Eurasia Map [Old thread]

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Re: Eurasia [8.12.11] pg4

Postby natty dread on Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:56 am

As for Sulawesi, it's considered to be a part of Asia by most definitions of Asia. It belongs to the group of Maritime Southeast Asia, also known as Indonesian Archipelago, or East Indies. This group is included in the definition of Asia. Therefore I don't see any problem including Sulawesi on the map.

Ireland and Iceland are totally different countries, so the comparison is invalid. Sumatra and Java are both part of Indonesia.

There have been so many people complaining (at least two) that they cannot see the Java island on the map, that a compromise was made to include it nominally to Sumatra. However, if you can think of a better name for the region that is representative of the western islands of Indonesia, I can change it to that.

(West Indonesia?)
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Re: Eurasia [8.12.11] pg4

Postby Geger on Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:06 am

I can accept "west Indonesia" :)
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Re: Eurasia [8.12.11] pg4

Postby natty dread on Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:26 am

And So It Was Done.

(also added Shaanxi, but decided against Andaman - it's too small and it'd be hard to tell which bonus it belongs to, especially for colour blind)

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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby perchorin on Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:50 am

This is looking absolutely fantastic!
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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:59 am

Glad to hear it.
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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby The Bison King on Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:54 am

oh dude... I've been on vacation and this is the first time I've looked back into the foundry since I got back. Then I see this. Then I say, Nice!



My only suggestion at this point would be to split Beijing into 2 territories. Beijing and Nei Mongol/near Mongolia. Maybe give Nei Mongol to the west China bonus and change their names to Inner China and Outer China.
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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:25 am

The Bison King wrote:oh dude... I've been on vacation and this is the first time I've looked back into the foundry since I got back. Then I see this. Then I say, Nice!


Thanks! It's so nice to hear so much good feedback for this map.

My only suggestion at this point would be to split Beijing into 2 territories. Beijing and Nei Mongol/near Mongolia. Maybe give Nei Mongol to the west China bonus and change their names to Inner China and Outer China.


I like the idea, except that the current border between West/East Chinas follows the official divisions:

Image

So on that point of view it'd make more sense to keep the territory on the East side. (Plus it's a much larger pain to change the bonus divisions than to change the territory borders, but that of course has nothing to do with my opinion... )

On the other hand, from a gameplay perspective it'd make more sense to add it to the west, to keep the East a more feasible bonus... and I just said all this fancy stuff about how gameplay comes first, didn't I...

So I'm a bit stumped. You know, considering the gameplay again, I'd much rather add a territory to West India, maybe split Central India or Madras... from a pure gameplay perspective, that's the one area that could use an additional territory, I think... I'm not saying adding one in China is a totally bad idea, I could live with that, but India would be more preferable, you know?

And since we're on the subject of China, I wonder if there'd be a better name for the superbonus - seeing as how it includes Mongolia and all. :-k
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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:33 am

In regards to renaming the superbonus of China, I know that 'East Asia' has traditionally been Mongolia, China (and Taiwan), Japan, and Korea. Since you have 'Far East' being Korea and Japan, you could still make the superbonus 'East Asia' I think.

Doing this would also probably allow you to put Far East into a superbonus, instead of awkwardly standing alone.


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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:56 am

AndyDufresne wrote:In regards to renaming the superbonus of China, I know that 'East Asia' has traditionally been Mongolia, China (and Taiwan), Japan, and Korea. Since you have 'Far East' being Korea and Japan, you could still make the superbonus 'East Asia' I think.

Doing this would also probably allow you to put Far East into a superbonus, instead of awkwardly standing alone.


Well, it would be nice... but isn't there any alternative name to "East Asia"? I already have several bonus & superbonus names with cardinal directions in them, and I kinda wouldn't like to overdo it, you know?

