[Vacation valid until Aug. 2014] Ziggurat

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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [01/12] Pg1

Postby generalhead on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:24 pm

Hey jonofperu, just wanted to say hi. Not to be a nag, just wondering how you are doing. If you need anything don't forget to ask.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [01/12] Pg1

Postby swimmerdude99 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:15 am

This looks freaking cool.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [01/12] Pg1

Postby jonofperu on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:03 pm

Thanks for all the support, feedback and patience guys...

Here's an update. It's definitely a draft - very unfinished. But I've tried to represent some graphical elements and gameplay concepts that I need feedback on.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Changes:
1. Eliminated level A and replaced it with camps as starting points which one-way assault the pyramid and cannot be attacked - only bombarded from the summit.
2. Gave the A level camps ability to bombard up to level D. That should help to break through the neutrals with the auto-deploy on camps. (the concept is slings, arrows, etc)
3. Reworked the graphics for stone walls and stairs on lower and right sides. Pay particular attention to the lower right corner. Worked on graphics for stone paths on each level with grass growing between the stones.
*Will apply these graphics to the rest of the ziggurat eventually.

Concept-theme issues:
1. This could be an Inca theme. I could name the camps around different Incas or notable warriors. Actually one of the inspirations of this map graphically is the Inca fortress of Sacsayhuaman (guess how the tour guides love to pronounce it!).
2. Or, since it is a kind of cross between Aztec and Inca architecture the theme could be "what if the ancient powers of the Americas had clashed..." Each side of the pyramid could be a different force: Inca, Aztec, Maya, Conquistadores. Would have to represent each graphically with their own weapons & dress, etc.
3. I'm thinking of creating an altar or temple to the sun on the summit with the idea that whoever controls it can bombard the camps - religious influence allows them to dominate the other powers... Not entirely clear on the plot yet.

Gameplay issues:
1. The core concept in this map is high-ground. The best way I've come up with to reflect the tactical advantage of high ground is the combination of bombardment and auto-deploy. There have been conflicting opinions on this one as well as on the neutrals up the pyramid.
2. What do you think of giving the camps bombardment UP the pyramid? Is seems a bit contrary to the original concept, but may provide balance and speed things up.
I probably need to clarify this in the map legend: A10 can bombard B13-19, C09-13, D05-07.

There are probably some other things I'm forgetting, but I want to get this update out there and hear the feedback. Please discuss/debate! :D
(And I forget who suggested some of the things I implemented in this update, but thank you!)
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [20/12] Pg2

Postby nicarus on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:48 pm

i would get rid of the gray spots at the bottom of the stairs on the top and left sides and make them green instead. :)
what if the ground camps could only bombard the d level, help to keep the enemy from reaching the summit. could make for an interesting play in trench setting.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [20/12] Pg2

Postby generalhead on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:44 pm

I don't understand why Do6 can attack C11 and B16 if the wall is there.
are the walls only decorative?

I am not to sure about the concept of the camps being able to attack only D platform because of arrows. If they were shooting arrows they would be able to hit B C and D on their side.
Maybe we can think of something else.

This is an idea and might not be a good one but what if the from the summit there was another window with a hierarchy of Gods with each God being able to attack a different level down the pyramid. Then the highest one could attack the camps. Maybe from the camps they could either attack or bombard their perspective God. Just a crazy idea but it might give you something to think about.

The Christmas map might be something to look at to due to that is kind of like a pyramid map where you can attack up and then
attack back down on certain territories.

can you put a white background on your legends with the boxes for now they look a little bland and the green grass background is a little distracting.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [20/12] Pg2

Postby jonofperu on Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:54 pm

A quick minor update:
Click image to enlarge.
image


@nicarus

The grey spots are only there because I haven't applied the graphics update to the entire pyramid (due to how painstaking it is and I haven't yet had time).
Perhaps I should emphasize again that this is a very unfinished update, where I've tried some new things, but haven't applied them to the whole map yet. Partly I want to make sure of the gameplay/layout before perfecting the graphics.

@generalhead

Good catch on the D06 example. I had missed that - fixed now. The walls do not prevent bombarding down, but DO prevent attacks in either direction.
This is actually one of the reasons I'm uncertain about giving the camps bombardment UP the pyramid. The parapet walls should protect the people on the pyramid, while allowing them to fire down. Of course you can always shoot arrows at a castle, but your % of effectiveness is going to be way lower than the castle defenders shooting at you. No idea how to represent that though, so perhaps it's OK to let bombards go both ways.

I clarified the legend a bit. The idea is that the camps can bombard UP TO level D on their side, not ONLY level D. As I said in the previous post:
"A10 can bombard B13-19, C09-13, D05-07."

