Conquer Club

QWERTY Keyboard - Brand New Design [vacation]

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Should this map be forged?

 
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Postby whitestazn88 on Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:20 am

Tieryn wrote:
whitestazn88 wrote:i think the conquer key should have the ability to bombard, and you should change esc and backspace/delete to something like alcatraz in the san fran map.. maybe? i dunno, just throwing shit out there


I've had thoughts along this way, certainly for the Escape key. (or the No Escape key?) "Escapeless" maybe :P

Logically, it's delete and backspace that can "delete" keystrokes, which is what I'd analogise bombarding too.

Maybe the conquer key could just have some bonuses?

Or perhaps the winning objective could be forming some word, (including capitalisation or shift) and perhaps some number combination - to make it long and not easily achievable... and the Conquer key.

The only function it serves is to finish the game, it starts full of neutrals, people wouldn't go for it unless they had the word, and when they had the word, everyone would be trying to stop them...

thoughts on this idea? I think this could be a map where objectives are important... Perhaps there could be several possible winning objectives (to make the game more interesting), I'd be thinking perhaps an 8 or 9 unique letter word, the shift key, three numbers (arbitrary... would like to justify this somehow) and then the conquer key.

2 Shifts or capslock would have 3 possibilities that way.

So you'd have to get

[large # of letters from lots of possibles]
----------[one of three caps]---------------
--------------[CONQUER]------------------

Or instead of including numbers in the words.. that could be its own objective...

(territories to win/74)
Objective 1) - Hold "Conquer Club" (10 letters), + a Shift, + Conquer (12/74)
Objective 2) - Hold any single row + Conquer
{` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = backspace conquer} (15/74) or
{tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] \ conquer} (15/74) or
{capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' conquer} (13/74) or
{shift z x c v b n m , . / shift conquer} (13/74) or
{Esc F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 F9 F10 F11 F12} (14/74)

The massive interconnectedness makes this less easy that it might initially look. 12/74 is a hard lot to get.

To make it so you couldn't start with a win, and obviously... you start with a blank document. Everything is 1/random/varied neutrals to begin with, except conquer which is more, and the starting points are Start, Start, Alt, Alt, Ctrl, Ctrl, Tab, Del. 8 starting locations.

This will definately increase gameplay possibilities and remove the "insta-win" condition.


if the conquer key was part of the objective, i think that this map is too bonus-loaded for it to ever be used.
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Postby Tieryn on Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:44 am

I'm not certain how one relates to another there.

I certainly agree that it's too bonus-loaded at the moment, and I'm going to hugely cut back on them.

Ignoring the bonuses, as they can all be changed as necessary, what do you think of the idea of having objectives?
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Postby fireedud on Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:42 am

the bonus Conquer Club + shift + conquer key is only 11 keys.

I think you should make the word ambidextrously-The longest word without any repeating letters and Conquer key. That would be 15 right there. With shift making it 16. The hardest combination.
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Postby oaktown on Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:47 pm

haven't read the entire thread, but i wanted to pop my head in and comment based on the map/first post. If my concern has already been discussed, my apologies.

My initial reaction is that with so many bonuses, there is an extremely high likelihood that players are going to start with a bunch of bonuses. Let's say I'm playing a standard six player game, so I start with 12 territories. There are dozens of combinations that could give me a big first move... why just having F, O, X and Alt gives me +5 to add to the 4 armies I have to drop. That's a big advantage to begin the game.

Also, I find the colors extremely hard to distinguish.
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Postby Tieryn on Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:56 pm

Sorry, I forgot to add the "space" into the Conquer Club, making it 12 keys.

Oaktown, that's been noted and I'm going to completely re-do the bonus system... Just working on it now.
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Postby tenio on Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:38 pm

do we need to have an ending objective, just because its in the new XML?

I mean this map would do fine without an ending obj...
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Postby Tieryn on Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:05 am

True.. I suppose :P I'm easily sidetracked into new fancy things heh.

So you think that if I redid the bonuses to make them reasonable, remvoed the objective, and ignore the maths, that this could be reasonably playable?
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Postby tenio on Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:52 pm

just having the words as obj with the "extra keys" needed for some words would be fine
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Postby Tieryn on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:00 am

tenio wrote:just having the words as obj with the "extra keys" needed for some words would be fine


Sorry, can you clarify, as objectives or as bonuses?
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Postby Tieryn on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:02 am

Image

Bonuses Updated
Green Keys get incremental bonuses for holding them as shown.
Function Keys get +1 per turn.
Escape gets -2 per turn

I have re-adjusted the Key Shortcut bonuses to be more reasonable (I hope) and be on an incremental scale, to overcome the ease of holding multiple with few keys. Also, I hope this map can act as an educational tool in my campaign against the evil Mouse!

Have changed the words to make them all map-specific rather than random. Bonuses are calculated as-per below. Please check and comment.

Word (unique letters) SHORTCUT LETTERS (Keys non-shortcut) Extra
Conquer Club (9 letters) CERL (5+2 non-shortcut) Needs Space and Shift/Caps
+2 bonus for also holding Conquer Key
QWERTY (6 letters) ER (4+1 non-shortcut) Needs Shift/Capslock
ASDF JKL; (8 letters) ADFL (4+1 non-shortcut) Needs Shift/Capslock
keyboard (8 letters) EAR (5 non-shortcut)
backspace (7 letters) ACE (4 non-shortcut)
shift (5 letters) (5 non-shortcut)
control (6 letters) CNRL (2 non-shortcut)
alternate (8 letters) ALERN (3 non-shortcut)
delete (4 letters) DEL (1 non-shortcut)
start (4 letters) AR (2 non-shortcut)
caps lock (7 letters) CAL (4 non-shortcut)
tab (3 letters) A (2 non-shortcut)
escape (5 letters) ECA (2 non-shortcut)
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:25 pm

BTW - it is impossible to start with an objective - Lack has coded the randomiser to reload if that happens.

