The Black Sea [July 2nd] V.2, Pg. 1 & 4

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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:42 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I know natty can help you with that, since you're using gimp if I remember correctly.

MOVED into the Drafting Room!!

Yup, still using GIMP.

And thanks for the move!
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby Oneyed on Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:28 am

Isle of Rhodes in your map is Isle of Crete in reality.
will be also Aegean Sea, Sea of Azov and Sea of Mamara playable territories? because I can not see place for army numbers.
in legend, replace "Each" with symbol of city and delete part where is "city symbol = city".
each city lies in "its" region, but Rostov does not.
maybe some impassables would help.

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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:36 am

Oneyed wrote:Isle of Rhodes in your map is Isle of Crete in reality.

Good catch. Not sure how I missed that. Thanks!

Oneyed wrote:will be also Aegean Sea, Sea of Azov and Sea of Mamara playable territories? because I can not see place for army numbers.

I hadn't planned on making them playable terits, but it's something I can look into. Anybody else think this would be a good idea as well?

Oneyed wrote:in legend, replace "Each" with symbol of city and delete part where is "city symbol = city".

Can do.

Oneyed wrote:each city lies in "its" region, but Rostov does not.

Yeah, I missed that one. I had it in my mind to go back and do it, but I had gotten busy with doing something else on the map, and completely forgot about it. It's in my list of things to do for the next update.

Oneyed wrote:maybe some impassables would help.

Oneyed

Impassables are in my list of things to do for the next update as well. They're pretty much a must for this map. Otherwise, the map is way too open and most of the bonuses will be almost impossible to hold.

Thanks for the input! Please keep coming back and commenting, I can use the extra eyes. Mine seem to miss things...

I'll be working on the next update tomorrow/this weekend, so expect an update before too long. It does take me a while to do things though, I'm kind of slow with it.
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby Oneyed on Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:52 am

tkr4lf wrote:
Oneyed wrote:will be also Aegean Sea, Sea of Azov and Sea of Mamara playable territories? because I can not see place for army numbers.

I hadn't planned on making them playable terits, but it's something I can look into. Anybody else think this would be a good idea as well?


I just ask, because I saw sea names. if they will not be playable territories delete names or make them less visible.

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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby Flapcake on Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:37 am

I realy like you idea for this map, and Its a good start too.

personaly I think this would do good for graphics, dont use drop shadow on outer border for the land areas (looks confusing and flikers my eyes) use outer glow instead, make a copy of the border and put on outer glow and insert layer in middels of water and land.

Your font for territorys names, "strong" are to much when so many names are close together, try smooth or crisp, or non ;) also here, drop shadow dont work, especialy when its not global, get rid of the shadow and try outer glow, or aleast tune down the shadow and give it some distance.

I love the colours your using, very nice, also the texture are nice. good work so far :)
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:40 am

Oneyed wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:
Oneyed wrote:will be also Aegean Sea, Sea of Azov and Sea of Mamara playable territories? because I can not see place for army numbers.

I hadn't planned on making them playable terits, but it's something I can look into. Anybody else think this would be a good idea as well?


I just ask, because I saw sea names. if they will not be playable territories delete names or make them less visible.

Oneyed

Ok, I can do that.

If I decide to make them playable, I can just make all sea terits killer neutrals able to assault all bordering land regions and all bordering seas. That would eliminate the need for sea routes, but it would also serve to make the map less open, especially in the Aegean/Mediterranean Seas, since I planned on having multiple sea routes, for example, From Laconia to both The Greek Isles and Crete, from The Greek Isles to Tekirdag, Republic of Cyrpus, etc.

Well, so I guess it would serve to close off the map a little by making only one assault route through the seas, but would open it up by making the seas able to assault any land region it borders.

I don't know, I'll have to think about which way works better with the current gameplay.
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:48 am

Flapcake wrote:I realy like you idea for this map, and Its a good start too.

Thanks!

Flapcake wrote:personaly I think this would do good for graphics, dont use drop shadow on outer border for the land areas (looks confusing and flikers my eyes) use outer glow instead, make a copy of the border and put on outer glow and insert layer in middels of water and land.

Ok, I can do that no problem.

Flapcake wrote:Your font for territorys names, "strong" are to much when so many names are close together, try smooth or crisp, or non ;) also here, drop shadow dont work, especialy when its not global, get rid of the shadow and try outer glow, or aleast tune down the shadow and give it some distance.

Ah, thanks for this feedback. I was wondering how the font was being perceived. I really like the font I'm using for this map, it seems to go well. Luckily, there is a standard font and then the bold font, so I can switch from the bold to the standard for the terit labels and see if that looks better.

