Forum

by **natty dread** on Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:26 am

Do you want me to tell you things that make you happy, or do you want me to be honest?

Sorry, but it's just how it is. The way your map is currently, I don't see much strategy in it - the only bonus is the region bonus, 1 for 3 regions, and that's what you get on most maps anyway. So... what's the catch here?

by **koontz1973** on Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:54 am

natty_dread wrote:Do you want me to tell you things that make you happy, or do you want me to be honest?

This (below) tells me nothing. There is such a thing as commenting on a subject but laying out a few ideas as well. It is still early days in the map and trying to do something different again but to say what you did is pointless. If you want to comment on the map, then do so, but make your comment mean something or else it is pointless. Nesio who posted before you is not a map maker and new to coming to the foundry so his comment is justified and it still makes a point. He wants to see something different instead of the normal city maps.

natty_dread wrote:Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...

New image and GP style. Now before any of you jump down my throat, I know the 4 chosen are captured/dead, but I did not want to upset anyone with using real names of escaped criminals. I PMed nobodies with this image a couple of days ago to see if I had crossed the line but not heard anything. So you can all judge.

Click image to enlarge.

by **natty dread** on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:24 am

koontz1973 wrote:This (below) tells me nothing.

I'm sorry, but it's entirely legitimate to leave a comment that only points out a flaw in the map - not every comment has to be a deep analysis of the map structure.

In this case, your bonus structure was indeed needing attention - in fact you didn't really have a real bonus structure. So I pointed this out. However, the map is still early in development, and it is indeed your map, so I didn't - and don't - want to tell you what kind of map you should make, or what kind of gameplay you should design - that's up to you. I have enough work coming up with my own gameplay ideas, lol.

As for your current gameplay, it has the same problem TBK:s Heartland map had - you have a bonus for each War Criminal, and then you have a +1 for 3 in an area bonus, so how do you intend the map to start? If you start with a random drop, it leads to uneven drops, some people dropping higher initial bonuses than others, thanks to the +1/3 in an area bonus.

Also, for future reference: you should avoid referring to bonus areas as "regions", since that's what territories are called in the game, so it can easily lead to confusion.

by **koontz1973** on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:43 am

In the first post GP notes, I state that each player will drop only 2 territs. All other territs apart from the WC start as one neutral. All territs will hen be programmed as starting positions with a max of 2 given out. so it is like a conquest style map without the set starting positions. The divisions of the bonus areas can be made smaller/larger/more/less.

As for the comment, it is OK not to go into detail but as you keep saying, you are an experienced map maker and therefore ideas should come more naturally to you. To post as little as you did without a comment on what you would of liked to see is a wasted post. It is that I do not mind the comments, but the little you give gets annoying. If you had said something like...

Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...take a look at Antarctica again.

This alone is little, but it gives a general idea of what you, as a map maker and player might like to see.

by **natty dread** on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:57 am

koontz1973 wrote:as you keep saying, you are an experienced map maker

I don't really remember when I had called myself an "experienced mapmaker", but ok.

koontz1973 wrote:To post as little as you did without a comment on what you would of liked to see is a wasted post.

Well, that's unfortunate you feel that way. The way I see it, feedback is only wasted when you don't take anything from it.

koontz1973 wrote:In the first post GP notes, I state that each player will drop only 2 territs. All other territs apart from the WC start as one neutral. All territs will hen be programmed as starting positions with a max of 2 given out. so it is like a conquest style map without the set starting positions. The divisions of the bonus areas can be made smaller/larger/more/less.

But this is also problematic. If you have 2 random locations for each player, it will also create unbalanced drops - what if player 1 and player 2 drop right next to each other, and player 1 goes first - he'll have a chance to eliminate player 2 right away. Or, player 1 starts in one corner of the map, and players 2-4 start on the other side, player 1 now has one corner of the map to hisself while others have to battle each other for land.

by **koontz1973** on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:28 am

If the idea of a 2 territ random drop does not work, and I take your point on it about the larger games, then with 46 territs as normal play, a combination of 23 sets of 2 positions can be found with one being given out. That way, if any two that are given in a 1v1 game, only one territ can be adjacent, and this itself would only occur in every 1 in 22 games. A decent spacing can be done for each two. But if two does not work (and I started with one but the drops allowed for your first round KO) a third territ can be added. If we went with the third territ, then a set of 15 positions of 3 can be worked out easily. This would introduce the extra neutral onto the board.

by **koontz1973** on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:14 am

New direction of a sorts.
This will need a lot of balancing so help in that is greatly needed.

Click image to enlarge.

by **natty dread** on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:46 am

Personally, I don't think the nazi capture thing really works for this map. It seems to pasted-on, like it was added as an afterthought. There's nothing else on the map that really connects the nazi theme to it.

If you really want to pursue it, I think you should make the map fully about the capture of those nazis. Research the history, find out how it all went down and then find a way to tell the story in map form. Or, you can just make this map about Buenos Aires and find something more suitable that represents Buenos Aires.

by **koontz1973** on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:17 am

Buenos Aires is well know for German war criminals (Josef Mengele, Adolf Eichmann) and there capture. I did not put these on as they are real cases and thought that bringing in real life cases might be to close to reality for CC. This is the reason for the well known names and ones that either died or where captured. As for a last minute tack on, it was my original idea but again dismissed it for the above reason. After your comment about GP needing a revision, I thought about bringing it back in. It does need revision, I have never really liked this style of map to play on but I like to try new things. Germans stay, lets revise the map.

by **sannemanrobinson** on Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:29 pm

I like the idea. But without an historic background of these specific persons it seems a bit random. Maybe first names from Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele could be less direct and still have an historic relation.

Why are the starting positions marked with a church? I do not see any reason to make only the winning objective neutral.

by **koontz1973** on Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:31 pm

This was an idea I had at the start. Thought twice about it, removed it and then brought it back. Right now, I am redrawing the complete map from scratch with GP changes and a lot more. The historical aspect is going to be kept as BA is known as a destination for war criminals. Might be another week or two before I get an image up though.

by **cairnswk** on Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:56 pm

Could you perhaps include Peron and Evita...same era basically. This might assist to include de commescados (think that's how you spell it) and the labour unions - very prominate in Peron's days.
Just a suggestion.

by **koontz1973** on Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:29 pm

cairnswk wrote:Could you perhaps include Peron and Evita...same era basically. This might assist to include de commescados (think that's how you spell it) and the labour unions - very prominate in Peron's days.
Just a suggestion.

Never thought of it but now that you mention it, it sits nicely within the area. Will have a look at fitting them in.

by **Industrial Helix** on Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:27 pm

I didn't read completely through the thread, but it seems like you're considering a thematic change. Which I really hope is true because I'm sure Buenos Aires has more going for it than harboring various Nazis after WWII, plus I'm pretty sure Hitler never made it there as after the Cold War when the Soviet archives opened up, we now know that the Soviets knew where Hitler's body in Berlin was and in 1970 they burned and crushed it and dumped in the Elbe.

by **koontz1973** on Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:51 pm

IH, this is going to be just like Jakarta. One of those ideas that seem to be good, end up being bad and then a complete switch around to get it working again. It will take me a little time to work out the bugs but should have a new image this weekend/early next week by the latest.