Map Concept

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Map Concept

Postby ljex on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:44 pm

Map Name: Unknown, welcome to any suggestions both for this and all categories listed below.
Mapmaker(s):Ljex - Game-Play and Victor Sullivan Graphics/XML
Number of Territories:Estimate of around 200
Special Features:
1) Collection Bonuses/Strategic Resources
2) Win Condition
3) Negative Bonus
4) Losing Condition
5) Ranged Attack (possibly)

What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: I think it could be new and different, a combination of concepts from some already created maps in a new way. I would certainly be the first map with this style of game play, and i personally think it would be interesting to develop and then eventually play.

Map Image:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Keep in mind this is probably the worst draft of a map ever, but im more curious what people think of the gameplay and what can be added, changed, removed to make the map better.


Basic Thoughts so far.

So essentially the starting regions are around the edges of the map. In the center of this would be the win condition, having no regions but your bonus determining region would be the loss condition. Then there would also be the bonus multipliers, they could vary and be different but but im figuring something like double the bonus for your collection bonus or something like that. The negative bonuses wold be something like -5 to an opponents deploy (not 100% sure if this is possible, though if it is maybe we could create a work around. If not i guess we will just have to do without)
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:45 pm

So my questions to everyone are

1) do you think the solid colored regions should be able to be attacked/attack and be part of the game or do you think they should be out of the game and solely used to make different people go for different bonuses throughout the game.

2) how would you suggest separating the colored regions?
a) random
b) even spacing
c) groups
d) groups on outside/random as you get closer to the middle
e) other

3) do you think it would be useful to include ranged attack territories in the center area of the map

4) if yes to the above do you think they should (select as many as apply)
a) be used for bombarding or attacking
b) range?
c) provide a bonus
d) provide an auto deploy
e) other

5) As for the bonuses themselves, how many of each color do you think there should be? Then what bonus structure would you suggest based on that number.
ex. for 20 regions

3 --> 1
7 --> 3
11 --> 6
14 --> 9
17 --> 14
20 --> 20

6) How do you think the bonus structure should work
Option 1 do you think that the starting regions determining bonuses should be dual color so each player has 2 different colors they can go for.
Ex for colors A, B, C, D, E

AB/AC/AD/AE/BC/BD/BE/CD/CE/DE

If you like this way would you suggest 5 colors with 10 combinations or 6 colors with 15 combinations.

Option 2 8 colors, each player has their own color (would make the map need to be big or a smaller bonus structure)

Option 3 4-6 colors (2 starting regions of each color) and people may have to fight over the same colors in certain games which im not to big a fan of

7) Is there anything else that you can think of that should be added to this. I personally play mostly team games, 1 vs 1 games, and 8 man escalating games. So I'm thinking of this from the perspective of interesting games on those settings. Is there anything that would make this better for other settings without damaging the game-play of the above mentioned games.

Overall, this is my first ever experience with the map foundry...i just thought this would be an interesting map to try and get developed so i would appreciate any and all help you guys can give me.

Im sure i missed some stuff i intended to say and repeated myself at times so sorry for that.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:21 pm

[Moved]

Sorry, but this map does not meet the minimum requirements to be in the drafting room. More than happy to put it back into the drafting room as soon as these four are met. ;)

    Territory names
    Working legends
    Speculative Bonuses
    Tentative Border Divisions

Good luck.

koontz.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:28 pm

koontz1973 wrote:[Moved]

Sorry, but this map does not meet the minimum requirements to be in the drafting room. More than happy to put it back into the drafting room as soon as these four are met. ;)

    Territory names
    Working legends
    Speculative Bonuses
    Tentative Border Divisions

Good luck.

koontz.


Im sorry, first time working int the foundry...didnt know that i had put it in the wrong place.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:34 pm

ljex wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:[Moved]

Sorry, but this map does not meet the minimum requirements to be in the drafting room. More than happy to put it back into the drafting room as soon as these four are met. ;)

    Territory names
    Working legends
    Speculative Bonuses
    Tentative Border Divisions

Good luck.

koontz.


Im sorry, first time working int the foundry...didnt know that i had put it in the wrong place.


