Israel (V3.0)

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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby joabl on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:04 pm

isaiah40 wrote:The Romans invaded Israel long before 70AD. They were in control of the area as early as 330 BCE, it was during the Great Jewish Revolt from 66 AD to 70AD that lead to the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans. But that is aside from the time frame and theme of this map. As was suggested earlier, it would be a good idea to have the West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza not part of Israel, but make them as decaying neutrals - from fighting. Make sure that you have West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem to denote the Israeli-Arab division.


Yes, Romans came into Jewish lands long before, I never said they didn't come before 70AD. I only stated they destroyed Jerusalem and banished Jews in 70 AD, and that Palestinians have never in the history of the region had control of even an acre of land. It was in response to the historically incorrect assumption that pitrules88 had made. Plus I wasn't writing it in a negative or aggressive manor, or in any way of demeaning pitrules88, I was just stating fact.

I think that this region is a tough one to map out. But when anyone things of the land of Israel, they think of Jews.
Jews first came into the region in 1300 BCE after their Exodus from Egypt. Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years. The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon ( 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem.



What I think might be cool, and a good way to look at this map when drawing it up is the difficulties and challenges Israel deals with on a daily basis. Israel's struggle for "defensible borders" is unique in international diplomacy. It emanates from both the special legal and strategic circumstances that Israel faced in the aftermath of the 1967 Six-Day War, when the Israel Defense Forces captured the West Bank and other territories in a war of self-defense. The previous armistice line of 1949 that separated the Israeli and Jordanian armies was only a military boundary and not a permanent political border, according to the armistice agreement itself. The Jordanian occupation of the West Bank occurred in conjunction with its illegal invasion of the State of Israel in 1948. In fact, Jordanian sovereignty in the West Bank was not recognized by a single Arab state. This provided the background for UN Security Council Resolution 242 of November 1967 which concluded that Israel would need "secure and recognized boundaries" that would necessarily be different from the 1967 lines. The previous status quo was not to be restored.

Terrorism is a huge factor in which all these check points and security barriers were built. This could be an aspect as in how to look at certain territories. Since construction of the fence began, the number of attacks has declined by more than 90%. The number of Israelis murdered and wounded has decreased by more than 70% and 85%, respectively, after erection of the fence. So ares with a fence or wall should be harder to get at, and easier to defend.
Last edited by joabl on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:11 pm

ok... we could go on about history, anything about the epic map?????
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby joabl on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:20 pm

Yes...what I just added to my previous post up above. Forget the past and the history. If we are making a map of Israel, lets look at Israel today. Lets take into account the daily security challenges that Israel has to deal with on a continual basis and work that into the defence and offence aspect of the map.

Israel is considered to have one of the best and largest airforces in the world. Much of Americas jets run on Israeli navigational systems, and sophisticated missile systems. Areas of Israel the are known for having large air force bases could maybe have a wider range of attack. Israel is small so maybe they can attack anything within a certain range, without exaggerating.

I found this map of at least what Israel allows people to know are military bases.
http://www.iaf.org.il/Sip_Storage/FILES/7/45227.jpg
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby pitrules88 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:28 pm

Here's some ideas that I have after reading the posts:

- Every region that is held in Gaza gets a -1 at the start of each turn for fighting, as isaiah40 mentioned. Though we can increase the bonus of it to make it fair. We could do the same for West Bank.

- Jerusalem can be a totally seperate part of the map. Kind of like the map Battle For Iraq that has Baghdad as its own area, that could be the same for Jerusalem and we could divide it into many territories. We may also have Jerusalem as an "air-flight" condition, where if you hold all of it you get a big bonus and can attack any region on the map from the air.

- Tel Aviv is totally blockaded except for 1 border. If you hold all of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv it could be a victory condition.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby joabl on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:53 pm

pitrules88 wrote:Here's some ideas that I have after reading the posts:

- Every region that is held in Gaza gets a -1 at the start of each turn for fighting, as isaiah40 mentioned. Though we can increase the bonus of it to make it fair. We could do the same for West Bank.

- Jerusalem can be a totally seperate part of the map. Kind of like the map Battle For Iraq that has Baghdad as its own area, that could be the same for Jerusalem and we could divide it into many territories. We may also have Jerusalem as an "air-flight" condition, where if you hold all of it you get a big bonus and can attack any region on the map from the air.