Then there's one other consideration... and maybe I'm being a bit silly here, but... aesthetically, I kind of like having that yellow Far East there, the colour looks really good there, providing a good contrast to the purple hues of China... if I were to merge it in the same superbonus I'd have to make it follow the colour scheme of China.
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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:59 am

natty_dread wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:In regards to renaming the superbonus of China, I know that 'East Asia' has traditionally been Mongolia, China (and Taiwan), Japan, and Korea. Since you have 'Far East' being Korea and Japan, you could still make the superbonus 'East Asia' I think.

Doing this would also probably allow you to put Far East into a superbonus, instead of awkwardly standing alone.


Well, it would be nice... but isn't there any alternative name to "East Asia"? I already have several bonus & superbonus names with cardinal directions in them, and I kinda wouldn't like to overdo it, you know?

Then there's one other consideration... and maybe I'm being a bit silly here, but... aesthetically, I kind of like having that yellow Far East there, the colour looks really good there, providing a good contrast to the purple hues of China... if I were to merge it in the same superbonus I'd have to make it follow the colour scheme of China.


Yeah, I like the color scheme too.

East Asia is a pretty traditional and standard name. There might be a historical name that could fit, like Cathay or something, but I don't think that would be very accurate either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Locat ... egions.png


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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:33 pm

Hm, I'll have to think about this.

like this :-k
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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:48 pm

natty_dread wrote:On the other hand, from a gameplay perspective it'd make more sense to add it to the west, to keep the East a more feasible bonus... and I just said all this fancy stuff about how gameplay comes first, didn't I...

"They're more like guidelines, anyway..." ;)

I think on the other things that have been brought up.

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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:22 am

Ok, after considering this from all possible points of view, I've come to the conclusion that Andy's idea of annexing Far East to the China group is the best course of action here.

There's already 2 smaller superboni in the eastern part, S.E. Asia and India, so making the China/East Asia one slightly larger isn't that bad from a gameplay perspective.

The colour scheme has to be changed, but that's just realities of life :(
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Re: Eurasia [9.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:41 am

Said and done!

Click image to enlarge.
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The bonus values in the legend are just placeholders, btw. They can all be changed later...
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:02 am

I like the change :) As far as aesthetics are concerned, you could try giving Southeast Asia the yellow hues, since Russia's already brown anyway.

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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:06 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:I like the change :) As far as aesthetics are concerned, you could try giving Southeast Asia the yellow hues, since Russia's already brown anyway.

-Sully


Nah, the yellow only worked due to it's scarcity and specific location. Making the whole S.E. Asia yellow would just look garish.

And S.E. Asia is a different brown. And when you think of it, brown is just a yellow with decreased saturation...
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:14 am

natty_dread wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:I like the change :) As far as aesthetics are concerned, you could try giving Southeast Asia the yellow hues, since Russia's already brown anyway.

-Sully


Nah, the yellow only worked due to it's scarcity and specific location. Making the whole S.E. Asia yellow would just look garish.

And S.E. Asia is a different brown. And when you think of it, brown is just a yellow with decreased saturation...

Lol, this is why I stick to gameplay most of time :P

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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:26 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:I like the change :) As far as aesthetics are concerned, you could try giving Southeast Asia the yellow hues, since Russia's already brown anyway.

-Sully


Nah, the yellow only worked due to it's scarcity and specific location. Making the whole S.E. Asia yellow would just look garish.

And S.E. Asia is a different brown. And when you think of it, brown is just a yellow with decreased saturation...

Lol, this is why I stick to gameplay most of time :P

-Sully


Nah, your graphics suggestions are still welcome. It's just that I'm pretty particular when it comes to colours. I like to think I have a pretty good eye for them...

To give you the short of it, different colours contrast each other differently. You can have contrast in saturation or brightness, or you can have contrasting hues... The opposite hues, those with inverted RGB values wrt. each other, have the highest contrasts, and from those, the ones with highest luminance differential have the highest contrast... For example, blue <-> yellow has a very high contrast.