Not a problem. These things happen. glad to see some new faces here and look forward to your next draft.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:35 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
ljex wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:[Moved]

Sorry, but this map does not meet the minimum requirements to be in the drafting room. More than happy to put it back into the drafting room as soon as these four are met. ;)

    Territory names
    Working legends
    Speculative Bonuses
    Tentative Border Divisions

Good luck.

koontz.


Im sorry, first time working int the foundry...didnt know that i had put it in the wrong place.


Not a problem. These things happen. glad to see some new faces here and look forward to your next draft.


Im more looking into the gameplay of the map, sully will be doing the graphics.

Do you have any suggestions based on the questions posted above?
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:38 am

This is what I get from your first draft. You all start in the outside of the map like Oasis. A 3 territ winning condition in the centre, again like oasis. Again like oasis, you have the islands (brown blobs). These may or may not work like oasis but the deployment is very similar. I believe from what I see is this - hold an island and a certain amount of coloured territs to get a bonus, without the brown blob, you get nothing. You have no solid colours on the map so the bottom part of the image has no meaning. But I believe you mean these to be impassable - correct?

To go forward, try a couple of things. Leave out the colours for now and get a good drawing of the territ regions done. When this is done, post that image. Only add the colour to the starting territs and islands. These will give a far better understanding to what you want in way of outlineing the GP.

Adding ranged attacks can work but as this is yours and sullys first map, leave it out. Better to go simple first time. When you get to the game play section, you can raise it again.

Without a proper image, looking at bonus numbers are irrelevant for now.

GL.

koontz
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:14 am

koontz1973 wrote:This is what I get from your first draft. You all start in the outside of the map like Oasis. A 3 territ winning condition in the centre, again like oasis. Again like oasis, you have the islands (brown blobs). These may or may not work like oasis but the deployment is very similar. I believe from what I see is this - hold an island and a certain amount of coloured territs to get a bonus, without the brown blob, you get nothing. You have no solid colours on the map so the bottom part of the image has no meaning. But I believe you mean these to be impassable - correct?

To go forward, try a couple of things. Leave out the colours for now and get a good drawing of the territ regions done. When this is done, post that image. Only add the colour to the starting territs and islands. These will give a far better understanding to what you want in way of outlineing the GP.

Adding ranged attacks can work but as this is yours and sullys first map, leave it out. Better to go simple first time. When you get to the game play section, you can raise it again.

Without a proper image, looking at bonus numbers are irrelevant for now.

GL.

koontz


I can see how it looks similar to oasis as the basic structure of region layout is similar, but i can assure you that the game play will be completely different due to the bonus structure.

While i understand it may be normal for map makers to post a more accurate image of the final map in the forum, i am merely seeking the advice for game play before i design a map that someone else will do the graphics on. As they have kindly agreed to help me on the graphics, something that i have no idea how to do. In this respect, i want to add as little work as possible to their job by ironing out a more solid idea before passing it over to them to do the graphics.

As for some of your concerns,

1) There are solid colored regions, they are located on the top right of the map, but as the legend says they can neither be attacked or attack, they are only there to create different bonuses for different players.
2) Like you said the brown blobs will only add to an already existing bonus that is you are receiving 4 troops for holding x red regions, holding the brown blob gives you a bonus of half that number of troops or something so you get 6 instead. There could also be a few different types of brown blobs that give different types of bonuses.
3) The brown blobs also represent negative bonuses, which im still not sure how they work. Is there a way to make a negative bonus where if i hold region x you get a negative troop deployment of some sort?
4) There will be no impassible just a matter of do the regions connect or not
5) While this may be my first map, it is the only map idea that i have had that i felt worth putting my time into making. If i am going to dedicate lots of time making a map i want it to be something that im going to enjoy playing. I usually enjoy complicated maps so that is why i would like to design one that way.

Thank you for the comments, i will be sure to take them into consideration
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:50 am

The solid coloured regions, if they cannot be attacked or attack, how does a player get them? Are they starting positions?

So the brown blobs are a multiplier. This is a nice idea.
Negative bonus regions are easy to work out.
So if I hold red region I get +4, with the red regions brown blob +6, but if I hold the green regions brown blob, I would get nothing.
Region connection is also nice but harder to get gameplay worked out. Really think about your layout here.
As for an idea, it really is a great one and I do hope you do it, but as I said before, the first one is always the hardest.

Take what I say how ever you want, I really hope his works out as already you have explained a good game play.

