Spain - Draft 2 <VACATION 4-7-09>

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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat May 09, 2009 7:11 am

I 'm not agree about removing france and portugal...

But you can use this neutral spaces differently:

France zone, why not move the title on that zone? So you can fodify the legend (add width and reduce height)
portugal zone., try to use this one to place the canarian inset? (only a test, not complitely sure how it looks)
Finally try to increase the transparency of the waving zone names on the map.

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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Merker on Mon May 11, 2009 6:11 pm

Thanks TNBS80.


We'd really like more discussion, I think we got more when we were in the ideas and suggestions forum.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon May 11, 2009 10:56 pm

I'm interested to see what you've got in store for your next update, and I'll comment more on that...


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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Merker on Tue May 12, 2009 4:23 am

You've got a reservation Andy, hope to see you there :) .
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue May 12, 2009 5:14 am

Merker wrote:Thanks TNBS80.


We'd really like more discussion, I think we got more when we were in the ideas and suggestions forum.


Don't worry, you received a lot of feedback, now you have to do an update with your TO DO list things.
When people will see your next draft probably new suggestions/critics will come ;)

Have a nice day

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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby TaCktiX on Mon May 18, 2009 6:28 pm

Procrastination stinks. Anyways, let's have at this map.

Graphics
- I saw the artistic rendering of Spain before the continents and regions got added. It looked outright AWESOME. Right now that awesome is obscured by other colors that make it look like an optical illusion is being housed underneath the map as a gag. Go with a completely different way of denoting the bonus regions, as the full color overlay is detracting from what I think is the biggest lure for this map. Maybe army circles the color of the region, or an outlining in the color, but definitely bring out the art beneath.
- The constant waviness on naming the bonus regions, no. It makes it look like the entire map has been strung up on a flagpole and let fly. How am I supposed to put down my infantry piece when the entire thing could go flying everywhere? If possible, straighten them back out. The use of a different font is a good plus though, keep that to distinguish between regions and territories. (I am violating so many different CC rule conventions, I hope this is making sense)
- The impassables don't fit. Make them work more with the territory lines if they're purely artificial. Take a look at RjBeals' impassables from Brazil for some direction on that. If they AREN'T artificial (actual physical features between regions), spice it up with mountains and rivers.
- Come up with a new line to connect the Canaries with A Coruna. Think dotted line and/or a thicker less wavy one. The current one looks obviously drawn in haste. Also figure a better way to communicate that Mallorca connects to the Canaries, I missed it on first pass.
- I know we're NOT trying to feature Portugal (see: Iberia), but could we at least note what it is on the map?
- Whatever the black border on the coasts is, it's imperfect, as there's a smidge of Portugal that pokes out from under.
- The title looks lackluster, and the font reminds me of the Old West and not the Spanish Armada. A different choice and a more distinctive, set-apart title would do better.
- I don't think the impassables are necessary for delimiting Portugal and France from the map. The map is called Espana (make sure to get the tilde above the n), I doubt there will be confusion if people can't attack Southern France or Western Portugal.

Gameplay
- The legend needs work. A lot of it. Right now it's disorganized, and overall hard to read. Instead of alphabetical order, look into physical placement of continent order.
- The dark blue build-your-own bonus I don't think is necessary. Make it its own continent, as the current rules are confusing and unnecessary. You can name it in the sea, people will understand.

That's about all I can think of for right now, get to an update, stat, for you need to recover from getting
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Danyael on Tue May 19, 2009 1:16 pm

TaCktiX wrote:Procrastination stinks. Anyways, let's have at this map.

procasti is a favorite nation of mine but unfountunatly working one job and being on call 24/7 for another makes it tough to have more then an hour or so to work on this but i will have the next update by thursday
Graphics
- I saw the artistic rendering of Spain before the continents and regions got added. It looked outright AWESOME. Right now that awesome is obscured by other colors that make it look like an optical illusion is being housed underneath the map as a gag. Go with a completely different way of denoting the bonus regions, as the full color overlay is detracting from what I think is the biggest lure for this map. Maybe army circles the color of the region, or an outlining in the color, but definitely bring out the art beneath.

