The Black Sea [July 2nd] V.2, Pg. 1 & 4

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Re: The Black Sea [March 29] V.2, Pg. 1

Postby cairnswk on Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:56 pm

Nice start tkr4lf... :)

Things i like...imho
1. the sea is great
2. the land texture
3. the colours fit well together design wise and they appear OK colour-blind wise.
4. there is a good smattering of regions large and small, although i haven't examine gameplay to any detail

Things that could use improvement...eventually
1. border lines are pixelated
2. i think the territory font is quite heavy and looks bolded, some names i would have trouble reading. Perhaps something less bolded/heavy...along with the names in the Mediterranean - these are also hard to read...perhaps some outer glow might fix that.

Good start otherwise, i look forward to seeing where this goes. :)
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Re: The Black Sea [March 29] V.2, Pg. 1

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:21 am

cairnswk wrote:Nice start tkr4lf... :)

Thanks!


cairnswk wrote:Things i like...imho
1. the sea is great
2. the land texture
3. the colours fit well together design wise and they appear OK colour-blind wise.
4. there is a good smattering of regions large and small, although i haven't examine gameplay to any detail

Thanks, but I'm surprised about the water. I mean, I think it looks ok, and definitely better than before, but I really think it could look better. Either way, thanks for the kind words.


cairnswk wrote:Things that could use improvement...eventually
1. border lines are pixelated
2. i think the territory font is quite heavy and looks bolded, some names i would have trouble reading. Perhaps something less bolded/heavy...along with the names in the Mediterranean - these are also hard to read...perhaps some outer glow might fix that.

Pixelated border lines will be fixed in the next update.

Territory font will be as well. I actually used the bold version of Book Antiqua for them, I'm going to try the regular version. As long as I don't think they look like crap that way, then I'll include that in the next update and let you guys judge how it looks.


cairnswk wrote:Good start otherwise, i look forward to seeing where this goes. :)

Again, thanks! Your kind words mean a lot, especially considering who they are coming from. :D

Keep an eye out, I'll have the next update soon. I've been kind of busy so far this weekend, but I will definitely have one out sometime this week.

And if you do get a chance to look at gameplay, can you give your thoughts on the last post on page 2?
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Re: The Black Sea [March 29] V.2, Pg. 1

Postby PereiroSaus on Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:38 pm

Way to go, bro...!

I would clear the font a bit, yeah
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Re: The Black Sea [March 29] V.2, Pg. 1

Postby tkr4lf on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:20 am

PereiroSaus wrote:Way to go, bro...!

I would clear the font a bit, yeah

Thanks.



I'm working on the next update now. I've redrawn the terit borders, they look much better now, not pixelated anymore. I've merged some territs to make more room/ensure better clarity. Also enlarged the legend a bit to allow for more information. I've cleared up the font issue, I think. I'll let you guys be the judge of that. I've still got lots to do for this update though, so I won't be posting it for a while unless somebody really wants to see the few changes I've made so far.
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Re: The Black Sea [March 29] V.2, Pg. 1

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:51 pm

Firstly let me say that I love the concept. However, I think your greens are to similar. I also think a minimap would be better than the colored words. Rivers or mountains would be an excellent addition as the map feels pretty wide open to me.

I can't honestly tell if the Aegean is a territory of its own, or if maybe that is Attica's circle just a bit misplaced. Tighten it up a bit, get circles as close as possible to the words. Unless absolutely necessary, put the circle and name on the land it belongs to. At the very worst, put the name at least partially on the land and the dot at the end of the word.