Your brown blobs, have a think about this. A blob is surrounded by a number of territs.
Red blob has 5 territs surrounding it. Red bonus regions give + 5, have the blob at 10 neutrals to give the +8.
Then change the number of territs surrounding the other blobs.
Green - 3
Yellow - 4
Purple - 6

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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:54 am

koontz1973 wrote:The solid coloured regions, if they cannot be attacked or attack, how does a player get them? Are they starting positions?

So the brown blobs are a multiplier. This is a nice idea.
Negative bonus regions are easy to work out.
So if I hold red region I get +4, with the red regions brown blob +6, but if I hold the green regions brown blob, I would get nothing.
Region connection is also nice but harder to get gameplay worked out. Really think about your layout here.
As for an idea, it really is a great one and I do hope you do it, but as I said before, the first one is always the hardest.

Take what I say how ever you want, I really hope his works out as already you have explained a good game play.

Your brown blobs, have a think about this. A blob is surrounded by a number of territs.
Red blob has 5 territs surrounding it. Red bonus regions give + 5, have the blob at 10 neutrals to give the +8.
Then change the number of territs surrounding the other blobs.
Green - 3
Yellow - 4
Purple - 6

koontz.


Yes the solid colored regions would be starting positions

I dont get the last part of your statement, with the regions connections and stuff like that. Is that a hypothetical situation or based on a specific point in the map?
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:11 am

Image
To make it clearer, lets use Oasis as the example. ;)

Oasis of Liberity is one of your brown blobs. It has 6 territs that surround it. So hold those 6 and get a bonus of 5. Hold the OofL as well to double the bonus. :D
But if you hold those same six territs and Oasis of Power you lose all of your bonus. :(

You can get the bonus back if you capture OofL. :P

The three Grand Oasis are your winning condition.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:23 am

koontz1973 wrote:Image
To make it clearer, lets use Oasis as the example. ;)

Oasis of Liberity is one of your brown blobs. It has 6 territs that surround it. So hold those 6 and get a bonus of 5. Hold the OofL as well to double the bonus. :D
But if you hold those same six territs and Oasis of Power you lose all of your bonus. :(

You can get the bonus back if you capture OofL. :P

The three Grand Oasis are your winning condition.


Ah, i understand now though i was thinking of the map differently. It is mostly my fault though, i was thinking it would be better to have separate bonus multiplier/negator regions and that the negator regions would cause your opponent to lose troops on their deploy in some way. If that is not possible then the way you explain it could work well if done right.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:45 am

You cannot have a territ that makes your opponent lose troops. Thats the bad news. :(
But you can have the blobs away from the bonus region. Thats the good news. :)
With the blobs away, you can make the bonus regions any size, with any amount of borders you like.

Another way of doing it would be like my rorkes drift map. No bonus till the chieftain is taken. Then you can have say 10 red regions with a bonus given as long as you hold any 5.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:59 am

koontz1973 wrote:You cannot have a territ that makes your opponent lose troops. Thats the bad news. :(
But you can have the blobs away from the bonus region. Thats the good news. :)
With the blobs away, you can make the bonus regions any size, with any amount of borders you like.

Another way of doing it would be like my rorkes drift map. No bonus till the chieftain is taken. Then you can have say 10 red regions with a bonus given as long as you hold any 5.


well i know you can do the bonus's the way i want as they are done that way in supermax for the gangs. I'm not sure if we are on the same page there, it is going to be that the solid color regions are like a gang leader and once you get the required number of colored regions you start to get a bonus. So there would be 20 red regions around the map, and 5 of them gets you 3 troops but 8 gets you 5 and then it keeps going up in some way where all 20 gets you a lot of troops. The bonus multiplier, will only act to increase the bonus you already have, could be something like bonus x 2 or bonus x1.5 or something like that. The question for that is would you want to make holding more than one of them stack or simply act the same way as the first. I also dont know the specifics on what the site allows in that regard.

as far as the negative bonuses, i think your way of having the brown blobs be both bonus multipliers and negators would be cool...would make it that you take them thinking they are positive but they can then become a negative very quickly which should add an interesting strategy to people taking them/defending them. With that setup though, you might have to make a way for people to bombard them, or it could possibly create unbalanced game-play. Something that will have to be considered heading into the future.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:47 pm

The supermax multiplier can be done easily, if I get you correctly, you want more than one [gang leader] so you can get a bonus and then a super bonus. That can be done for any level or amount and is a good idea.

