Sweden [13 Feb 2012] V6 p.1&3 Feedback wanted

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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:21 am

Industrial Helix wrote:I like the reality of territories AND cities.


Reality, reality... Remember IH what happened with Korea when we tried to do everything with reality in mind?

We ended up with a map that, at first, was totally unbalanced, because you were trying to make the gameplay reflect reality, and hard to read and unclear, because I tried to make the graphics realistically faded and old-looking.

The map ended up fine after some heavy tweaking in beta, but I think that should be a good lesson for all further map projects, historical or otherwise... it's fine to pursue realism, but gameplay balance and readability should always be first priority, and realism cannot be more important than those. Any time you have to choose between those things, realism needs to lose.


Anyway, back on this map... the bonuses are still way too large for a map this size. The only feasible bonus area is Northern Norrland, the others, well, look at the regions and borders...

S. Norrland: 7 regions, 5 borders
Swealand: 9 regions, 7 borders
Götaland: 14 regions, 5 borders

Basically, every game played on the map would go like this: there's a scramble for North Norrland, whoever has the best drop and dice will get it, and then that player will win because the other bonuses are way too hard.

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby Oneyed on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:36 am

natty_dread wrote:
Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.


agreed. when you split Norrland to two bonuses (out of reality), you could also Gotaland. Svealand could be one big bonus in the middle. any impassable would helps, there are too much borders now, I think.

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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby Roberth on Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:00 am

natty_dread wrote:Anyway, back on this map... the bonuses are still way too large for a map this size. The only feasible bonus area is Northern Norrland, the others, well, look at the regions and borders...

S. Norrland: 7 regions, 5 borders
Swealand: 9 regions, 7 borders
Götaland: 14 regions, 5 borders

Basically, every game played on the map would go like this: there's a scramble for North Norrland, whoever has the best drop and dice will get it, and then that player will win because the other bonuses are way too hard.

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.


Yea, I agree that Götaland can be to big.

But the zones are smaller than you describe them to be. As the legend say "Airports and cities are not a part of the above zones". So:

N. Norrland has 4 regions
S. Norrland has 5 regions
Svealand has 6 regions
Götaland has 10 regions

So I think all zones, except Götaland, is ok in size.
But you're right in that there are to many boarders. That could be changed, as Oneyed sad, by adding impassables. I'll put that on my to do list.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby natty dread on Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:12 am

Ok then, split Götaland in two, 4 region and 6 region bonuses. Then add some impassables.

But before you do that, I have to tell you, you're going to need to reorganize your image. With the current layout, the small version of the map will be too cluttered - the large is already somewhat cluttered, with some borders being hard to see.

So here's what to do: rotate the country about 20 degrees clockwise (to the right), then zoom in to it so that the edges of the country match the edges of the image. This way you'll have more space for things. It will mean you'll have to redraw your map, but it's better to do it now rather than when you've spend weeks working on your current image...
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby Flapcake on Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:17 am

Industrial Helix wrote:


I feel like Red Zone should be worth 3 armies, considering you gotta defend at three points


I agree

looking better and better ;)
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby Roberth on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:33 am

natty_dread wrote:Ok then, split Götaland in two, 4 region and 6 region bonuses. Then add some impassables.


Would spliting Götaland into two reagions make tha south of the map more balansed? Maybe so there will be a struggle for N. Norrland and one for West Götaland and that those two players might the be the stronges moving forward?

natty_dread wrote:So here's what to do: rotate the country about 20 degrees clockwise (to the right), then zoom in to it so that the edges of the country match the edges of the image. This way you'll have more space for things. It will mean you'll have to redraw your map, but it's better to do it now rather than when you've spend weeks working on your current image...


I don't want to rotate the map. I think that by doing so it will change the feeling of the map being of sweden. Because this way is the way it's being shown on all maps. If it is to cluttered, then I'll have to find another way to solve that.

Flapcake wrote:
Industrial Helix wrote:I feel like Red Zone should be worth 3 armies, considering you gotta defend at three points
I agree

looking better and better ;)


Thank you! Yea, that might be a good idea.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:44 am

Roberth wrote:I don't want to rotate the map. I think that by doing so it will change the feeling of the map being of sweden. Because this way is the way it's being shown on all maps.


That's simply untrue. Maps can have different projections, and many maps are slightly rotated to fit the area in question better to the available space.

The shape of the country you're trying to depict is very awkward for a CC map, as it makes for a lot of scrolling. Furthermore, since your large version is already this cluttered, and the army numbers will be the same size on the small as they are on the large, you need to take in account that the small version will inevitably be even more cluttered. Some cluttered areas on a map are fine, but not when the whole map is unclear because of it and players have a hard time seeing the connections.

