Eurasia Map [Old thread]

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Re: Eurasia [6.12.11]

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:27 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Hurm... cool. I like it so far but I think it still needs a little something. Maybe throw in some superbonuses? Capitals?


It already has superbonuses. Look at the groupings in the legend.

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Re: Eurasia [6.12.11] pg2

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:55 pm

Oh, perhaps Helix, like myself, thought the Super-Bonuses were Heading/Division titles for easy reference.


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Re: Eurasia [6.12.11] pg2

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:44 pm

If possible can you add also Java? Why you left it out? :-s
Technically is part of Asia. Just add some pixels in the lower part, draw the whole borneo (it will look better) and add the Java island. ;)

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African territories don't convice me, what's the reason to have them?
In any case very nice start natty, I like this map. :)

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Re: Eurasia [6.12.11] pg2

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:12 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:If possible can you add also Java? Why you left it out? :-s


1. Space constraints. The image height is 1000 already pixels, which is the maximum.
2. Oceania isn't strictly speaking a part of Eurasia, so I don't see including the whole of it necessary. I'd rather keep it as a small peripheral bonus.

thenobodies80 wrote:African territories don't convice me, what's the reason to have them?


They are analoguous to antarctic on World 2.1. They provide some extra mobility on the left side of the map.

thenobodies80 wrote:In any case very nice start natty, I like this map. :)


Glad to hear that.

AndyDufresne wrote:Oh, perhaps Helix, like myself, thought the Super-Bonuses were Heading/Division titles for easy reference.


Understandable, however they will be clearer once the bonus numbers are in.
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Re: Eurasia [6.12.11] pg2

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:44 pm

I didn't mean the whole australia. I posted the Wallace line (in red on the image)because it is the imaginary border between asia and oceania, java is on the asian side ;)

About space you have other 200 px if you want : SUPERSIZE LARGE MAP: WIDTH up to 1400 px ; HEIGHT 1200 px

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Re: Eurasia [6.12.11] pg2

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:37 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I didn't mean the whole australia. I posted the Wallace line (in red on the image)because it is the imaginary border between asia and oceania, java is on the asian side


Yes but it still falls outside the current cropping.

thenobodies80 wrote:About space you have other 200 px if you want : SUPERSIZE LARGE MAP: WIDTH up to 1400 px ; HEIGHT 1200 px


But the small map height restriction is 800 px.

The supersize limits are weirdly inconsistent that way. When the small limit is 800, it doesn't matter that the large limit is 1200... if I aim for a +25% size differential then the maximum height for the large becomes 1.25 * 800 = 1000.


Anyway, I got the legend finished, and changed the colours so that they should be pretty ok for CB people.

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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:19 pm

There seems to be some inconsistency in your naming. Like Fennoscandia. I get that you live there and want to represent with the proper term for that area, BUT if you are going to do that, be consistent. Turn Western Europe into Iberian Peninsula, etc.

I'm sure you'll disagree, but it just strikes me as odd to have a super specific term like Fennoscandia (when most would lump it into the simplified Scandinavia), and yet you have another bonus region called "Other Stans." Go with one or the other - common names or technical terms.

Why did you decide to split Eastern Europe into its own tiny super bonus? Why not add in the Balkan/Romania/Greece terits to beef that up and move Italy & islands into Central Europe (which is more accurate anyway). Yes, its bordered by the Med, but so are significant chunks of France & Spain & Turkey, etc etc. (Romania - on the other hand - has no border with the Med). I think that makes more sense than having a super bonus of 19 and another of 5.

You asked for more impassable suggestions, so I'll again suggest tundra.

PS - the textures and depth of the oceans and seas are AWESOME.
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:31 pm

I have to agree with lostatlimbo. There are some curious names you've used. I, myself, prefer more technical names. For example, "Fennoscandia" is technically not correct, since that bonus area includes Denmark, Svalbard and Faroe, and doesn't include the Kola peninsula (Murmansk). This would be best as "Nordic Countries". "Other Stans" could be called Russian Turkestan, as that area was called during pre-independence (a la the USSR). And the territory of "Angora" might best be called "Anatolia" or "Turkey" or "Ankara", perhaps the first being the better option. I'm not familiar with the term "Angola" used to describe that region (though maybe perhaps animals of that region, or something? I thought I remember there being some "Angora Cat" or "Angora Sheep" or some such nonsense).

Elsewise, the border between Austria and Germany looks way off, and I'm not too keen on the Baltics having their own one-territory bonus area. I they'd best be combined with "East Europe".