- Tel Aviv is totally blockaded except for 1 border. If you hold all of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv it could be a victory condition.


You have some good ideas, but by creating the illusion that Israel isn't already in control of everything makes no sense and not very accurate. Gaza terrorist and militant groups for example shoot into Israel a barrage of different rockets from home made Qassams, to anti tank missiles they manage to smuggle in from Egypt through tunnels. Some rockets gettings as far as 22 kilometers in. What we could do is take away Gaza's bonus if someone else has control of all other areas bordering Egypt. Since Israel will then be able to intercept smuggling operations from Egypt.

I like the idea that Jerusalem can be a totally separate part of the map. That could be a bit complicated but I like where you're going with it. Jerusalem can separately be zoomed up on the side. In theory we could do that for all three of the disputed areas. Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank. Just saying....could be interesting.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:46 pm

joabl wrote:Terrorism is a huge factor in which all these check points and security barriers were built. This could be an aspect as in how to look at certain territories. Since construction of the fence began, the number of attacks has declined by more than 90%. The number of Israelis murdered and wounded has decreased by more than 70% and 85%, respectively, after erection of the fence. So ares with a fence or wall should be harder to get at, and easier to defend.


Where is this fence located? we could make it a win condition for holding it all?
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby joabl on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:45 pm

crazymilkshake5 wrote:Where is this fence located? we could make it a win condition for holding it all?


The main part of the fence goes a long most of the West Bank. Before the construction of the fence, and in many places where it has not yet been completed, a terrorist need only walk across an invisible line to cross from the West Bank into Israel. No barriers of any kind exist, so it is easy to see how a barrier, no matter how imperfect, won't at least make the terrorists' job more difficult. Approximately 75 percent ofthe suicide bombers who attacked targets inside Israel came from across the border where the first phase of the fence was built.

What might be interesting is if we make certain attackable from only one side because of the security barrier. The security barrier in total is 760 kilometres (470 mi) long. For some strange reason it has come under much condemnation, even though terrorism has gone down 98.5% but that's another story. The reason I mention the condemnation is because people always talk about the security barrier in a negative way and show images of huge concrete walls. People absurdly even come Jews to the Nazi's. But in reality less than 5% if I am not mistaken is concrete, the rest is just a chain linked fence. So the areas that do have the concrete we could make it that you can only attack from one way out.

Here is a detailed map of the fence:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ence10.jpg
Last edited by joabl on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:52 pm

I do not like the colors... use a color wheel... make it artistic.

I like the map though.. good work so far
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:04 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:I do not like the colors... use a color wheel... make it artistic.

I like the map though.. good work so far

Just had to use something, what would be better colors? (im not good with colors)
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby joabl on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:17 pm

crazymilkshake5 wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:I do not like the colors... use a color wheel... make it artistic.

I like the map though.. good work so far

Just had to use something, what would be better colors? (im not good with colors)


How about the colors of a very popular map of Israel?
http://www.paulines.ph/images/services/Israel-Map2.gif
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:30 pm

joabl wrote:
crazymilkshake5 wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:I do not like the colors... use a color wheel... make it artistic.

I like the map though.. good work so far

Just had to use something, what would be better colors? (im not good with colors)


How about the colors of a very popular map of Israel?
http://www.paulines.ph/images/services/Israel-Map2.gif



Man I wish I was an artist and could help you. But I know if you google "color wheel chart" you will see a scince of colors that compliment each other and make art flow.


off of the top of my head... take a look at india and friggin south africa by IH here.. Those are VERY VERY VERY pleasing to the eye..


I like your make and I do actually always feel like a shit leaving criticism... but I think if you have please color combos this will fly through on the sub-conscience here easier.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby Gillipig on Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:47 pm

I think there's too much focus on history and how to make the map reflect reality! Focus on making a player friendly and good looking map instead.
The problem seems to be the shape of Israel. Try bending the country so that it takes up less space in height and more in width. It won't look exactly like the shape of Israel but maybe it will get done ;)!
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby israel. on Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:29 pm

I think it looks ok, I'm sure there are technical constraints to building a map but I do have a few suggestions.