I can also mess around with the drop shadow for the font and see if I can't give it a little more distance. Or, it may look better the way it is when I switch from the bold font to the regular version of the font. As far as tuning the shadow down, it's already down to 50% opacity, I can set it down further if need be. But I'll wait and see how it looks with the skinnier font first.

Flapcake wrote:I love the colours your using, very nice, also the texture are nice. good work so far :)

Thanks! The color scheme is basically a rainbow, lol. It goes around the black sea, green to yellow, yellow to orange, orange to red, red to purple, purple to blue, blue to green.

Thanks for you feedback and support! Keep an eye out sometime this weekend for the next update.

Oh, also, I've updated the first post with new stuff for me to do for the next update, based on the feedback I've received so far.
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:15 am

Some more feedback I could still use:

Are the borders clear enough? Do they look pixelated?

How is the placement for the army circles? Any issues anybody notices with those? (Other than the obvious places where they don't fit without going over/under borders and names.)

Will it be an issue with how I've handled cities/terits with the same name? As you can see, I named the region (e.g. Antalya) and then simply added (City) to the name for the city (e.g. Antalya (City)). Is that an acceptable solution or do I need to find a different name to use for those terits?

The cities...Do they look ok? I'm sure they will probably need to change eventually. An idea I had is to have one icon for the victory condition cities and one icon for the rest of the cities. Do you guys think that will be necessary, or is it clear enough which cities I'm referring to in regards to the victory condition?
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:01 pm

tkr4lf wrote:Some more feedback I could still use:

Are the borders clear enough? Do they look pixelated?

They do look pixelated, you'll probably need to eventually fix 'em up. In terms of actual border placement, some places seem often linear...like the bonus zones at the top of the map. Turkey's region look more natural. What did you use to base your borders on?

Will it be an issue with how I've handled cities/terits with the same name? As you can see, I named the region (e.g. Antalya) and then simply added (City) to the name for the city (e.g. Antalya (City)). Is that an acceptable solution or do I need to find a different name to use for those terits?

I'll let some of the more advanced Foundry folks comment on this, since I am not sure.

The cities...Do they look ok? I'm sure they will probably need to change eventually. An idea I had is to have one icon for the victory condition cities and one icon for the rest of the cities. Do you guys think that will be necessary, or is it clear enough which cities I'm referring to in regards to the victory condition?
I think you've probably got the right idea for the icon (a couple of buildings), but they'll probably have to evolve as the graphics get better.

I'll dig more into this map hopefully in another couple of days or a week or so!

Keep up the work,


--Andy
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby Peter Gibbons on Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:31 pm

I really like this idea--both the area and the concept.

I think graphics will work themselves out over time and you have a good start, so nothing much to add there at the moment. I would suggest you're going to need a new, clearer font, but that might just be my personal taste. I also think the symbol for the city should (and eventually will) be more sophisticated.

For gameplay, a few questions/points:

1) Each city autodeploys +1 and gives a +1 bonus? I know there's a lot of territories on the map, but that seems like a lot. How are the cities going to start? Neutral 2? Regardless, I think the autodeploy is going to be more than enough and might even be too much already given how many cities there are on the map. Perhaps something more like Fractured America/China or the USA Map pack, where X number of cities equals a bonus.

2) Is the Black Sea as a killer neutral the best method to go about connecting the territories around the perimeter? What about making the cities on the Sea act as ports, which can attack each other? Just seems like using the Black Sea as a giant territory that appears to border at least 22 land territories is a recipe for disaster.

3) I think the victory condition is arbitrary and somewhat ambiguous. Why should the 10 cities "around" the Black Sea be worth more than the others? Plus, if you need to hold a specific 10 cities, I think they should look different than the other cities. I think I know which 10 you mean, but it would be much easier to make it visually clear. Regardless, I think a victory condition based on the cities might be too much here. I think this could work better if it were more like Fractured China/America or Nordic Countries, where the capitals are just part of the game.

4) Is there a Rostov and a Rostov city territory? It seems like something is omitted there.

5) I think that, in general, you're going to have to make the city names much more clear (perhaps a different font) and you're going to have to make it clear which territories that cities can attack. Can they only attack the territories that contain them? Can they attack adjacent territories to the territories found within? I think a very clear, more visually-pleasing legend is going to be an absolute must.
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:24 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:Some more feedback I could still use:

Are the borders clear enough? Do they look pixelated?

They do look pixelated, you'll probably need to eventually fix 'em up. In terms of actual border placement, some places seem often linear...like the bonus zones at the top of the map. Turkey's region look more natural. What did you use to base your borders on?

