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Spain - Draft 2 <VACATION 4-7-09>

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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby oaktown on Wed May 20, 2009 11:10 pm

hey guys, I see there was a comment way back about how this map fails the 'original in theme' requirement... we do have an Iberian Peninsula map which - while different in that it includes Portugal - offers more or less what you're offering here: a classic gameplay map of contemporary Spain.

So, what to do? You can continue and make a somewhat redundant map (it wouldn't be the first at CC) or you can think about how to offer something that Iberia does not. Perhaps work some new element of Spanish society into the gameplay? Better yet maybe you could come up with a theme for the map, such as the Spanish Civil War? That would give you a specific time and historical perspective that would drive the gameplay and graphics.

Graphically, I find the direction of this map interesting but not very player-friendly. The work you've done on the colors and geography detract from the clarity of the borders and titles, and the impassables need some work. I'd recommend scaling things back for right now - less is more.

It's important to keep in mind that four-way border connections don't work. Does Caceres border Toledo? Badajoz and Ciudad Real?

And some of your borders are a bit narrow - the Cantabria and Pais Vasco will get lost on the small map.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Merker on Thu May 21, 2009 4:15 am

I'm thinking add some tourist sites, as actual visual pictures of the tourist site visible map. Unsure of their purpose I am, but it'll be discussed I Guess.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu May 21, 2009 6:45 am

The new map is impressive, but I've got a few comments...

1) Castilla la Mancha is a bit difficult to read... I don't know if its the graphics, but the borders seem to be a four corners border. I might just be that I can't read it.
2) I think you're going to have to make it more explicit where Valéncia does and does not connect because I found it confusing until I looked at it for a while.
3) Aragon and Cataluna seem like their border could use some clarification as well.
4) I like the graphics on this map, I love the color used, but I think the red around the impassables needs to be toned down quite a bit.
5) The border between Castilla la Mancha and Communidad Valéncia begins and ends. On second thought, looking at the rules again, I see why this is. I really think you should consider making Mercia part of another bonus because if its not self explanatory upon looking, then you're going to lose your players. I would assume your target audience is the players not interested in a complicated game, the Mercia connection kind of jeopardizes that and makes it more confusing than it needs to be.
6) The corner border between Alicante and Albacete needs to be clearer.
7) In Almeria, the lower impassable... why is that there?
8 ) Almeria/Grenada/Mercia/Albacete... the impassable makes it not a four corner border, but I think something needs to be done to make it more clear who's attacking who... maybe extend the impassable further along the Murcia/Albacete border?
9) The Anchors could afford to me a tad bigger and I would include a glow around them to make them stand out. I can see two, but shouldn't there be two more corresponding ones?
10) I would do either the anchor connection and put one on Mercia or cut the Anchors and do dotted connections, but not both.
11) I would try to make the border with Portugal a little more clear. It just kind of trails off there.
12) Galicia and Communidad Nord... I think that the border between these bonuses need to be more clear... i only just realized there was a separate bonus there.

Anyway, despite all my nitpicks, I really do love the color and feel of this map. I think with the above alterations made that the gameplay should be solid. I think it stands out better than Iberia and has more of a national flavor than Iberia. I think the color and vibrancy really go a long way to make this map stand out and be something exciting to play on. Personally, I don't like the Iberia map that much and think that it under-represents Spain and that the gameplay is more difficult to understand than need be. Is it redundant as Oaktown said, well, yes to an extent, but should it hold this map back, no I don't think so. Personally, i would steer away from the Spanish Civil War theme as then you've got to include parts of Morocco and the bonus structure would need severe alteration. I think it's quite good as a representative of modern Spain. As for adding in a special little extra bonus feature to distinguish it from Iberia, I'm kind of leaning towards don't do it. The map is heavily dependent on the geographical features of Spain, putting in litle icons would onl take away from that, i think.