So the yellow wouldn't work in S.E, it would be next to India and they wouldn't be having enough contrast. Then I'd have to change india, and it wouldn't be appropriate for being next to Near East anymore, etc... and then the whole house of cards would come crashing down...
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:32 am

I see... (sort of)

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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby MrBenn on Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:53 am

This looks just the same as many other natty maps. Why don't you push the boat out and try and step it up a level?
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:01 am

MrBenn wrote:This looks just the same as many other natty maps. Why don't you push the boat out and try and step it up a level?


Yeah yeah, I've heard it before. :roll:

I'm really sorry you feel that way, I guess I just can't please everyone.
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:07 am

Funny thing though, I still don't know what exactly that dreaded "natty style" is that I should avoid so much. (seewhatididthere)

Yeah maybe there's some superficially common elements in some of my maps. Maybe all graphical artists develop a certain recognizable style over time, certain details in their work that are unique to them. But it's a bit rich to imply that all my maps are just repeating the same theme over and over. I've done lots of unique things. Antarctica is way different from 3 Kingdoms of Korea, Yugoslavia is unlike anything else I've done, etc.

Lastly, MrBenn, you said the same thing about my London map. I made a total graphical revamp there, and I still haven't heard a single thing from you since...
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby The Bison King on Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:49 am

I still don't know what exactly that dreaded "natty style"

I think he means to imply that it looks good. No agree, with you Natty I'm sick of this tired notion that every map an artist makes needs to be a complete stylistic departure from their other works. I think people should do what they're good at and most comfortable with. Not saying that there isn't any merit to working outside of your comfort zone, but if we're talking coming up with the best possible final product I think that artist will do best to stick to their own unique style that they have worked so hard to develop.

It's like going up to Super Man and saying, "yeah laser eyes, seen it, how bout you stop Lex Luthor by talking to fish this time"

P.S. for the record it was not my intention to imply that Natty Dread is Super Man
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby The Bison King on Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:51 am

Any way I want to get back on topic. I think you mentioned splitting Madras and making a 3rd Indian sub bonus earlier? If this was something that was discussed I think that it is a great idea.
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Re: Eurasia [10.12.11] pg5

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:13 pm

The Bison King wrote:Any way I want to get back on topic. I think you mentioned splitting Madras and making a 3rd Indian sub bonus earlier? If this was something that was discussed I think that it is a great idea.


No, not splitting the bonus, simply adding a territory to India. There's enough small bonuses on the map, if you look at the chart in the first post, with bonuses grouped by territory count, you'll see the small & large bonuses are now pretty evenly spread accross the map.

I could split a part of Central India and append it to East India. That way there'd be one less 3-territory bonus, and the 3-territory bonuses would be divided 2 on the west, 2 on the east, and there'd be one more 4-territory bonus - although there are quite a lot of them already... maybe I could then in turn add another territory to some 4-territory bonus? This'd make it a smoother curve...

Currently the curve looks like this:
Code: Select all
number of bonuses

|
6   *
5 * *
4 * * * *
3 * * * *
2 * * * *   *
1 * * * * * * * *
. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ----> size


The Bison King wrote:No agree, with you Natty I'm sick of this tired notion that every map an artist makes needs to be a complete stylistic departure from their other works. I think people should do what they're good at and most comfortable with. Not saying that there isn't any merit to working outside of your comfort zone, but if we're talking coming up with the best possible final product I think that artist will do best to stick to their own unique style that they have worked so hard to develop.


I kinda agree, in that I don't think uniqueness as such is the primary criteria for creating good works. I see it from a more utilitarian view: do what works for the particular project, if it happens to be different from the earlier ones, good, if not, that's good too. That said, I think there's plenty of variation in my works, I've experimented with different styles a lot, and of course I will keep experimenting - stagnation is never good. But that doesn't mean I put the experimentation as a first priority - my first priority is to make maps that look good and are fun to play.
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