- calling the bottom area the Sinai is wrong on numerouse levels

- You made jerusalem part of the west bank. Instead I would suggest making a separate bonus for the old city, or at least make it separate from the west bank. I'm sure you know the old city has 4 quarters, the other 2 being Armenian and Christian and it would be cool if you could incorporate the old city of Jerusalem. At the minimum I would suggest removing Jerusalem from the west bank bonus and making it similar to Luxembourg city on the lux. Map. Jerusalem of coarse is much bigger then just the old city and the newer Jerusalem is both israels capital city and not located in the west bank.

- finally I would get rid of the pink, the yellows and grey read like desert but the pink...
I would stick with dessert collors, maybe even some green in the more fertile sections of Israel.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:24 am

israel. wrote: Jerusalem of coarse is much bigger then just the old city and the newer Jerusalem is both israels capital city and not located in the west bank.


I thought Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel. I could be wrong. I guess maybe I shouldn't argue with the guy named Israel... I don't know.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby joabl on Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:42 am

tkr4lf wrote:
israel. wrote: Jerusalem of coarse is much bigger then just the old city and the newer Jerusalem is both israels capital city and not located in the west bank.


I thought Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel. I could be wrong. I guess maybe I shouldn't argue with the guy named Israel... I don't know.


Yes...you would be incorrect when you say that Tel Aviv i the capital of Israel. Tel Aviv is just a major city, modern and
filled with high tech companies. Its actually smaller than Jerusalem in size too. Jerusalem on the other hand is the eternal
capital of Israel. It something they had fought for 2000 years to get back. It also is not in the West Bank.

East Jerusalem however has a very large Arab population. And maybe this could come into a factor. Like discussed originally,
I think that Jerusalem could be a whole mini war of itself.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:14 pm

joabl wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:
israel. wrote: Jerusalem of coarse is much bigger then just the old city and the newer Jerusalem is both israels capital city and not located in the west bank.


I thought Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel. I could be wrong. I guess maybe I shouldn't argue with the guy named Israel... I don't know.


Yes...you would be incorrect when you say that Tel Aviv i the capital of Israel. Tel Aviv is just a major city, modern and
filled with high tech companies. Its actually smaller than Jerusalem in size too. Jerusalem on the other hand is the eternal
capital of Israel. It something they had fought for 2000 years to get back. It also is not in the West Bank.

East Jerusalem however has a very large Arab population. And maybe this could come into a factor. Like discussed originally,
I think that Jerusalem could be a whole mini war of itself.

Ok.

I think I see where the confusion comes from. While Jerusalem is Israel's de facto capital, no other countries in the world recognize it as such, partly because all of the embassies are in Tel Aviv, and partly because of various UN resolutions/rulings (which don't really matter that much, to be honest).

But, in my opinion, a sovereign nation get's to define it's own capital, so I guess it doesn't much matter what other nations consider to be Israel's capital.

I learned something new today. :)
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby joabl on Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:24 am

tkr4lf wrote:
joabl wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:
israel. wrote: Jerusalem of coarse is much bigger then just the old city and the newer Jerusalem is both israels capital city and not located in the west bank.


I thought Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel. I could be wrong. I guess maybe I shouldn't argue with the guy named Israel... I don't know.


Yes...you would be incorrect when you say that Tel Aviv i the capital of Israel. Tel Aviv is just a major city, modern and
filled with high tech companies. Its actually smaller than Jerusalem in size too. Jerusalem on the other hand is the eternal
capital of Israel. It something they had fought for 2000 years to get back. It also is not in the West Bank.

East Jerusalem however has a very large Arab population. And maybe this could come into a factor. Like discussed originally,
I think that Jerusalem could be a whole mini war of itself.

Ok.

I think I see where the confusion comes from. While Jerusalem is Israel's de facto capital, no other countries in the world recognize it as such, partly because all of the embassies are in Tel Aviv, and partly because of various UN resolutions/rulings (which don't really matter that much, to be honest).

But, in my opinion, a sovereign nation get's to define it's own capital, so I guess it doesn't much matter what other nations consider to be Israel's capital.

I learned something new today. :)



Yeah, that was actually a good way of putting it. However America has a Consulate General in Jerusalem though. Regardless if you look up Israel in any encyclopaedia it shows Jerusalem as its capital. Also on any map. I think its fair to say regardless of what other countries might think is that Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel and it would be geographically incorrect to say otherwise.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:24 am

pitrules88, while I am digging a map of Israel, there are some concerns that I have.

