Sweden [13 Feb 2012] V6 p.1&3 Feedback wanted

[natty dread]

I like the reality of territories AND cities.

Reality, reality... Remember IH what happened with Korea when we tried to do everything with reality in mind?

We ended up with a map that, at first, was totally unbalanced, because you were trying to make the gameplay reflect reality, and hard to read and unclear, because I tried to make the graphics realistically faded and old-looking.

The map ended up fine after some heavy tweaking in beta, but I think that should be a good lesson for all further map projects, historical or otherwise... it's fine to pursue realism, but gameplay balance and readability should always be first priority, and realism cannot be more important than those. Any time you have to choose between those things, realism needs to lose.


Anyway, back on this map... the bonuses are still way too large for a map this size. The only feasible bonus area is Northern Norrland, the others, well, look at the regions and borders...

S. Norrland: 7 regions, 5 borders
Swealand: 9 regions, 7 borders
Götaland: 14 regions, 5 borders

Basically, every game played on the map would go like this: there's a scramble for North Norrland, whoever has the best drop and dice will get it, and then that player will win because the other bonuses are way too hard.

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.

[Oneyed]

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.

agreed. when you split Norrland to two bonuses (out of reality), you could also Gotaland. Svealand could be one big bonus in the middle. any impassable would helps, there are too much borders now, I think.

Oneyed

[Roberth]

Anyway, back on this map... the bonuses are still way too large for a map this size. The only feasible bonus area is Northern Norrland, the others, well, look at the regions and borders...

S. Norrland: 7 regions, 5 borders
Swealand: 9 regions, 7 borders
Götaland: 14 regions, 5 borders

Basically, every game played on the map would go like this: there's a scramble for North Norrland, whoever has the best drop and dice will get it, and then that player will win because the other bonuses are way too hard.

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.

Yea, I agree that Götaland can be to big.

But the zones are smaller than you describe them to be. As the legend say "Airports and cities are not a part of the above zones". So:

N. Norrland has 4 regions
S. Norrland has 5 regions
Svealand has 6 regions
Götaland has 10 regions

So I think all zones, except Götaland, is ok in size.
But you're right in that there are to many boarders. That could be changed, as Oneyed sad, by adding impassables. I'll put that on my to do list.

[natty dread]

Ok then, split Götaland in two, 4 region and 6 region bonuses. Then add some impassables.

But before you do that, I have to tell you, you're going to need to reorganize your image. With the current layout, the small version of the map will be too cluttered - the large is already somewhat cluttered, with some borders being hard to see.

So here's what to do: rotate the country about 20 degrees clockwise (to the right), then zoom in to it so that the edges of the country match the edges of the image. This way you'll have more space for things. It will mean you'll have to redraw your map, but it's better to do it now rather than when you've spend weeks working on your current image...

[Flapcake]

I feel like Red Zone should be worth 3 armies, considering you gotta defend at three points

I agree

looking better and better

[Roberth]

Ok then, split Götaland in two, 4 region and 6 region bonuses. Then add some impassables.

Would spliting Götaland into two reagions make tha south of the map more balansed? Maybe so there will be a struggle for N. Norrland and one for West Götaland and that those two players might the be the stronges moving forward?

So here's what to do: rotate the country about 20 degrees clockwise (to the right), then zoom in to it so that the edges of the country match the edges of the image. This way you'll have more space for things. It will mean you'll have to redraw your map, but it's better to do it now rather than when you've spend weeks working on your current image...

I don't want to rotate the map. I think that by doing so it will change the feeling of the map being of sweden. Because this way is the way it's being shown on all maps. If it is to cluttered, then I'll have to find another way to solve that.

I feel like Red Zone should be worth 3 armies, considering you gotta defend at three points

I agree

looking better and better

Thank you! Yea, that might be a good idea.

[natty dread]

I don't want to rotate the map. I think that by doing so it will change the feeling of the map being of sweden. Because this way is the way it's being shown on all maps.

That's simply untrue. Maps can have different projections, and many maps are slightly rotated to fit the area in question better to the available space.