Also, what you have listed as Rhodes is not Rhodes, but actually Crete and that city is Heraklion. On your map, Rhodes is two islands east of Crete.
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Re: The Black Sea [March 29] V.2, Pg. 1

Postby tkr4lf on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:19 pm

Version 3:

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image



New to Version 3:
- Added Impassables (Yes, they're not pretty. Yes, they're just mountains. I plan on doing forests as well, possibly some rivers. For now, I just wanted to get the impassables in place so I could get feedback on the placement and the effect on gameplay.)
- Added Sea Routes
- Fixed Territory Borders (Hopefully cleared up the pixelation issue, cleared up the issue with room for army numbers/circles, hopefully made the borders look more natural, deleted/merged some territories to make room for legend/army numbers/circles.)
- Changed the font. Hopefully it's not so strong now. Could use feedback on this issue.
- Fixed Rostov territory/city label issue.
- Fixed the Isle of Rhodes territory; Changed it to Crete. (Regarding IH's post, I could have sworn Rhodes was on Crete. I learn something new everyday. Will change the city name to Heraklion next update.)
- Got rid of drop shadow around the land and switched to an outer glow. Could use some feedback on how this looks.
- Removed black line from bottom of city icon to make it look more natural.
- Changed the legend. (Updated bonus values due to impassables being added, clarified assault routes for cities, changed the background for the legend.)
- I tried to make a minimap to show the bonus values, but had no luck with that. There wasn't enough room in the legend. Instead, I put the bonus values on the bonuses themselves. Could use feedback on how this looks. Also, will it be enough? Do I need to indicate the bonus values in the legend even though they're indicated on the bonuses themselves?
- Changed some territory names, adjusted some due to actual territory adjustments.
- Dropped any sea names that aren't playable territories.


Still to do:
-Come up with a better city icon.
-Graphically differentiate between victory condition cities and regular cities.
-Clean and spice up the legend.
-Make the water look more realistic.
-Spice up the map border.



Feedback I could use:
- How is the placement of the impassables? I don't need comments on how they look, I know they look like crap. The mountains will be redrawn later. How is the placement? Is the effect on gameplay ok?
- Is the font better now?
- Does the outer glow on the land look acceptable?
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Re: The Black Sea [March 29] V.2, Pg. 1

Postby tkr4lf on Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Firstly let me say that I love the concept.

Thanks!

Industrial Helix wrote:However, I think your greens are to similar. I also think a minimap would be better than the colored words. Rivers or mountains would be an excellent addition as the map feels pretty wide open to me.

Ok, I can work on making more difference in between the greens. Are there any in particular that are too similar? Or are they all too similar?

As for impassables, they were added in the latest update. Keep in mind, they look like crap, and were added solely to show the placement I had in mind and to gauge the effects on gameplay. The mountains will be redrawn, and I plan to mix it up with forests, mountains, and possibly rivers.

Industrial Helix wrote:I can't honestly tell if the Aegean is a territory of its own, or if maybe that is Attica's circle just a bit misplaced. Tighten it up a bit, get circles as close as possible to the words. Unless absolutely necessary, put the circle and name on the land it belongs to. At the very worst, put the name at least partially on the land and the dot at the end of the word.

For now, the only body of water that is a playable territory is the Black Sea. All of the territory labels and army circles have been moved around as of the latest update, can you see if I have the same problem on this version?

Unfortunately you commented on Version 2 just before I uploaded version 3, so some of your complaints, etc. have been addressed, or at least I think they have. Any new comments/complaints on version 3 would be appreciated.

Industrial Helix wrote:Also, what you have listed as Rhodes is not Rhodes, but actually Crete and that city is Heraklion. On your map, Rhodes is two islands east of Crete.

Wow. I swear, I have always thought that Rhodes was on Crete. I checked google maps to verify your information, and you are right. Amazing, I learn something new everyday! Thanks for noticing that, it will be fixed in the next update.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby Flapcake on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:20 am

Looking better, still some work to do ;)

The font you using, I like it realy much, fits the theme, but the drop shadow destroys the true design, its to sharp/strong and close, try just to have plain, if a effect are needed, outer glow wont have a huge impact on the font design, some times less is more.

the outer glow on border to the sea are certainly worth working on, suggestion make the transition more soft and wider, to give the effect that the sea are hitting the coast line.

army cirkles are not realy needed, they seems to cluttering up, maby only used for the sea, I dont know :-k

(have to comment :mrgreen: sorry) the mountain ranges are not bad, they just seems to "float" on top of the image, they dont look integrated, some shadow and color fade can fix it .

one question, how do ya assualt the Black sea ? and maby hold all 10 cities seems a little tough

Good work, encourage to keep goin :)
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:11 pm

I like the changes you've made so far, but the city on Crete is Heraklion not Rhodes.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:43 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:I like the changes you've made so far, but the city on Crete is Heraklion not Rhodes.

