and you seem to still be at the phase where you get excited about any new map idea...

Hey, if I don't like the map, I generally don't comment. Unless, I feel like it can be fixed, then I post something. But if I don't like the concept, I just don't comment. "If you don't have anything to say, don't say anything at all", right? It seems like I love every map because the maps I comment on I like.
natty_dread wrote:But if you really want to make a tropical island battle scene, I'd suggest something Lost-ish: an island somewhere, with mysterious laboratories and doomsday devices, battle of good and evil and all that... my advice: forget the map for a while, just think of it as writing a story. In fact, you can even write the story, just forget the map at this point and focus on the story... then, when you have a complete storyline done, that is able to stand on it's own, start adapting it for a map. Then you can present the foundry with something that really shows that you have thought it through, and you'll have much easier ride through.

Now this is a neat idea ;) I loved LOST sooooo much (gotta love Terry O'Quinn and Michael Emerson). I think this concept could easily be turned into something aweshome, just as long as it doesn't get Das Schloß crazy ;)

-Sully
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:54 pm

If I ever would do/support a map that isn't a historical battle again (Zombie Invasion hopefully will survive my current rl distraction) I'd probably try to do a version of the old West End Games board game Junta. Dunno if anyone ever played it, but the idea was a tropical island ruled by a 'typical' corrupt banana republic where up to 8 families shared political and military power... of course, there were frequent revolutions and lots of bullets every election, as well as assassinations and backstabbing ;)

I'm not sure if that really would fit your style or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:57 pm

Big debate guys.

Although it has to be said that you clearly have the skills to produce some good maps, and have developed this one with rapid updates, I wouldn't scratch your project as quickly as some of the above views might suggest.

Yes, you could make better maps, but, with a little tweaking you could persevere with this one and come out with a decent finished product if you wish.

You're only big issue is the scenario.

Scenario Tweaking

Ok, some of us like fantasy maps and some of us like factual maps based on actual history and geography.

Your map is somewhere in between.

So is Fractured America and that progressed through quite nicely.

Which means, either setting the scenario further in the future to make it more science-fiction (e.g. clone development, futuristic planes / ships), or working on a real location and developing the oil story a little is what you might need (e.g. a bunch of real pacific islands and the breakdown of OPNA (Oil Producing Nations Alliance), or changing it to a uranium story?

Honestly, a few tweaks could get the right balance between fiction and reality.

:D
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Arghead on Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:06 am

Most commentaries say that the graphics are good, the gameplay can be good but the concept is weak. Think the concept is weak and for that reason I should leave this map and make and new one. Well, I admit that the concept can be weak, but I think the concept is the least important.

Many available maps are maps of countries. What is the concept of these maps? The truth is that are always making maps of countries in which the only difference between each other are the boundaries. Everything else is equal. Some map are repeated as is the case in South America that has already two maps and yet is about to leave one third. What is the difference between them? The concept? The borders? Everything else is equal. Look at Scandinavia. Already have a map, recently made, but are doing another. What is the difference between them? The color?

Apparently it was enough if I came here with a map of a country that has not been represented to be accepted. And there are more than two hundred countries to choose from ... So it would be very easy ...

Even some map that have a strong concept, are doomed to failure if the graphics are weak or if the gameplay is bad.

What leads a player to choose a map? The concept? I doubt it. I think it is the graphics and the special rules, different from normal, that force us to think the game differently, new tactics. Gameplay

The map that I propose has some special features that make the map much more interesting than a map of any country. I do not need to explain that. Is everething on the map.

So, it seems the decision is yours. If you want go forward with this map, I will be happy, If not, I will be hapy too. Making this map on the computer was a very quick process so I do not missed much time of my life.

PS1: Yes, there are Spitfiers. I think it is more reasonable for India to have Spitfires than having space shuttle.

PS2: This map has nothing to do with Stalingrad. Or you did not understand this map or you did not understand the Stalingrad map.

PS3: I hope my bad english is understandable
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Teflon Kris on Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:15 pm

Go on, go forward :D

Just tweak the concept a bit - either base the islands on some real islands (which may have changed shape due to global warming), or develop the oil struggle a touch, or swap oil for human clones or uranium or plutonium or something.

Alternatively, if you abandon the project, contact me - I have some very unique ideas (not Scandinavia Map 3 or Europe Map 23)

:D
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Arghead on Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:58 pm

Hi. Here I am again a year later. Tell me what's wrong on this map, which can give improved, because in my opinion, here's a great map.
thanks
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Re: Supernaculum

Postby Gillipig on Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:35 am

Arghead wrote:Hi. Here I am again a year later. Tell me what's wrong on this map, which can give improved, because in my opinion, here's a great map.
thanks

I like the idea. I'd suggest you draw out starting positions and neutrals because it will be easier to comment on gameplay that way. Autodeploy on the ships, planes etc would be fitting.
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