The shape of the country you're trying to depict is very awkward for a CC map, as it makes for a lot of scrolling. Furthermore, since your large version is already this cluttered, and the army numbers will be the same size on the small as they are on the large, you need to take in account that the small version will inevitably be even more cluttered. Some cluttered areas on a map are fine, but not when the whole map is unclear because of it and players have a hard time seeing the connections.

I don't really see any other options for rotating the map, unless you find some map projection that reduces the clutter, or find a way to distort the shape of it to the same effect.

[Roberth]

Version 3:
• Removed boarder between Värmland and Västergötaland
• Changed N. Norrland to +3
• Changed boarder between Värmland, Västmanland and Uppland
• Added mountains/impassables

Click image to enlarge.

Questions:
• Should I ad a impassable between Södermanland and Östergötland?
• Should I ad a impassable between Gästrikland and Uppland?

[natty dread]

Ok, here's your current map at 80% size, with some army numbers on:

Click image to enlarge.

As you can see, it's very unclear and cluttered at some places. Army numbers don't fit in all places. This is the problem you're going to need to solve. And it's better to do it now rather than when you've spent a lot of time working on your current map image.

[Roberth]

That's simply untrue. Maps can have different projections, and many maps are slightly rotated to fit the area in question better to the available space.

The shape of the country you're trying to depict is very awkward for a CC map, as it makes for a lot of scrolling. Furthermore, since your large version is already this cluttered, and the army numbers will be the same size on the small as they are on the large, you need to take in account that the small version will inevitably be even more cluttered. Some cluttered areas on a map are fine, but not when the whole map is unclear because of it and players have a hard time seeing the connections.

I don't really see any other options for rotating the map, unless you find some map projection that reduces the clutter, or find a way to distort the shape of it to the same effect.

Ok, yea, not all maps are at the same rotation. But most of them picture the countries in the same rotation. And I for the most want to keep this rotation of the map. If there's no other solution, then let's rotate the map.

[Gillipig]

Fin karta men varför ser det ut som at Göteborg ligger i Bohuslän?

[natty dread]

Fin karta men varför ser det ut som at Göteborg ligger i Bohuslän?

Speak english please. This is not a language forum.

[Roberth]

Fin karta men varför ser det ut som at Göteborg ligger i Bohuslän?

Tack! Jo, jag vet att Gbg inte ligger i Bohuslän IRL. Men ville inte ha både en flygplats och en stad i samma region. Så därför fick Landvetter vara i Västergötland och Göteborg i Bohuslän.

Vad säger du om kartan annars, som invånare?

And a translation for Mr. Natty_dread.
Gillipig sad:
Nice map but why does it looks like Göteborg is in Bohuslän?

Roberts sad:
Thank you! Yes, I know that Göteborg isn't in Bohuslän IRL. But I didn't want a airport and a city in the same region. So therefor Landvetter Airport got to stay in Västergötland and Göteborg in Bohuslän.

[natty dread]

And a translation for Mr. Natty_dread.

It's not just for me but other people are going to want to know what is being said so they can participate in the discussion and give their opinion if they disagree (or even if they agree).

Therefore it is preferable that all feedback is given in english, even if the commenter & mapmaker are from the same country.

As for this situation -

Thank you! Yes, I know that Göteborg isn't in Bohuslän IRL. But I didn't want a airport and a city in the same region. So therefor Landvetter Airport got to stay in Västergötland and Göteborg in Bohuslän.

Maybe you could change it to some other city, one that actually is in Bohuslän?

[Roberth]

Yes, of course your right Natty. Translation is for every one. But you pointed it out so I put your name on the answer post.

Well the thing is that Göteborg is the second largest city in Sweden. Also there is no city close to as big as Göteborg in Bohuslän. The biggest one in Bohuslän is Uddevalla (which by the way is the city I live in) and it got a population of about 50 000 while Göteborg has a population of 500 000. Further more Göteborg is just on the boarder of Bohuslän and Västergötland, the region is even sometimes called Göteborg and Bohuslän. The two are closely linked together.

So therefore, even on your premise Natty that gameplay goes before reality, I say that the city of Göteborg should be placed in Bohuslän so that a city and an airport don't end up in the same region and that the map will project the some of the big cities in Sweden.

[natty dread]

Ok, that seems reasonable.