Thanks. The Rhodes/Heraklion issue has been brought up, it will be changed.

Flapcake wrote:Looking better, still some work to do ;)

The font you using, I like it realy much, fits the theme, but the drop shadow destroys the true design, its to sharp/strong and close, try just to have plain, if a effect are needed, outer glow wont have a huge impact on the font design, some times less is more.

Hmm, I can try the font without any drop shadow, but it will look exactly like the font in the legend. Perhaps I could try lowering the opacity of the shadow even more, or adding more space in between the actual font and the shadow. Or I can try an outer glow. Anybody else have thoughts on this?


Flapcake wrote:the outer glow on border to the sea are certainly worth working on, suggestion make the transition more soft and wider, to give the effect that the sea are hitting the coast line.

OK, I can work on it.


Flapcake wrote:army cirkles are not realy needed, they seems to cluttering up, maby only used for the sea, I dont know :-k

My main reason for having the army circles right now was to make sure all of the army numbers would fit. I figure if the army circle will fit, then the army numbers will fit as well. I can remove them if they just make it look cluttered.


Flapcake wrote:(have to comment :mrgreen: sorry) the mountain ranges are not bad, they just seems to "float" on top of the image, they dont look integrated, some shadow and color fade can fix it .

Haha, yeah, they look like crap. They're going to be completely redrawn eventually, so I'm not too worried about them "floating" since these particular mountains will be gone.


Flapcake wrote:one question, how do ya assualt the Black sea ? and maby hold all 10 cities seems a little tough

As of now, the Black Sea can be assaulted by and assaults all bordering land territories. This can be changed if enough people think it should be. So far only one person has expressed concern about having it as a killer neutral that assaults and is assaulted by so many territories. Does anybody else agree that it should be changed? One thought on how to change it is to make it so that it can only be assaulted by and only assault territories that border it that also have a city in it, or perhaps the cities directly. I don't know. Just throwing out an idea.

Flapcake wrote:Good work, encourage to keep goin :)

Thanks.


Unfortunately, I'm going to have to abandon this for a while. I'm leaving CC within the next few days. I don't know how long I'll be gone, it could be 6 months, it could be a couple of years. It's not exactly voluntary, so there's not much I can do about it.

I fully intend on working on this when I do get back.

I don't know exactly how this will be handled, since this doesn't have any stamps yet. Will it stay here in the drafting room, or will it be moved to abandoned?

I would prefer that nobody else take this up, since I really would like to work on it when I get back. But, it does seem to be a popular concept, so I guess if an established mapmaker really wants to take it up, then they can do so. I guess it's whatever at this point.

Sorry guys, I know I have a terrible track record on making maps, and this just makes it worse. But like I said, I fully intend on making this map once I get back, assuming nobody else has picked it up.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby The Bison King on Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:42 am

Hey alright. This is looking pretty cool.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:03 pm

tkr4lf, great start to this map. Lets see if you can take it all the way as I like it and it is showing great signs of promise.

A few things that might make this one a lot better though....
Can we have a mini map of the bonuses. The numbers on the map are kind of distracting and hard to see.
Legend needs finishing of. :roll:
The ten cities around the black sea, is there a way of making these ten stand out? With the extra 5 on the map, people will ask why they did not win when holding 9 + 1 of those.
Why is the Black sea a killer neutral? What is so dangerous about this sea? Might be better to see a decay instead, what are your thoughts?

