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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [30/1] pg1 v5

Postby natty dread on Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:26 am

Do you want me to tell you things that make you happy, or do you want me to be honest?

Sorry, but it's just how it is. The way your map is currently, I don't see much strategy in it - the only bonus is the region bonus, 1 for 3 regions, and that's what you get on most maps anyway. So... what's the catch here?
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [30/1] pg1 v5

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:54 am

natty_dread wrote:Do you want me to tell you things that make you happy, or do you want me to be honest?

This (below) tells me nothing. There is such a thing as commenting on a subject but laying out a few ideas as well. It is still early days in the map and trying to do something different again but to say what you did is pointless. If you want to comment on the map, then do so, but make your comment mean something or else it is pointless. Nesio who posted before you is not a map maker and new to coming to the foundry so his comment is justified and it still makes a point. He wants to see something different instead of the normal city maps.
natty_dread wrote:Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...


New image and GP style. Now before any of you jump down my throat, I know the 4 chosen are captured/dead, but I did not want to upset anyone with using real names of escaped criminals. I PMed nobodies with this image a couple of days ago to see if I had crossed the line but not heard anything. So you can all judge.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [3/2] pg1/2 v5

Postby natty dread on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:24 am

koontz1973 wrote:This (below) tells me nothing.


I'm sorry, but it's entirely legitimate to leave a comment that only points out a flaw in the map - not every comment has to be a deep analysis of the map structure.

In this case, your bonus structure was indeed needing attention - in fact you didn't really have a real bonus structure. So I pointed this out. However, the map is still early in development, and it is indeed your map, so I didn't - and don't - want to tell you what kind of map you should make, or what kind of gameplay you should design - that's up to you. I have enough work coming up with my own gameplay ideas, lol.


As for your current gameplay, it has the same problem TBK:s Heartland map had - you have a bonus for each War Criminal, and then you have a +1 for 3 in an area bonus, so how do you intend the map to start? If you start with a random drop, it leads to uneven drops, some people dropping higher initial bonuses than others, thanks to the +1/3 in an area bonus.

Also, for future reference: you should avoid referring to bonus areas as "regions", since that's what territories are called in the game, so it can easily lead to confusion.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [3/2] pg1/2 v5

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:43 am

In the first post GP notes, I state that each player will drop only 2 territs. All other territs apart from the WC start as one neutral. All territs will hen be programmed as starting positions with a max of 2 given out. so it is like a conquest style map without the set starting positions. The divisions of the bonus areas can be made smaller/larger/more/less.

As for the comment, it is OK not to go into detail but as you keep saying, you are an experienced map maker and therefore ideas should come more naturally to you. To post as little as you did without a comment on what you would of liked to see is a wasted post. It is that I do not mind the comments, but the little you give gets annoying. If you had said something like...

Ok, I have to say, I think you're going to need a better bonus structure here...take a look at Antarctica again.

This alone is little, but it gives a general idea of what you, as a map maker and player might like to see.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [3/2] pg1/2 v5

Postby natty dread on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:57 am

koontz1973 wrote:as you keep saying, you are an experienced map maker


I don't really remember when I had called myself an "experienced mapmaker", but ok.

koontz1973 wrote:To post as little as you did without a comment on what you would of liked to see is a wasted post.


Well, that's unfortunate you feel that way. The way I see it, feedback is only wasted when you don't take anything from it.

koontz1973 wrote:In the first post GP notes, I state that each player will drop only 2 territs. All other territs apart from the WC start as one neutral. All territs will hen be programmed as starting positions with a max of 2 given out. so it is like a conquest style map without the set starting positions. The divisions of the bonus areas can be made smaller/larger/more/less.


But this is also problematic. If you have 2 random locations for each player, it will also create unbalanced drops - what if player 1 and player 2 drop right next to each other, and player 1 goes first - he'll have a chance to eliminate player 2 right away. Or, player 1 starts in one corner of the map, and players 2-4 start on the other side, player 1 now has one corner of the map to hisself while others have to battle each other for land.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [3/2] pg1/2 v5

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:28 am

If the idea of a 2 territ random drop does not work, and I take your point on it about the larger games, then with 46 territs as normal play, a combination of 23 sets of 2 positions can be found with one being given out. That way, if any two that are given in a 1v1 game, only one territ can be adjacent, and this itself would only occur in every 1 in 22 games. A decent spacing can be done for each two. But if two does not work (and I started with one but the drops allowed for your first round KO) a third territ can be added. If we went with the third territ, then a set of 15 positions of 3 can be worked out easily. This would introduce the extra neutral onto the board.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:14 am

New direction of a sorts.
This will need a lot of balancing so help in that is greatly needed.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:46 am

Personally, I don't think the nazi capture thing really works for this map. It seems to pasted-on, like it was added as an afterthought. There's nothing else on the map that really connects the nazi theme to it.