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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:30 am

What they said. It seems funny to see East India instead of Assam, and combining Jordan and Israel.

Anyways this is obvious so here is what you have asked for.
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:41 am

Names, names, names... yeah, most of the names were thrown together pretty quickly without thought and I'll be making them more consistent in the future.

Hm, I always thought Fennoscandia was just a term used to refer to Scandinavia + Finland. And I even live in the area... Yup. Oh well, I guess I'll do some name changes.

lostatlimbo wrote:Why did you decide to split Eastern Europe into its own tiny super bonus?


Small bonuses are needed too. I think it's best when there's a variety of sizes between bonuses, which applies to superbonuses too.

lostatlimbo wrote:move Italy & islands into Central Europe (which is more accurate anyway)


Nopes, Italy is definitely considered a part of mediterranean countries. You might have a case on Romania, though.

lostatlimbo wrote:You asked for more impassable suggestions, so I'll again suggest tundra.


I meant specific locations where impassables should be. If you have any suggestions I'll hear them.

lostatlimbo wrote:PS - the textures and depth of the oceans and seas are AWESOME.


Heh... thanks. I love making textures. It's kind of my specialty...



Victor Sullivan wrote:I'm not familiar with the term "Angola" used to describe that region


Angora is the old name for Ankara (while Angola is a whole another country), also refers to the general area where Angora sheeps live. It just seemed weird to name it Turkey when it's not all of Turkey... But I guess I could just call it Anatolia.

Victor Sullivan wrote:the border between Austria and Germany looks way off


Maybe that's because Austria kind of also includes the Czech. Anyway. Borders can be fudged whenever it benefits gameplay clarity. You should know this, Victor.

Victor Sullivan wrote:I'm not too keen on the Baltics having their own one-territory bonus area. I they'd best be combined with "East Europe".


Nah, 1 territory bonuses are fine. Again, I like to have a scale of bonuses. From 1 territory to 12. Anyway, Baltics isn't really an Eastern European country. It's it's own region and deserves to be recognized on this map, I feel.

isaiah40 wrote:It seems funny to see East India instead of Assam, and combining Jordan and Israel.


First of all... I don't subscribe to the MrBenn school of mapmaking. I don't think it suits any purpose to make a map where 1 country = 1 territory. I feel it's counterintuitive... in what world does it make any kind of sense that 1 army can hold the entirety of Russia, while that same army is also required to hold a place like Kaliningrad or Vatican? This is just my opinion... Europa is an ok map but not the kind I would make.

So I like to combine small countries, and split large ones, to limit the disproportionacy between territory sizes. Especially when countries are so small that having them independently would hurt gameplay clarity.

East India can be renamed to Assam though, I would have in the first place but somehow the name had escaped my brain and I was too lazy to search for it ;)

isaiah40 wrote:Anyways this is obvious so here is what you have asked for.


Thanks :D
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:43 am

Updates!

- Name changes: East India > Assam, Angora > Anatolia, Fennoscandia > Nordics, Other Stans > Turkics (not totally accurate for the area but the best I can think of)
- Bonus area changes: Romania from Mediterranean > East Europe
- Added Sulawesi to Oceania
- Added sea routes: Kyushu-Taiwan, Svalbard-Sevetnaya Zemlya
- Added abbreviations legend
- Region bonus: +1 for 4 regions, min 3 max 10

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Re: Eurasia [6.12.11] pg2

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:39 am

natty_dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:I didn't mean the whole australia. I posted the Wallace line (in red on the image)because it is the imaginary border between asia and oceania, java is on the asian side


Yes but it still falls outside the current cropping.

thenobodies80 wrote:About space you have other 200 px if you want : SUPERSIZE LARGE MAP: WIDTH up to 1400 px ; HEIGHT 1200 px


But the small map height restriction is 800 px.

The supersize limits are weirdly inconsistent that way. When the small limit is 800, it doesn't matter that the large limit is 1200... if I aim for a +25% size differential then the maximum height for the large becomes 1.25 * 800 = 1000.



In this way you'll never be wrong natty. Your way to reply to people it's pretty annoying, as I said to you in past, like you know everything about mapmaking and graphics and everyone else is shit.
Now I understand why so much people stay away from the foundry and when I ask them I receive 99% of times the same reply.
Anyway Good Luck with your maps.

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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:39 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:About space you have other 200 px if you want : SUPERSIZE LARGE MAP: WIDTH up to 1400 px ; HEIGHT 1200 px

But the small map height restriction is 800 px.