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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:12 am

The Bison King wrote:Hey alright. This is looking pretty cool.

Thanks.

koontz1973 wrote:tkr4lf, great start to this map. Lets see if you can take it all the way as I like it and it is showing great signs of promise.

A few things that might make this one a lot better though....
Can we have a mini map of the bonuses. The numbers on the map are kind of distracting and hard to see.
Legend needs finishing of. :roll:
The ten cities around the black sea, is there a way of making these ten stand out? With the extra 5 on the map, people will ask why they did not win when holding 9 + 1 of those.
Why is the Black sea a killer neutral? What is so dangerous about this sea? Might be better to see a decay instead, what are your thoughts?

koontz

Thanks.

I had planned on differentiating between the victory condition cities and normal cities graphically. I had also planned to try to make a mini map of the bonuses.

As for the Black Sea being a killer neutral, it was suggested earlier in the thread and I really liked the idea. I don't really have a thematic reason for it, it just seems like a good gameplay addition.




But, I'll repost it here, because I think perhaps it was missed:


Unfortunately, I'm going to have to abandon this for a while. I'm leaving CC within the next few weeks. I don't know how long I'll be gone, it could be 6 months, it could be a couple of years. It's not exactly voluntary, so there's not much I can do about it.

I fully intend on working on this when I do get back.

I don't know exactly how this will be handled, since this doesn't have any stamps yet. Will it stay here in the drafting room, or will it be moved to abandoned?

I would prefer that nobody else take this up, since I really would like to work on it when I get back. But, it does seem to be a popular concept, so I guess if an established mapmaker really wants to take it up, then they can do so. I guess it's whatever at this point.

Sorry guys, I know I have a terrible track record on making maps, and this just makes it worse. But like I said, I fully intend on making this map once I get back, assuming nobody else has picked it up.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:18 am

Thanks tkr4lf. Sorry to see you go. Can move it back when you get back.

[Moved]

The development of this map has been put on hold as the map maker cannot continue.

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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby tkr4lf on Thu May 31, 2012 11:16 pm

I'm back around, so I'd like to start on this again. What do I need to do to get this moved back into the drafting room? Just let me know and I'll work on it. Thanks.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:52 pm

tkr4lf wrote:I'm back around, so I'd like to start on this again. What do I need to do to get this moved back into the drafting room? Just let me know and I'll work on it. Thanks.

Usually showing some progress in the form of a new draft is appreciated I think.


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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:31 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:I'm back around, so I'd like to start on this again. What do I need to do to get this moved back into the drafting room? Just let me know and I'll work on it. Thanks.

Usually showing some progress in the form of a new draft is appreciated I think.


--Andy

Thanks, koontz said the same thing. I'll have one up in a bit.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby The Bison King on Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:24 pm

Happy to see this is still being worked on. I think it's a good idea.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:49 am

The Bison King wrote:Happy to see this is still being worked on. I think it's a good idea.

...Agreed!


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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:58 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
The Bison King wrote:Happy to see this is still being worked on. I think it's a good idea.

...Agreed!


--Andy

Thanks for the support, guys. I will post an update when I can. Right now I just can't seem to make myself work on it. Plus, I'm somewhat busy trying to find employment. It's nice to have a source of income.

It wont be anytime within the next couple of weeks since my nephews are coming to visit, and they are both bringing their Xbox's, so I will be busy playing Red Dead Redemption. And honestly, who want's to work on a map when they could be lassoing hookers and dragging them onto train tracks?
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 am

Also, I never got much feedback about the placement of the impassables.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? Do they look ok where they are?

I know that's more of a gameplay discussion, but I'd like to have them relatively set before the draft is finished.
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:30 am

tkr4lf wrote:Also, I never got much feedback about the placement of the impassables.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? Do they look ok where they are?

I know that's more of a gameplay discussion, but I'd like to have them relatively set before the draft is finished.