For the pixelated borders, is it just the territory borders (the thinner ones) that look pixelated, or is it all the borders (the thicker and thinner ones)?

As for what I based the borders on, they're mostly artificial. My reason for this is that the actual administrative borders for these countries are freaking tiny. Honestly, the borders for Russia are about the truest to original I have here, and even they aren't really even, oh, maybe 75% accurate. Basically I tried to combine multiple administrative districts into each territory.

I kind of think the Turkey borders probably look more natural since they're much bigger than the others. I can go back and redraw all the territory borders (which I will need to do anyway, since they're pixelated) to try to get them more natural looking, and perhaps to more closely match up with the actual administrative districts. I will never be able to get them 100% accurate though, as then the army numbers, much less the territory labels, would never fit.


AndyDufresne wrote:
Will it be an issue with how I've handled cities/terits with the same name? As you can see, I named the region (e.g. Antalya) and then simply added (City) to the name for the city (e.g. Antalya (City)). Is that an acceptable solution or do I need to find a different name to use for those terits?

I'll let some of the more advanced Foundry folks comment on this, since I am not sure.

Fair enough.


AndyDufresne wrote:
The cities...Do they look ok? I'm sure they will probably need to change eventually. An idea I had is to have one icon for the victory condition cities and one icon for the rest of the cities. Do you guys think that will be necessary, or is it clear enough which cities I'm referring to in regards to the victory condition?
I think you've probably got the right idea for the icon (a couple of buildings), but they'll probably have to evolve as the graphics get better.

I'll dig more into this map hopefully in another couple of days or a week or so!

Keep up the work,


--Andy

Cool, I can work on the city icons more. I was actually considering making the icons be skyscrapers, since the map uses modern political boundaries for countries, and honestly the icon I have now is more of a medieval type looking building.

Thanks for the feedback, Andy, I look forward to hearing more from you!
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:50 pm

Peter Gibbons wrote:I really like this idea--both the area and the concept.

Thanks!

Peter Gibbons wrote:I think graphics will work themselves out over time and you have a good start, so nothing much to add there at the moment. I would suggest you're going to need a new, clearer font, but that might just be my personal taste. I also think the symbol for the city should (and eventually will) be more sophisticated.

As for the font, I'm using Book Antiqua. I quite like it for the map. I think you're referring to the territory labels here? If so, I used the bold version of Book Antiqua for them, which is why they come off as too strong, I think. I'm going to redo them using the normal Book Antiqua and I'll post that and we can see how it looks. If it's still not a good fit, then I can easily find something else that works better.

As for the city, I'll work on it. I commented more on that aspect in the previous post responding to Andy.

Peter Gibbons wrote:For gameplay, a few questions/points:

1) Each city autodeploys +1 and gives a +1 bonus? I know there's a lot of territories on the map, but that seems like a lot. How are the cities going to start? Neutral 2? Regardless, I think the autodeploy is going to be more than enough and might even be too much already given how many cities there are on the map. Perhaps something more like Fractured America/China or the USA Map pack, where X number of cities equals a bonus.


Well, I wanted to give them the autodeploy to emphasize their importance, and to make holding them especially worthwhile. I wanted to give them the small bonus because most of the bonus areas on this map are rather big. There's really only 3 or 4 small(ish) bonuses, other than the 2 one-territory bonuses (Republic of Cyprus and Macedonia), Serbia, Moldova, Georgia, and I guess Northeast Turkey. Having the cities give +1 to your drop would make it easier to get enough going to be able to take one of those larger bonuses, and hold it. But I'm not married to this idea, so it can be changed if enough people feel like it should be.

I had planned on having the cities start either neutral 2 or 3, and having the territory that the city is in start as a neutral 2 or 3 as well, making taking the cities an investment.

Having the cities function more as a collection bonus could be an alternative, but I'd like to get more feedback on that issue.


Peter Gibbons wrote:2) Is the Black Sea as a killer neutral the best method to go about connecting the territories around the perimeter? What about making the cities on the Sea act as ports, which can attack each other? Just seems like using the Black Sea as a giant territory that appears to border at least 22 land territories is a recipe for disaster.

Well, the reason I didn't want the cities to directly be seaports is because of the victory condition. I wanted it to be harder to take and hold all 10 of the cities. Having it as a playable territory does solve the problem of having tons of sea routes going all through the area, but it can be changed if need be.

Originally, the Black Sea wasn't going to be a playable territory. It was simply going to have sea routes plastered all over it. But, I liked the killer neutral idea because it clears up that area, plus it allows for easy movement across the sea, but not too easy. Once I adopted this idea, I had to make the cities separate from the territories, otherwise it would be too easy to take the 10 cities needed for the victory condition.