Anyway, hope some of this helps. Best of luck with the progress.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby owenshooter on Thu May 21, 2009 6:53 am

oaktown wrote:Graphically, I find the direction of this map interesting but not very player-friendly. The work you've done on the colors and geography detract from the clarity of the borders and titles, and the impassables need some work. I'd recommend scaling things back for right now - less is more.

this is why i love oaktown... i was browsing this, catching up on the maps, and i was thinking the same thing when i stumbled upon his comment... the next update should be interesting, and i hope oaktowns suggestion is considered...-0
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby whitestazn88 on Thu May 21, 2009 12:01 pm

i think you need to make use of the empty space where portugal is right now... maybe move the legend from the bottom right corner to that area, then move canary islands over to the right
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Danyael on Thu May 21, 2009 12:51 pm

thats guess for the nit picks i see a what you mean helix and most of your nitpicks
and thanks for your input oaktown i forgot about moving the four corners around
as for making this not another fart in the wind im still working on different ideas on this and it will come in time I just want to make sure all other problems get looked after before i start putting mini toro stadiums or tourist trap

as said i'm working on it to day and the next update will be on its way
thanks to everyone for your nitpicks suggestions and concerns this help out alot
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 21, 2009 12:53 pm

I think, taking into account much of what was said earlier, especially Oaktown's points, will surely help.

Right now, you've a geographic map that is being seen as more of a repeat idea. A theme, as Oaktown points out, can do wonders to revolutionize an idea, and bring people on board. I look forward to seeing what you have for us next!


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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Merker on Thu May 21, 2009 6:33 pm

Note; I won't be available for the next 2 days.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby oaktown on Thu May 21, 2009 7:09 pm

Thematically, the Spanish Civil War has a lot to offer and would make for an entirely unique map. You could include Spanish Morocco, from which Franco invaded, and you could somehow work in foreign influences since the Germans and Soviets provided arms to the opposing sides. And there are a ton of maps for you to work from...

http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/maps/SpCW.html

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Graphically you could do some kind of Guernica thing... hell, if you guys don't make this map I might. It sounds like fun.
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Re: Spain - Draft V2

Postby MrBenn on Fri May 22, 2009 2:53 am

Danyael wrote:
MrBenn wrote:Adding the Spanish islands is a good start, as it will offer something subtley different. Most importantly though, will be to devleop some sort of theme... you say that you have enjoyed travelling around Spain - why not try to do some sort of "Spain visitor guide", or "Backpacking routes", or "tourist destinations", or pick up another theme that you could use to bring the map to life... These are just suggestions that might help to form your plans for future development ;-)

well since i have journals and road maps alike for the time i backpacked thru out spain i could incorperate this at ease and actually what has been going on in the back of my mind for months but it is merker idea so depends on what he wants
but yes this is what i want to gear towards

I just want to echo what has been said previously about developing the theme a bit more... there are plenty of things you could do, but as a guide I would suggest that the theme should influence the graphical style of the map, and not vice versa.

What you've got so far is good, but it doesn't float my goat. ;-)
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Danyael on Sat May 23, 2009 7:17 pm

oaktown wrote:Thematically, the Spanish Civil War has a lot to offer and would make for an entirely unique map. You could include Spanish Morocco, from which Franco invaded, and you could somehow work in foreign influences since the Germans and Soviets provided arms to the opposing sides. And there are a ton of maps for you to work from...

http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/maps/SpCW.html

Image

Graphically you could do some kind of Guernica thing... hell, if you guys don't make this map I might. It sounds like fun.

thanks thats a good idea but i thinking i am going to do the tourism thing
i have been working on a route version and i think i might go with that do to its less cluttered and easier to work with but i'll see when merker gets back

add to "TODO" list
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Merker on Sat May 23, 2009 8:58 pm

I like the idea of a tourist map myself.

But I wouldn't be bummed about the Spanish Civil War either, whatever is easier Danyael :).
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Incandenza on Sat May 23, 2009 9:10 pm

Seems like the civil war is an infinitely stronger theme than a tourist map.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Danyael on Sat May 23, 2009 9:38 pm

Incandenza wrote:Seems like the civil war is an infinitely stronger theme than a tourist map.


i agree as R*sk has a war/military theme, a civil war theme would work as you put it infinitely better. Thou I'm not a huge history buff i need to look a lot more into it then the little knowledge I learned traveling through out Spain

As said i have alot more know how on the tourist end so i don't think i could do a civil war justice. Oaktown look pretty stoked about the civil war idea and maybe doing it himself. i believe a war map would get a lot more plays then a tourist map but thats my opinion. So it makes me wonder i'll finish up the route look with the tourism spot and see what people think and if its not prefered then i could atempt the civil war approach or some one could take over the graphic reigns and if that's the case if you still wanted to used the texture i made i can send you a psd of it

but i'll keep working on the tourist idea and start researching the civil war
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Merker on Sat May 23, 2009 9:49 pm

Well goodluck with that Danyael.