There's still the issue of the map being too cluttered, and maybe splitting one more bonus area. After those are solved, I don't think there will be much issues with this map...

[Roberth]

Version 4:
• Added impassables to the legend
• Split Götaland into 2 zones, Götaland West and Götaland East
• Added 2 new cities, so each zone has two cities in it

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

Roberth...this is my second look at this map. Some suggestions if i may...
1. It is a little flat at present. Perhaps you could give the land some texture/bevel or similar to make it seem raised above the sea.
2. The bottom of the map (while i realise is probably more populated than the north) seems very cluttered. Stockholm is not quite clear as to where it is, not Arlanda Airport, and hence it is difficult to tell which territory borders which.
3. I think you could half or 3/4 the size of the city icon length wise or perhaps place it in front of the city name. That might help de-clutter the map a bit also
4. Mountains are always an issue...i don't know Sweden very much, but i guess there are some really high snow-capped ones as well as some alpine pastures. Perhaps give some contrast there and more space between them.
5. the title looks good as does the mini-map, although i would probably throw Southern Norrland +4 to the other side of the mini map - its eye real estate.
6. Gameplay wise - my main concern would be that Angermanland is a bottle-neck to both sides of it.
Good work though so far.

[natty dread]

The bonuses seem more reasonable now, but there's still the problem of the map being too cluttered.

I think you need to address this before anything else - I think rotating the map and then zooming in somewhat is the best possible option here.

[isaiah40]

The bonuses seem more reasonable now, but there's still the problem of the map being too cluttered.

I think you need to address this before anything else - I think rotating the map and then zooming in somewhat is the best possible option here.

I think one way to make it less cluttered is to remove the circles. I believe this will clear it up a bit.

[Roberth]

Roberth...this is my second look at this map. Some suggestions if i may...
1. It is a little flat at present. Perhaps you could give the land some texture/bevel or similar to make it seem raised above the sea.
2. The bottom of the map (while i realise is probably more populated than the north) seems very cluttered. Stockholm is not quite clear as to where it is, not Arlanda Airport, and hence it is difficult to tell which territory borders which.
3. I think you could half or 3/4 the size of the city icon length wise or perhaps place it in front of the city name. That might help de-clutter the map a bit also
4. Mountains are always an issue...i don't know Sweden very much, but i guess there are some really high snow-capped ones as well as some alpine pastures. Perhaps give some contrast there and more space between them.
5. the title looks good as does the mini-map, although i would probably throw Southern Norrland +4 to the other side of the mini map - its eye real estate.
6. Gameplay wise - my main concern would be that Angermanland is a bottle-neck to both sides of it.
Good work though so far.

Thank you for your comments!
I'll test adding textures to the land, but that might just make the map more cluttered.
Yes, the south is way more populated. I'll make the city signs smaller, about the same size as the airport sign.
I didn't put much effort into the mountains, just because I wanted to get impassables into the map and find their best position.
Do you suggest that I removed the mountains between Lappland and Jämtland in order for Ångermanland not to become a bottle-neck?

The bonuses seem more reasonable now, but there's still the problem of the map being too cluttered.

I think you need to address this before anything else - I think rotating the map and then zooming in somewhat is the best possible option here.

I'll try my best to make it less cluttered on this update. I agree and want the map to be clean looking.

I think one way to make it less cluttered is to remove the circles. I believe this will clear it up a bit.

That's a very good idea!! I'll try that.

[Roberth]

Version 5:
• Made the city icons smaller
• Clarified the "arrow" on the city icons that needed it
• Move "Southern Norrland" to the other side of the mini map
• Remove the circles and moved some names a little
• Moved the legend up a bit
Tested adding textures on the land, but that just made the map look more cluttered.

Click image to enlarge.

[Gillipig]

Just looking at those numbers gave me a small epileptic shock lol. Can't really find anything to add otherwise when it comes to graphics. Looks good ! Northern Norrland looks like a potential bottleneck. I would suggest removing the mountain between Lappland and Jämtland.

[Roberth]

Yea, I agree that those mountains should be taken away.

Ok, do you think it looks better with circles?

[ViperOverLord]

Did you personally do the art work for the coat of arms or is that a Sweden standard?