Like I said, it can be reworked, but it probably needs to be something other than just having sea routes all over the place, because I think it will look pretty messy with that many sea routes.


Peter Gibbons wrote:3) I think the victory condition is arbitrary and somewhat ambiguous. Why should the 10 cities "around" the Black Sea be worth more than the others? Plus, if you need to hold a specific 10 cities, I think they should look different than the other cities. I think I know which 10 you mean, but it would be much easier to make it visually clear. Regardless, I think a victory condition based on the cities might be too much here. I think this could work better if it were more like Fractured China/America or Nordic Countries, where the capitals are just part of the game.

My reasoning behind making the 10 cities surrounding the black sea as the victory condition was that in order to hold those territs, you would have to have a pretty good grip on the black sea, and that controlling the Black Sea should mean victory, since this map uses the Black Sea as the main focal point. Does that make sense?

It's not so much that the cities around the black sea are worth more than the others, it's more that if you control those major cities around it, then you control it. And controlling it should be what the map is about.

I agree they should look different than the other cities if they are going to be the victory condition. I actually asked about that in an earlier post. But it's good to have some confirmation that it's a good idea to differentiate graphically between them.

To be clear, the cities that would be in the Victory Condition are: (going counter-clock-wise) Sevastopol, Odessa, Constanta, Varna, Istanbul, Zonguldak, Trebzon, Batumi, Krasnodar and Rostov.


Peter Gibbons wrote:4) Is there a Rostov and a Rostov city territory? It seems like something is omitted there.

Yes, there is supposed to be a city and a territory there. I missed it. I had actually planned on going back to get it, but then got busy doing something else with the map and must have looked right over it when I was checking everything before I uploaded it. That will be fixed in the next update.



Peter Gibbons wrote:5) I think that, in general, you're going to have to make the city names much more clear (perhaps a different font) and you're going to have to make it clear which territories that cities can attack. Can they only attack the territories that contain them? Can they attack adjacent territories to the territories found within? I think a very clear, more visually-pleasing legend is going to be an absolute must.

My plan was to have the cities only capable of attacking and being attacked by the city they are in. I can understand how it's not very clear at the moment.

I'll work on the font issue, and I can work on the legend as well. I may have to reduce some of the territories in Southwest Turkey in order to expand the legend, because right now it's just not big enough. I can't reduce the font size much more in the legend or I risk it being unreadable, especially once I make the small version. So I think I'll have to expand it.


Thanks for your feedback! I appreciate all of it. Keep an eye out for my next update, I will try to include as much of the feedback I have received as possible.
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby Gillipig on Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:29 pm

Your territory labels are a bit too dark and thick. Try using some different fonts to come up with a good fitting one. Also remove the black line in the bottom of your houses, it makes them look pasted on top of the map. Which they are of course but you don't want it to look like it :).
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:30 pm

Gillipig wrote:Your territory labels are a bit too dark and thick. Try using some different fonts to come up with a good fitting one. Also remove the black line in the bottom of your houses, it makes them look pasted on top of the map. Which they are of course but you don't want it to look like it :).

Will do. Thanks.
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Re: The Black Sea (Version 2, Page 1, 3/29)

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:32 pm

Does anybody have any further input on these 2 issues?


Peter Gibbons wrote:2) Is the Black Sea as a killer neutral the best method to go about connecting the territories around the perimeter? What about making the cities on the Sea act as ports, which can attack each other? Just seems like using the Black Sea as a giant territory that appears to border at least 22 land territories is a recipe for disaster.



3) I think the victory condition is arbitrary and somewhat ambiguous. Why should the 10 cities "around" the Black Sea be worth more than the others? Plus, if you need to hold a specific 10 cities, I think they should look different than the other cities. I think I know which 10 you mean, but it would be much easier to make it visually clear. Regardless, I think a victory condition based on the cities might be too much here. I think this could work better if it were more like Fractured China/America or Nordic Countries, where the capitals are just part of the game.


Should the Black Sea stay as a killer neutral able to attack all bordering land terits, or should it not be a playable terit and instead utilize sea routes to open up the area? Or, maybe it stays as a killer neutral but is only able to assault certain terits around the black sea, like maybe only terits with a city in them? Any thoughts on this?

And what about the victory condition? Does it seem too arbitrary? Does it work how it is? Does my reasoning for having the 10 cities surrounding the Black Sea as the victory condition make sense? Or should I get rid of the victory condition and simply have the cities as a part of the map? Or have something else as the victory condition?

I would appreciate any feedback on these two issues. I need to know what more people think about these before I can do certain updates. Thanks guys.
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