The supersize limits are weirdly inconsistent that way. When the small limit is 800, it doesn't matter that the large limit is 1200... if I aim for a +25% size differential then the maximum height for the large becomes 1.25 * 800 = 1000.

In this way you'll never be wrong natty. Your way to reply to people it's pretty annoyin, as I said to you in past, like you know everything about mapmaking and graphics and everyone else is shit.
Now I understand why so much people stay away from the foundry and when I ask them I receive 99% of times the same reply.
Anyway Good Luck with your maps.


What the actual f*ck, nobodies? :-s

What exactly is your problem here? Have I been disrespectful to you in any way? I thought one of the foundry guidelines was to respond to all feedback and suggestions in a reasonable way.

You suggested that I add Java on the map, I gave you reasons why I think that isn't feasible. If you think those aren't good reasons, you're welcome to post and explain why.

I don't think my response was annoying or arrogant. I challenge you to show me where I have posted anything that even implies "I know everything and anyone else doesn't know shit". Look at any of my posts/responses in this thread, I've been perfectly cordial and reasonable in all my responses, I've agreed with some feedback, disagreed with some, but I've ALWAYS provided reasons why I disagree if so. I thought that was how the feedback system was supposed to work in the foundry?

Maybe you're just having a bad day and overreacting to something, I don't know. But either way, I don't think I've deserved this personal assault from you. We're adult humans and we should be able to disagree or debate without getting all pissed at each other.
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:11 am

You're drawing a map about eurasia and you add Suwalesi (Oceania) but not Java (Asia)....this is the point.
It's like draw a map about a human body and say "sorry I draw everything but not the head because size restrictions".

I suggested Java for the same reasons people suggested me to add or cut territories when I developed Oceania with pikkio. viewtopic.php?f=358&t=70624&start=15#p1714489

If the problem is that you don't have space just ask, because size restrictions are managed by myself and isaiah40 so it's not a big deal.
As written when they were announced, we have restrictions, but in some exceptional cases we allow more space. (see tisha americas and kabanellas kings court 2 for example).

So, if you want to draw Europe and Asia, draw Europa and Asia, just that. Don't tell me you can't because size restrictions. What you did in your answer was to say that the fault is with size restrictions that are not consistent, it wasn't give me an answer. Then if the fact is you want to have the small 25% smaller than the big, this is a your choice, but we ask for 9% as minimum, so don't tell us that the "rule" set are wrong if you're not willing to fit them to your map.

About the attitude I'm not talking about this thread but more in general, i took just the occasion to take a dig to you. O:)
If you want I can quote some PM or posts where people tell the same about it, but probably this map thread is not the right place so I shut up and I leave you with a common italian proverb "Chi ha orecchie per intendere intenda" ;)

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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:15 am

thenobodies80 wrote:You're drawing a map about eurasia and you add Suwalesi (Oceania) but not Java (Asia)....this is the point.


If it seriously bothers you that much, just pretend that Java is included in the Sumatra territory.

thenobodies80 wrote:If the problem is that you don't have space just ask


No, I won't. I'm not going to add another 100 pixels of height to the map just to add one territory. There's no point in that. The size restrictions aren't the only reason (like I already told you).

The main focus of the map is the Eurasian continent, any islands that fit in are in, the ones that don't are out. I'm not including Iceland either, even though it's a part of Europe, because it's outside the cropping which is focused around the outlines of the Eurasian continent.

thenobodies80 wrote:About the attitude I'm not talking about this thread but more in general, i took just the occasion to take a dig to you. O:)


You're the foundry foreman. Should you really be taking "digs" at mapmakers?

thenobodies80 wrote:If you want I can quote some PM or posts where people tell the same about it


I don't care. If anyone has a problem with me, they can come talk to me directly, and we can work it out. If they'd rather gossip about me in pm:s or whatever, that's their problem.
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:21 am

ANYWAY, now that this unpleasantness is behind us, here's what I ended up with:

- I added territory Crimea, and added it to the Baltics bonus, renaming it Baltics & Crimea. Now it's a bonus with 2 separated territories, that gives an undervalued bonus of +1, it's only really worth to hold as part of the E.E. superbonus.

- Some impassable changes.

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With this change, there's now 126 territories and none have to be coded neutrals, so we have an optimal number of starting territories with the +1/4 territory bonus.

8 players = 15 territories = +3
6 players = 21 territories = +5
5 players = 25 territories = +6
4 players = 31 territories = +7
2-3 players = 42 territories = +10
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg3

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:23 pm

Changed it a bit again, I decided to split Eastern Europe in N/S portions... well, that and I also renamed Sumatra to Sumatra & Java to get Java some representation on the map. I hope this satisfies all parties.