The idea of an inset for the summit with a hierarchy of gods or something is interesting, we'll see how it would play without it and maybe there is enough there as it is.

Added a white background to see what it looks like. I haven't worried too much about the overall look as that will have to be polished after getting the gameplay worked out.

New Topic:
I'm liking the idea of making it an ancient Peru map. Have Incas, Nazcas, Chimú, whatever pre-Inca civilizations around the pyramid.
Of course then I would have to change the name to Sacsayhuaman... which is cool, but I like Ziggurat. ;)
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [20/12] Pg2

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:00 am

jonofperu, you do not really need the army circles. Turn that layer of incase you need them later. As for the camps around the outside, how about some tents or huts (what ever is suitable). I am liking the green on the slabs though. Any chance you can give the individual parts different greys.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [20/12] Pg2

Postby jonofperu on Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:46 am

I'll take a look at it without the circles.
I foresee a lot more graphics work creating the camps with figures, etc. Have to decide if it's Incas, Aztecs, who?
Good call on color variation for the stones. Can do.

I guess right now I'd like to know:
1. Will the gameplay will work as described now?
2. How do some of the graphical elements I've created look? (before applying them to the rest of the map)
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [20/12] Pg2

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:11 am

Gameplay, you will need to wait and discuss that with the GP boys, but right now, it seems to work. They will let you know bonuses, neutral values etc.

Graphics, so far so good. It seems to blend into each other nicely. Some things to consider though would be to reduce contrast on the map itself to fit better with the background. Stone is not shiny, but shiny enough to show the map of. jpegs are an easy option. The large image of the wall is fine, but remove the man unless you draw him yourself to fit the rest of the graphics. Give your legend a better background than white. And place all the elements of it together.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 Pg2

Postby jonofperu on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:59 pm

Happy new year!
Whew! Got the update in before the year was over. :lol:
This map feels like I'm laying individual stones for an entire Inca fortress! haha

Version 5
Click image to enlarge.
image


Changes:
Designed stonework for levels (still need to apply it to the rest of the pyramid - very painstaking/time consuming.
Got rid of the circles (mostly, still have to apply to the rest)
Unified the legend
Some other graphics improvements/designs.

TO DO:
Graphics
Finish creating stonework on levels.
Create unique patters on stone walls (so far it's the same pattern copied on all the walls).
Draw "camps", etc. Possibly create bridges from camps to ziggurat.
Create figures, etc in camps... this could be a major time issue since I'm not really an artist.
Finish drawing unique symbols in the legend border.

Gameplay
Define levels of neutrals/autodeploy.
Confirm bombardment scheme for camps & summit.
Possibly implement multiple summit territories - could be an inset.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby jonofperu on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:06 am

P.S. Just realized i'm 15 pixels too wide. Shouldn't be a problem to make it small enough without applying for supersize unless I get carried away with rivers, valleys and bridges all around the zig...
PPS I'm leaving a little extra room on top and left for now until I can draw in the camps.

One concept to explain one-way attacks from camps to the ziggurat is hanging bridges or even small wooden ones that can be easily destroyed if attacked. The Incas actually used these a lot (even at Machu Picchu). Might be tough to draw though. Here's an idea:
Image

I also forgot to mention I've been playing with shadows. Not sure if it's worth the work, but you can see them at the bottom of the ziggurat.
Image

OR is shading the bottom side of everything a little darker sufficient - as on the rest of the map?

And one more thing... I think I'll get rid of the white stroke around the region numbers (some have it some don't) - it doesn't seem necessary.
Last edited by jonofperu on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:22 am

Loving the update. Early morning here so let me get a good look later.
These two are a must have. River and bridges look really nice, but the shading will need to go on.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby generalhead on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:23 am

Great work jonofperu, coming along nicely.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby jonofperu on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:50 am

Here are some images that inspired the design of the map:

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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby nicarus on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:55 am

do you have to hold your camp to survive, like middle ages and antarctic map?
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby jonofperu on Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:54 pm

It might be worth implementing that, nicarus. It might speed up endgame a little, but like Antarctica, if you lose your bases/camps it's probably over already. Not necessarily on this map though with all the autodeploy and potential bonuses (have yet to post some of those ideas).
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:47 am

Lose a camp, your out, good idea. The camps can only be attacked though once you reach the summit and not before. Change it from Antarctica to not have the summit bombard the camps.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby jonofperu on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:34 pm

Still working on the update. Have been traveling and swamped with work. Got a few more sections of stonework done on the plane before my battery ran down. Laying stones is very time consuming work. :-p
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby x-raider on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:38 pm

Looking forward...
;)
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [31/12] V5 P2

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:07 am

[Moved]

Moved to ideas as an update has not been made in a month. If the map maker wishes to continue with this, he can by making an update and contacting one of the cartographers.