Negative bonuses can be done lots of ways. Hold a territ gain a bonus - hold another territ and lose that bonus or more. This has been done on another map already.
You can also have a bonus for a territ while it also decays. Forcing players to either use that bonus to keep the leader or attack. That would also solve the problem of stacking.

Put it this way, if it has been done on a map before, you can do it again. If not, it cannot be done.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:55 pm

koontz1973 wrote:The supermax multiplier can be done easily, if I get you correctly, you want more than one [gang leader] so you can get a bonus and then a super bonus. That can be done for any level or amount and is a good idea.

Negative bonuses can be done lots of ways. Hold a territ gain a bonus - hold another territ and lose that bonus or more. This has been done on another map already.
You can also have a bonus for a territ while it also decays. Forcing players to either use that bonus to keep the leader or attack. That would also solve the problem of stacking.

Put it this way, if it has been done on a map before, you can do it again. If not, it cannot be done.


what map are you referring to for the negative bonus?

Interesting concept about the decay, will have to think about that.

Generally i don't find stacking to be a problem though that is more than likely due to the style of games i play.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby DiM on Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:05 pm

ljex wrote:what map are you referring to for the negative bonus?


steamworks has negative bonuses
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:16 pm

DiM wrote:
ljex wrote:what map are you referring to for the negative bonus?


steamworks has negative bonuses


there are a bunch of maps with negative bonuses, i was asking which one specifically he was referring to
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:21 pm

Off the top of my head last night, could not think of one that had a negative bonus. But you have plenty to plan with now. Hows another image coming?
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:34 am

koontz1973 wrote:Off the top of my head last night, could not think of one that had a negative bonus. But you have plenty to plan with now. Hows another image coming?


okay, i thought you were talking about a specific map.

I know maps like supermax have one though it is never used in team games

Anyway as for the design of the map, today i worked on sketching a draft however i had to stop due to the fact that i didnt have colored pencils and didnt have anything else to do but place the colored regions. Once i color in the regions, i will scan it and send it to sully to get working on a draft to post here. I can also post it here to get some further comments.

I did also add a new element to the map which i think might need to be altered slightly, basically it is a region that has a few features
3 troop auto deploy
attack colored territories within a range of 2
bombard regular territories within a range of 5
you must control 2 regions of the same color or lowered deploy of 5 (that number is not set yet, and was hoping for this to be a conditional killer neutral effect but unfortunately i learned that is not available with the current xml)

There are 6 of them within the middle of the map and all edge territories are able to be hit by at least one of these with bombardments (most of them only from one). Anyway, i think these might be a little too powerful for certain game types but i think they should be useful in team games which will be a tough balance to find. They are 2 regions removed from any possible regions a player could start with so that makes them somewhat less powerful and i was figuring they should start as a neutral 3 or 4. Anyway i was also toying around with the idea that they can assault others of them within a range of 4 meaning that each of them would connect to 2 others but im not sure if that would make them way to powerful which it might.

I still have a few small details to iron out though i hope to be able to post the next draft by tomorrow or Saturday sometime. I will probably be done by tomorrow evening, its just a matter of having time to go to my school library to scan it and then be able to upload the image online.

After that i will need to start coming up with names for regions, how to people generally do that for a map like this that is not based on anywhere in the world?
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:40 am

Some nice features there to play with. Just remember, all features will need to be explained some way in the legend.

Lets see your scan as well please.
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Re: Map Concept

Postby ljex on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:45 am

koontz1973 wrote:Some nice features there to play with. Just remember, all features will need to be explained some way in the legend.

Lets see your scan as well please.


Yeah it may be hard to explain some things in the legend, it will probably require broad names for different types of regions but we will cross that bridge when we get there.

I plan to post the scan here as well, i though i said that but i did have to rewrite my entire post...internet crashed :(

Also how do people usually come up with names for territories on maps like this that aren't based on real location?
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Re: Map Concept

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:59 am

Names are the easy part. You can go down the A1 A2 B1 B2 route for now as it makes understanding the map so much easier and will allow followers of the map to suggest changes a lot easier. Later, you can call them what ever you want.
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