As far as my understanding, Franco was supported by Italy and Germany and after the civil war was over Franco was with Nazi Germany but remained nuetral because of the damaged economy.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Danyael on Sat May 23, 2009 10:16 pm

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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <1&7>

Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue May 26, 2009 12:56 pm

Fix those names...among which:

Islas Baleares
Islas Canarias
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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <1&7>

Postby Danyael on Tue May 26, 2009 2:44 pm

Ruben Cassar wrote:Fix those names...among which:

Islas Baleares
Islas Canarias


will do
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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <1&7>

Postby lespaulstudio on Sat May 30, 2009 10:45 am

I like your map alot, and the idea of the Spanish civil war could be very interesting. Note the Iberia map, however. You'll want to make a map different than the same thing with better graphics. I do like your map alot though :D
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h

Postby Merker on Sat May 30, 2009 11:32 pm

I think it's Spanish Civil war :) .

I'll come up with a crappy mock-up as always, uh, ok Danyael?
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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <1&7>

Postby Danyael on Sat May 30, 2009 11:46 pm

sound good gives me something to go off of
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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <1&7>

Postby Merker on Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:23 pm

Danyael has gone on vacation, I guess I'll become the artist for now, unless someone thinks their up to it?
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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <VACATION 4-7-09>

Postby Alex ceu on Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:55 am

I agree with oaktree, you should focus on a map of spanish civil war cause its way too interesting than a tourist map, and its very different of Iberia map that already exists. Dont worry about the history classes or any information you could need because i think we can all help you.

As an spanish player im really looking foward to this map possibilities and i would recommend you a few thing weather or not civil war do not become part of your plans:

With a map of civil war you can bring at boar different kind of strategies and territories, that can be chosen between spanish civil war fases: http://usuarios.lycos.es/historiahispana/mapasgc.jpg.

Talking about specific changes i would suggest you to change actually are 3 points, i hope they are usefull:
-Zaragoza its misspelled (you wrote zaragosa)
-Its a lot more interesting making rivers as impassible borders specially the bigger ones: http://satiromarra.es/blog/wp-content/u ... a_rios.jpg
-i would highly recommend a graphical change cause now it looks very creepy (also mountains look like earthworms xD)

I highly apreciate your efforts guys
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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <VACATION 4-7-09>

Postby MrBenn on Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:16 pm

Vacationed at the request of the cartographer. When you're ready to go again, get an update posted and drop one of the Foundry Mods a PM ;-)
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Re: Spain - Draft 2 <VACATION 4-7-09>

Postby Merker on Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:40 pm

Alex ceu wrote:I agree with oaktree, you should focus on a map of spanish civil war cause its way too interesting than a tourist map, and its very different of Iberia map that already exists. Dont worry about the history classes or any information you could need because i think we can all help you.

As an spanish player im really looking foward to this map possibilities and i would recommend you a few thing weather or not civil war do not become part of your plans:

With a map of civil war you can bring at boar different kind of strategies and territories, that can be chosen between spanish civil war fases: http://usuarios.lycos.es/historiahispana/mapasgc.jpg.

Talking about specific changes i would suggest you to change actually are 3 points, i hope they are usefull:
-Zaragoza its misspelled (you wrote zaragosa)
-Its a lot more interesting making rivers as impassible borders specially the bigger ones: http://satiromarra.es/blog/wp-content/u ... a_rios.jpg
-i would highly recommend a graphical change cause now it looks very creepy (also mountains look like earthworms xD)

I highly apreciate your efforts guys


Well thanks Alex, I'll try to get on to it as soon as possible (just improving my gimp skills).
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