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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/02/21] V6 P3

Postby jonofperu on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:44 am

Update - Draft v06
Click image to enlarge.
image


1. Finished stonework on the ground of each level. (whew! I don't even want to try to count how many stones I drew :sick: )
2. Got rid of all the army circles as they were. Now I'm just using a glow - although it's more of a circle at the camps for lack of other images/design for those.
3. Used a smaller font and shrunk the text in the legend. Included the examples within the legend and made the whole map a bit smaller due to saved space.

TO DO:
1. Add shadows
Only the shadow along the bottom edge has been created so far, but it gives an idea of what it will look like.
2. Draw camps
Not sure what to do here yet. It would probably take me months to draw a river canyon all around the ziggurat with hanging bridges across it from the camps to the entry points, but yeah - it would be cool.
Should probably at least do something more interesting with the camps.
3. Randomize the stone walls - make each unique.
4. Maybe add examples of bombardment from the camps against the ziggurat and from the pinnacle against the camps?
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/02/21] V6 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:06 am

Must say, very nice. Will have a proper look a little later for you.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/02/21] V6 P3

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:11 am

I'm looking at the map and I have a small question.
I see camps have colors on them, so I think that it's the way you will match together the camps into a 8 players game, right?. How it will work with less players? Are these camps starting positions or they are given out randomly (like in feudal war) ? If they are SP, there's a max position limit?
I have understood how the map will work and it seems interesting, but I want to understand 100% the starting drop.

Thanks in advance for your answer :)
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/02/21] V6 P3

Postby jonofperu on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:19 am

Yes, the colors on the camps represent starting spots.
Thus far my concept was simply that players would randomly be assigned to camps (however many players there are).
I'm not sure what options are available when coding, but if - as your comment implies - you can code a max number of starting spots, that might be a good thing to balance first turn advantage. On the other hand, with all the neutrals and protected starting spots it may be better to spread players across all starting spots (8 each 1v1, 5 each 3 player, 4 each 2v2, 2 each 3v3 or 4v4, etc). Strategy comes in when you have to decide whether to hit the neutral first turn since it will expose you to a counter attack by your opponent. You get to go first, but you weaken yourself attacking neutrals and your opponent gets to attack/bombard you directly. Remember the camps bombard their side of the ziggurat.

You will want to look for spots where you (and your team if it's teams) can capture and hold positions in spite of potential counterattacks or bombardment from camps. Randomized starting spots might give one player/team a pyramid side entirely to themselves. This is perhaps the most dangerous unbalanced drop. If each team has it's own side that's fine, but if one side gets a side to itself they could run away with the game. You can attack around the corners, but I'm thinking of the bombardment advantage from the auto-deploy starting points. Perhaps I could code a max number of starting spots per side? I that possible? Particularly for teams - can you limit a team to maximum 3 starting spots per side? (Although, as mentioned below, the auto-deploy on the ziggurat can overcome the auto-deploy on the camps. The issue is imbalance at the start.)

Probably you will want to conquer a neutral where your teammate(s) (or your other starting spots) can reinforce you in order to withstand the bombardment attacks the enemy will make against you before your next turn. If you manage to hold a spot, then you will have auto-deploy on it and can bombard the next spot you want to take to soften it up. As you take more spaces on a side of the ziggurat auto-deploy will soon protect you from bombardments. The enemy's starting spot gets +3, but once you hold three territs with +1 and two territs with +2 you will leave him in the dust. HOWEVER the way to counter this is to focus bombardment on the font line territ. Unless it's unlimited reinforcements it will take people a long time to get autodeploy troops up to the front. If you are expanding on another side of the ziggurat you may at least be able to keep your enemy contained on the side he's focusing on by bombing his front line. Of course the counter to this counter is to use autodeploy on the spots you have to expand in multiple directions. The more front lines you have the less vulnerable you are to bombardment.

This is another unique feature of the map. I don't recall another map covered in auto-deploys. I guess we'll see how it plays (or how you guys think it will play).
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/02/21] V6 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:30 am

Coding starting positions is an easy thing to do. I would suggest you think about randomly deploying on all starting camps but place a max of 2 or 3. This way, in fog games, you do not know where the opponent is or when you will meet them. Just like Antarctica. jonofperu, lastly, you need to get out their and advertise this map. Without community support, you are not going further. Lets see if players want this map, I know I do.
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