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Postby Tieryn on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:50 pm

That makes sense, but I've removed the objective component now. We're back to standard bonuses and territories, if a little jumbled.
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Postby Cherry pepsi? on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:20 pm

i love the keyboard idea just the colors and how it supose to look a computer chip is just confusing but i like the pensil and stuff but mabey if u change the coloring to a real computer color it would attract many other players


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Postby Tieryn on Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:34 am

Could you expand upon "real computer colour"? Are you talking about the red/green/blue's used to distinguish territories? What colours would you suggest... I'd be happy to try implement your suggestions, but I'm not sure what you're asking me to do...
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Postby CryWolf on Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:27 pm

I feel that this map is too open. I think you need to set up some impassable borders
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Postby Tieryn on Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:12 am

Previous versions had some impassables. Regardless of impassables, the fact that all keys on one hand can attack each other wouldn't change, unless people are drastically against that idea, but I thought/hoped people liked that idea. since the continents are not directly connected, but instead word/shortcut combo's, I thought the connections would actually improve gameplay.

Any impassables that were added were rather arbitrary, and didn't really contribute to gameplay. if you have any suggestions as where they might be added, logically, and how they would contribute to gameplay, please let me know :)
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Postby Tieryn on Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:07 am

Bump, need comment on where this needs to go from its current version?

I'm relatively happy with the bonus situation, although once I do up some XML and run a few simulations I'll be able to provide a few more insights into initial drop dynamics and gameplay.

On another note: You know what would be a really cool app? one that could simulate an entire game :P or second to that, a test server where we could actually -play- games on maps at a certain stage in the process and see how the gameplay goes (or does this happen to forged maps?)

Input and comment please people. Please be constructive.
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Postby whitestazn88 on Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:35 pm

i'm a fan of what you have so far.
considering i was one of the folks that pushed for all letters on one hand can attack each other, i still like that idea, especially as you said, the bonuses are more arbitrary than position.
i don't really like all the shortcut bonuses though, and i think its because i'm more of a 1v1 player. I just feel that a player could too easily start with a massive bonus.
this is also true of other maps though, so i'll let it go for now.
as for the colors... leave them as is, but maybe change the top part of the keyboard, like the area above the numbers and up. i don't particularly like the green with the circuitry. maybe you could go for the gray that's the rest of the background, and use paperclips or staples to show the connections. it would look more like a desk that way
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love the QWERTY idea

Postby laci_mae on Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:39 pm

I really like your idea, and you've obviously done lots of great, hard work on it.

I try to imagine what my first thought would be when I search for a map to start a new game. If I clicked on your map as is, I would haul ass to the next one. I like the keyboard set-up, but there is so much going on that I would be intimidated. Why? Because there are bonuses for a hundred different reasons and same color attackers and crazy colors coming from everywhere.

I understand that many players like more advanced maps with hard to achieve bonuses and non-traditional attack routes. However, to achieve mass appeal, something might have to give.

My suggestion, then, is to find a way to make it feel a little safer to attract beginning and middle level players. Lots of people have been saying things, though, without helpful ideas. So, here goes.

One thing you could do without sacrificing your creativity in game play is to remove some attack routes between the top row and main board.

Like this:
Esc to F1 and ~
F1 to Esc, 1, and F2
F2 to only F1 and F3
F3 to F2 and F4
F4 to F5 and 5
F5 to F4, F6, and 6
F6 to F5 and F7
F7 to F6 and F8
F8 to F7, F9, and 9
F9 to F8, F10, and 0
F10 to F9 and F11
F11 to F10 and F12
F12 to F11 and Back

Maybe this would be too much for you, but there might be a compromise in the middle somewhere. Good luck, and I'll check back in a few days.

Best,
Laci 8)
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Postby InkL0sed on Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:45 am

I really hate the word-bonus idea. That's just way too much to think about.
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Postby fumandomuerte on Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:04 am

I'm a few words fan.
The special combinations are enough with maybe some words like QWERTY, RISK, CONQUER, CLUB...
And like others say, too connections between the function Keys and the rest of the keyboard.
Since most of the bonuses are based on the fact of having the SHIFT/CAPS/CTRL/ALT and the START keys, maybe adding some to the F keys would be nice.

The graphics need to be worket a lot.

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Postby oaktown on Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:21 pm

Specific question: are there any starting neutrals? First post doesn't mention any, but with all of the territory bonuses it might be helpful to avoid lucky starts.

General concern: the poll put you just above 50% approval... 21 people like it, 16 people either want you to scrap it or completely redo it. And the fact that you had to bump your own post doesn't suggest it has a ton of support.

Of course, by saying this I may be setting off a wave of support and interest, which is fine by me! :wink:
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Postby gimil on Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:29 pm

A simple solution to lucky bonuses? Neutrals on all the vowels :)
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Postby Tieryn on Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:59 am

I was actually thinking perhaps neutral control/shift/alt keys as well... tho I'm unsure... Do you think this would be a good idea?

Secondly, could I get that poll ended so I could put a newer, simpler, yes/no/other poll up? :P (it must have been late at night when I did that poll).
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Postby edbeard on Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:50 am

send a PM to one of the cartography assistants to get the poll taken down
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