Placement currently creates a lot of bottlenecks (that is if the Black Sea doesn't come into play a lot). Additionally, it looks like most of the bonus zones have similar number of borders, around 2-3 (again, that is if the Black Sea doesn't come into play a lot).


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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:42 am

With the impassables, do three things. Remove all of the ones you have now. ;) Look at a real map and see if it can be copied. :mrgreen: Lastly, think of it as a player. One of the things I did for Rorke's Drift was look at my favourite map (World 2.1) and see how that is laid out. A lot of territs you go on to have multiple attacks, only one bottleneck but it also makes players choose there route. "Which way to go?" can create many options for attacks. That is the best advice. Would you like to play on this map with this many impassables on it?
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:06 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:Also, I never got much feedback about the placement of the impassables.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? Do they look ok where they are?

I know that's more of a gameplay discussion, but I'd like to have them relatively set before the draft is finished.


Placement currently creates a lot of bottlenecks (that is if the Black Sea doesn't come into play a lot). Additionally, it looks like most of the bonus zones have similar number of borders, around 2-3 (again, that is if the Black Sea doesn't come into play a lot).


--Andy

True, I guess it does depend on the if the black sea is used or not. Speaking of which, I was thinking keeping the killer neutral a low number to encourage its use, somewhere around 2-4, thoughts on that?

When counting how many borders each area had, I counted all the territories lining the black sea as well, since they can technically be attacked, assuming one goes through the black sea first. With that in mind, border territory counts are as follows:

Greece: 4
Macedonia: 1
Serbia: 2
Bulgaria: 5
Romania: 5
Moldova: 1
Ukraine: 5
Russia: 5
Georgia: 3
Northeast Turkey: 3
Northwest Turkey: 6
Southwest Turkey: 4
Republic of Cyprus: 1

So I guess my reasoning for creating so many bottlenecks was to make it easier to hold the bonus areas, since without these particular impassables, there would be many more border territories to defend. Of course, they can be moved around to achieve the same effect, without causing so many bottlenecks, if that is so desired.


koontz1973 wrote:With the impassables, do three things. Remove all of the ones you have now. ;) Look at a real map and see if it can be copied. :mrgreen: Lastly, think of it as a player. One of the things I did for Rorke's Drift was look at my favourite map (World 2.1) and see how that is laid out. A lot of territs you go on to have multiple attacks, only one bottleneck but it also makes players choose there route. "Which way to go?" can create many options for attacks. That is the best advice. Would you like to play on this map with this many impassables on it?


As a player, yes and no. No because I do see how there are too many bottlenecks and how that can lead to stale gameplay, but yes because the way they are structured makes the bonus areas much easier to actually obtain and hold than without them. But as I said above, I can move them around to make it less bottleneck-y and more open, but still make the zones easier to hold, not to mention keeping the bonus troops down to a reasonable level (some of them are still pretty high, but try running the numbers through the bonus calculator spreadsheet without the impassables...you end up with some of them netting +12 troops or some other crazy high number).

But I see where you are coming from, so when I start working on this again, I will see what I can do about the impassables. I can look at a real map and see what I can copy, what makes sense where, etc. But, I guess the main thing to keep in mind is, openness of gameplay?




One more question: Do you guys think there should be another connection for Republic of Cyprus? As it is, there is only one territory that can attack it, and it leads to only one place, Southwestern Turkey. I could add in a sea route to the Greek Isles or to (what is falsely labelled as) Crete. Or does it seem ok as is?
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Re: The Black Sea [April 2nd] V.3, Pg. 1 & 3

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:26 pm

tkr4lf wrote:One more question: Do you guys think there should be another connection for Republic of Cyprus? As it is, there is only one territory that can attack it, and it leads to only one place, Southwestern Turkey. I could add in a sea route to the Greek Isles or to (what is falsely labelled as) Crete. Or does it seem ok as is?

I think some dead ends are alright, but I'll defer to those who dig into gameplay more.


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