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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:18 pm

natty_dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:About the attitude I'm not talking about this thread but more in general, i took just the occasion to take a dig to you. O:)


You're the foundry foreman. Should you really be taking "digs" at mapmakers?

:lol: Come on, now, natty, that seems like a double-standard. He's just as human as you are! And if anyone needs a dig, it's you, buddy.

That being said, onto mappy things!

natty_dread wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:the border between Austria and Germany looks way off


Maybe that's because Austria kind of also includes the Czech. Anyway. Borders can be fudged whenever it benefits gameplay clarity. You should know this, Victor.

I know this very well, but this is not what I'm suggesting ;) My stance is accuracy should be used when there are no major gameplay repercussions. In this case, I don't see much of one. Be it the land of three-fourths of my ancestors, I might be a little biased and stubborn in this regard :P

Oh, and, why did you decide to put a cap on the territory bonus? Also, I think it would do well to have a connection between UAE and East Iran or Oman and East Iran (UAE--East Iran being my personal preference, given their closeness in comparison).

-Sully

P.S. Oh, yes, I meant Angora, I edited my post after posting it, realizing I used the wrong consonant.
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg3

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:33 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:And if anyone needs a dig, it's you, buddy.


Ha ha. So you're saying that I "need" a foundry mod to come to my map thread, and without any provocation start slinging insults at my face and accuse me of being annoying when I've been nothing but respectful in said thread?

Whatever.

Anyway: The territory Austria represents both Austria and Czech Republic, but due to space constraints it is named simply "Austria". I don't see why Arabia needs any extra connections.
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg2

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:45 pm

natty_dread wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:And if anyone needs a dig, it's you, buddy.


Ha ha. So you're saying that I "need" a foundry mod to come to my map thread, and without any provocation start slinging insults at my face and accuse me of being annoying when I've been nothing but respectful in said thread?

Whatever. If you have such a low opinion of me, then just stay out of my map threads.

I never said anything of the sort. I have respect for you with regard to your mapmaking knowledge and such, but some of that is weakened when you act less than respectful to others inside and outside of this forum. It seems nobodies agrees at least to a certain extent.

Anywho...
natty_dread wrote:Anyway: The territory Austria represents both Austria and Czech Republic, but due to space constraints it is named simply "Austria".

Hm, almost. If it included all of Austria, Germany wouldn't connect to Italy, and perhaps it shouldn't. And even so, Germany's eastern border shouldn't look off, given the Czech Republic is included in the Austria territory. But perhaps it's petty.

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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg3

Postby mviola on Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:46 pm

Shouldn't Norrland be called North Sweden to keep everything consistent with the labeling? That or change South Sweden to what it's called in Swedish. (I assume Norrland is Swedish for North Sweden)
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg3

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:50 pm

No, Norrland is the name of the region. Though I suppose I could change it to Northland to be consistent with the language.
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg3

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:03 pm

Did you apply for the supersize stamp?

I'm really liking this map, but one suggestion I have is how about splitting up the Philippines into two regions, Luzon and Mindanao?
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg3

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:18 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I never said anything of the sort. I have respect for you with regard to your mapmaking knowledge and such, but some of that is weakened when you act less than respectful to others inside and outside of this forum.


Yeah, just look at the posts in this thread for example. I'm answering respectfully to all questions and suggestions, and then out of the blue I get accused of being an asshole and annoying and shit like that.

If answering feedback honestly according to the best of my ability isn't what I'm supposed to be doing, I never got the memo.

ANYWAY, Austria connecting to Switzerland is doable. I'm not sure why I left that piece out, the reason is probably complicated... Germany's eastern border is perfectly accurate within the scale of the map though. And, the territory bonus is capped to 10 to make the map more bonus-oriented.

I still don't know why you want a connection between UAE and Iran? I don't see the reason...

Industrial Helix wrote:Did you apply for the supersize stamp?


Got it already.

Industrial Helix wrote:I'm really liking this map, but one suggestion I have is how about splitting up the Philippines into two regions, Luzon and Mindanao?


Is there a gameplay reason for doing so?
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Re: Eurasia [7.12.11] pg3

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:21 pm

As for the Philippines.. for me at least it feels like it could be its own bonus region, given its significance in the region and making it two sections would allow for that to happen. And generally I like little bonuses cause they're nice starting areas which will counter the easy bonuses of those three-part euro regions on the other side of the map.

I'ma sticky this now.
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