If you really want to pursue it, I think you should make the map fully about the capture of those nazis. Research the history, find out how it all went down and then find a way to tell the story in map form. Or, you can just make this map about Buenos Aires and find something more suitable that represents Buenos Aires.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:17 am

Buenos Aires is well know for German war criminals (Josef Mengele, Adolf Eichmann) and there capture. I did not put these on as they are real cases and thought that bringing in real life cases might be to close to reality for CC. This is the reason for the well known names and ones that either died or where captured. As for a last minute tack on, it was my original idea but again dismissed it for the above reason. After your comment about GP needing a revision, I thought about bringing it back in. It does need revision, I have never really liked this style of map to play on but I like to try new things. Germans stay, lets revise the map.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby sannemanrobinson on Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:29 pm

I like the idea. But without an historic background of these specific persons it seems a bit random. Maybe first names from Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele could be less direct and still have an historic relation.

Why are the starting positions marked with a church? I do not see any reason to make only the winning objective neutral.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:31 pm

This was an idea I had at the start. Thought twice about it, removed it and then brought it back. Right now, I am redrawing the complete map from scratch with GP changes and a lot more. The historical aspect is going to be kept as BA is known as a destination for war criminals. Might be another week or two before I get an image up though.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby cairnswk on Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:56 pm

Could you perhaps include Peron and Evita...same era basically. This might assist to include de commescados (think that's how you spell it) and the labour unions - very prominate in Peron's days.
Just a suggestion. :)
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:29 pm

cairnswk wrote:Could you perhaps include Peron and Evita...same era basically. This might assist to include de commescados (think that's how you spell it) and the labour unions - very prominate in Peron's days.
Just a suggestion. :)

Never thought of it but now that you mention it, it sits nicely within the area. Will have a look at fitting them in.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:27 pm

I didn't read completely through the thread, but it seems like you're considering a thematic change. Which I really hope is true because I'm sure Buenos Aires has more going for it than harboring various Nazis after WWII, plus I'm pretty sure Hitler never made it there as after the Cold War when the Soviet archives opened up, we now know that the Soviets knew where Hitler's body in Berlin was and in 1970 they burned and crushed it and dumped in the Elbe.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:51 pm

IH, this is going to be just like Jakarta. One of those ideas that seem to be good, end up being bad and then a complete switch around to get it working again. It will take me a little time to work out the bugs but should have a new image this weekend/early next week by the latest.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [4/2] pg1/2 v6

Postby tokle on Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:51 pm

Donitz wasn't really a Nazi. He was just a soldier that got caught up in the mess.
He was acquitted of the charges of crimes against humanity at the nuremberg trials.

Having said that, I find this nazi theme a bit off.
I'm pretty sure you could come up with a better theme for this City.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [11/2] pg1/3 v3

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:05 am

I know it is ugly but want to share which way this one is going to go now. All gimicks are gone and I am going to go with the history of the city and its expansion over the last 2 centuries. Found a map that shows the growth for this time period. I have kept the mordern names for the provenances and some have had to be merged, especially with the oldest times as the city was very small and had as many regions as the modern city had.

Will work on getting this up to foundry level now. Expect that over the next couple of days. Anything needing to be added (I know the time line needs to be finished) or textures you want to see, let me know.

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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] pg1/3 v3.2

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:18 am

Click image to enlarge.
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Cleaned the image up.
Added the photos of the city through time.
Finished of the title/bonus legend.
Added the neutral starts.
Textures.
Colours optimized.
Impassables done.
Names moved. Now with drop shadow instead of glow.
Added the cities symbol.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] pg1/3 v3.2

Postby Flapcake on Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:50 pm

I realy like the pictures of the city and the legend are also nice, the impasseble trees are not my thing, small houses could look nice, to give the impression of a city ;)
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] pg1/3 v3.2

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:57 pm

Thats an idea fc. Would also be a way to show the difference between the historic and modern cities. Will look at putting them in.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] pg1/3 v3.2

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:24 pm

Glad you ditched the Nazis, I really like the idea of using houses instead of trees and I hope to see it in the next update. One thing kind of bothers me and that's the bonus legend. You should put a little paragraph explaining how the legend works and explaining that the city is divided into time periods... a very unique approach to a city map, in my opinion. Also Mordern should be Modern and you should say something like, Hold all of the the Modern/Historical City for +X troops.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] pg1/3 v3.2

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:38 pm

Looks much better than the nazi version.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] pg1/3 v3.2

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:34 pm

Thanks guys, just looking for that next level. The basic GP is sorted, it is just that graphical flare to bring this idea to life that is needed now.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] pg1/3 v3.2

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:52 pm

Please forget the rest of the image for the moment, I need help with the houses. Any idea on how to draw them freehand (that means no of the shelf images) and make them look like the rest of the map in style. If the houses do not fit, then I can change the style of map easy enough. I have only drawn the first type of house. The large ones are where they need to be and then I shrunk them down. Does the smaller version work, if so then I can use those. I kind of like them as the colours fit the city photos. I can change the colours for the map to fit those quite easy.
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Re: Classic Cities : Buenos Aires [12/2] HELP page 3.

Postby Flapcake on Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:31 pm

You know im not that good an artist to draw those houses in free hand, I would have fond some toy houses on google and then have made an make over in PS.

but i like that idea much better than the trees ;)
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