Your current draft has no legend on it.Please get one on the next draft.

Your bonus zones are out of whack. You have a lot of very tiny bonuses top and bottom. This is a big no. Geographical accuracy is not as important as game play so you will need to have another look at those as well.

Graphics aside, right now they could use a little lot of improvement. ;) Please, can you go and have a play with what ever graphics software you are using. (If it is GIMP), have a look at natty dreads tutorial...
viewtopic.php?f=649&t=140723
viewtopic.php?f=649&t=141577
and you can even send a few questions my way. :-$

Your map is very tall, try to make it wider and then you can rotate the map at an angle (look at Portugal). This will give you far more room for the legend and more space for the map itself. Remember, you also need to do a small map and right now, you will not be able to do that with your current image. It might be better to scrap it completely and start afresh. If you do that, then take a look at this beauty.
viewtopic.php?f=242&t=109112&hilit=Israel

Lastly, can you pleae update the threads title to show...
- maps name - date of last update - page of last update. Like this...
Israel [2/4] pg3

Hope to see the next draft soon.

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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:33 am

[Moved]


If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;)

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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby thehippo8 on Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:39 am

Gillipig wrote:I think there's too much focus on history and how to make the map reflect reality! Focus on making a player friendly and good looking map instead.
The problem seems to be the shape of Israel. Try bending the country so that it takes up less space in height and more in width. It won't look exactly like the shape of Israel but maybe it will get done ;)!


I never realised that it looks like an icecream in an icecream cone before! :shock:
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby BluU on Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:30 pm

WOW

I'm glad I came into this thread.
I'm a native Israeli, and I will try to give my comments here without getting into politics. Trying to be objective. Please note that once this is published you'll here plenty from people on the site that are not objective. This is a huge bloody dispute, so you'll need to be ready to stand in the middle of it. People might be very offensive! I would really love having a map of Israel here. But you and the owners of the site need to be aware that it might get very ugly...

Now for the objective input.
I don't like the area bonuses you selected as they are not aligned with the normal way the regions are known within the country.
The only correct bonus area you got are close are Galilee and the West Bank.
If you need some help in more logical split, I would be happy to assist.

Here is a link to the official split
Israel:
http://gis.cbs.gov.il/shnaton53/all_israel.jpg

Palestinian Authority:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_election_map.PNG

Sharon is a much smaller area from what you assigned. So is Gaza. Sinai is not part of Israel at all!
If you want to avoid political issues you should keep Jerusalem out of any regional bonus, and separate it in color from all other bonuses. +1 deploy should be enough reason to take this region, (like it is in Luxemburg map for example).

Some of your region names are wrong. you need to decide if you to keep the Israeli\Arabic Names, which I think it's a better idea.

The following needs to be corrected:

Haifa - this region better be renamed to Acco (known as Acre in English) As Haifa
Tiberias - the Hebrew name is Tveria
Lake Tiberias - the Hebrew name is Kineret
Hadera - should be changed to Haifa, which is the major city in that area.
Bet Shean - The actual city of Beit Shean is in the area you named Nazareth. this city is not in the West Bank! I have no better name for the region as it doesn't hold a major city.
Jenin is the correct City name in Arabic and not Jamin.
There is no place named West Tikva or East Tikva. Nablus is located in the region you named West Tikva. you better rename West Tikva to Jerico . and rename the region you called Nablus to Tul Karem .
Allah - Is god in arabic, you wouldn't want to call a region after god! Ramallah is the name of the city.
Nir Yizhak - Gaza is the major city in this area. don't replace it with a village of few thousands.
Dead Sea - Yam HaMelach in Hebrew
Beer Sheba is not located in the area you designated.
the name is Yerhuham and not Veruham

I can go on honestly, but before renaming you regions and your bonus regions you need to better split them differently if you want to have it closer to reality. I think the links I gave you above should help.

Israel is a small country. 24-30 regions should be enough to represent it.

Feel free to PM me if you wish to have more help.
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Re: Israel (V3.0)

Postby Gillipig on Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:11 am

We have an Iraq map with al qaida featured as bonus regions. We have WWII maps. I don't think this (if it'll get done) is going to be more extreme than what we already have on this site.
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