I don't really see any other options for rotating the map, unless you find some map projection that reduces the clutter, or find a way to distort the shape of it to the same effect.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby Roberth on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:28 pm

Version 3:
• Removed boarder between Värmland and Västergötaland
• Changed N. Norrland to +3
• Changed boarder between Värmland, Västmanland and Uppland
• Added mountains/impassables

Click image to enlarge.
image


Questions:
• Should I ad a impassable between Södermanland and Östergötland?
• Should I ad a impassable between Gästrikland and Uppland?
Last edited by Roberth on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V3 p.1&2 Feedback wanted

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:32 pm

Ok, here's your current map at 80% size, with some army numbers on:

Click image to enlarge.
image


As you can see, it's very unclear and cluttered at some places. Army numbers don't fit in all places. This is the problem you're going to need to solve. And it's better to do it now rather than when you've spent a lot of time working on your current map image.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V2 p.1&1 Feedback wanted

Postby Roberth on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:09 pm

natty_dread wrote:That's simply untrue. Maps can have different projections, and many maps are slightly rotated to fit the area in question better to the available space.

The shape of the country you're trying to depict is very awkward for a CC map, as it makes for a lot of scrolling. Furthermore, since your large version is already this cluttered, and the army numbers will be the same size on the small as they are on the large, you need to take in account that the small version will inevitably be even more cluttered. Some cluttered areas on a map are fine, but not when the whole map is unclear because of it and players have a hard time seeing the connections.

I don't really see any other options for rotating the map, unless you find some map projection that reduces the clutter, or find a way to distort the shape of it to the same effect.

Ok, yea, not all maps are at the same rotation. But most of them picture the countries in the same rotation. And I for the most want to keep this rotation of the map. If there's no other solution, then let's rotate the map.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V3 p.1&2 Feedback wanted

Postby Gillipig on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:47 am

Fin karta men varför ser det ut som at Göteborg ligger i Bohuslän?
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V3 p.1&2 Feedback wanted

Postby natty dread on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:52 am

Gillipig wrote:Fin karta men varför ser det ut som at Göteborg ligger i Bohuslän?


Speak english please. This is not a language forum.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V3 p.1&2 Feedback wanted

Postby Roberth on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:14 pm

Gillipig wrote:Fin karta men varför ser det ut som at Göteborg ligger i Bohuslän?


Tack! Jo, jag vet att Gbg inte ligger i Bohuslän IRL. Men ville inte ha både en flygplats och en stad i samma region. Så därför fick Landvetter vara i Västergötland och Göteborg i Bohuslän.

Vad säger du om kartan annars, som invånare?

And a translation for Mr. Natty_dread.
Gillipig sad:
Nice map but why does it looks like Göteborg is in Bohuslän?

Roberts sad:
Thank you! Yes, I know that Göteborg isn't in Bohuslän IRL. But I didn't want a airport and a city in the same region. So therefor Landvetter Airport got to stay in Västergötland and Göteborg in Bohuslän.
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V3 p.1&2 Feedback wanted

Postby natty dread on Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:25 pm

Roberth wrote:And a translation for Mr. Natty_dread.


It's not just for me but other people are going to want to know what is being said so they can participate in the discussion and give their opinion if they disagree (or even if they agree).

Therefore it is preferable that all feedback is given in english, even if the commenter & mapmaker are from the same country.

As for this situation -

Roberth wrote:Thank you! Yes, I know that Göteborg isn't in Bohuslän IRL. But I didn't want a airport and a city in the same region. So therefor Landvetter Airport got to stay in Västergötland and Göteborg in Bohuslän.


Maybe you could change it to some other city, one that actually is in Bohuslän?
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Re: Sweden [20 Jan 2012] V3 p.1&2 Feedback wanted

Postby Roberth on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:56 pm

Yes, of course your right Natty. Translation is for every one. But you pointed it out so I put your name on the answer post. :)

Well the thing is that Göteborg is the second largest city in Sweden. Also there is no city close to as big as Göteborg in Bohuslän. The biggest one in Bohuslän is Uddevalla (which by the way is the city I live in) and it got a population of about 50 000 while Göteborg has a population of 500 000. Further more Göteborg is just on the boarder of Bohuslän and Västergötland, the region is even sometimes called Göteborg and Bohuslän. The two are closely linked together.

So therefore, even on your premise Natty that gameplay goes before reality, I say that the city of Göteborg should be placed in Bohuslän so that a city and an airport don't end up in the same region and that the map will project the some of the big cities in Sweden.
Last edited by Roberth on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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