yes it was done with quite a bit of haste just so it would be up to the drafting room guidelines i'm playing with the layers so the texture is more prevalent cause i don't want it hidin
- The constant waviness on naming the bonus regions, no. It makes it look like the entire map has been strung up on a flagpole and let fly. How am I supposed to put down my infantry piece when the entire thing could go flying everywhere? If possible, straighten them back out. The use of a different font is a good plus though, keep that to distinguish between regions and territories. (I am violating so many different CC rule conventions, I hope this is making sense)

makes perfect sense i actually used the same font for every thing but the title name its the one merker wanted but i'll try other types and yes i'll loose the wavyness
- The impassables don't fit. Make them work more with the territory lines if they're purely artificial. Take a look at RjBeals' impassables from Brazil for some direction on that. If they AREN'T artificial (actual physical features between regions), spice it up with mountains and rivers.

as stated i'm working on them they will probably end up looking like the actual mountain ranges over lapping the borders so its not such and eye sore
- Come up with a new line to connect the Canaries with A Coruna. Think dotted line and/or a thicker less wavy one. The current one looks obviously drawn in haste. Also figure a better way to communicate that Mallorca connects to the Canaries, I missed it on first pass.

there will be port symbols for the long distance routes for clairity
- I know we're NOT trying to feature Portugal (see: Iberia), but could we at least note what it is on the map?
- Whatever the black border on the coasts is, it's imperfect, as there's a smidge of Portugal that pokes out from under.
- The title looks lackluster, and the font reminds me of the Old West and not the Spanish Armada. A different choice and a more distinctive, set-apart title would do better.

yes im going to add names to the oceans and non playable territs
the title is not going to look like that in the end but i have to disagree about it not looking spainish i have 14 different restaurant menus from spain that use that font so its why i used it for now but i'm looking for a better font as well it will most likely have flag colours with a few spainish items around it (bullfighter or tapas not sure what yet)
- I don't think the impassables are necessary for delimiting Portugal and France from the map. The map is called Espana (make sure to get the tilde above the n), I doubt there will be confusion if people can't attack Southern France or Western Portugal.

yes the impassables will be removed from those regions
and all the accents will be added as you may know there is more missing then just the one on espana

Gameplay
- The legend needs work. A lot of it. Right now it's disorganized, and overall hard to read. Instead of alphabetical order, look into physical placement of continent order.
- The dark blue build-your-own bonus I don't think is necessary. Make it its own continent, as the current rules are confusing and unnecessary. You can name it in the sea, people will understand.

yes legend will look alot better and is there just as a fill in for now
the area in the north will be a complete bonus as discussed earlier

i'll have it up by thursday i don't want to rush it because you see the quality drop but i'll have a solid update by this time then i want to go back to the goblin tribes map for that next update and then i'll be back to this one but when you work 60 or more hours a week i think you understand
thanks for the comments
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Godsav1 on Tue May 19, 2009 1:28 pm

Nice job! Looks like a sweet map to me. Cant wait to play it. :)
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Merker on Wed May 20, 2009 4:10 am

An update will be coming soon, I recently saw Danyaels work, it's very good, but I won't post it.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Danyael on Wed May 20, 2009 10:29 pm

Alright V2
Click image to enlarge.
image

changes
changed wavy text
fixed up crappy legend
made the layers proper
moved around some names and army O's
change region font is that ok?
added port symbols for long paths
made small paths dots
worked on impassables
added new title any thoughts?

to do
canary islands
make portugal border better
edit :: i'm working on this all day tomorrow so great comments would be awesome
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby oaktown on Wed May 20, 2009 11:10 pm

hey guys, I see there was a comment way back about how this map fails the 'original in theme' requirement... we do have an Iberian Peninsula map which - while different in that it includes Portugal - offers more or less what you're offering here: a classic gameplay map of contemporary Spain.

So, what to do? You can continue and make a somewhat redundant map (it wouldn't be the first at CC) or you can think about how to offer something that Iberia does not. Perhaps work some new element of Spanish society into the gameplay? Better yet maybe you could come up with a theme for the map, such as the Spanish Civil War? That would give you a specific time and historical perspective that would drive the gameplay and graphics.

Graphically, I find the direction of this map interesting but not very player-friendly. The work you've done on the colors and geography detract from the clarity of the borders and titles, and the impassables need some work. I'd recommend scaling things back for right now - less is more.

It's important to keep in mind that four-way border connections don't work. Does Caceres border Toledo? Badajoz and Ciudad Real?

And some of your borders are a bit narrow - the Cantabria and Pais Vasco will get lost on the small map.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Merker on Thu May 21, 2009 4:15 am

I'm thinking add some tourist sites, as actual visual pictures of the tourist site visible map. Unsure of their purpose I am, but it'll be discussed I Guess.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu May 21, 2009 6:45 am

The new map is impressive, but I've got a few comments...

1) Castilla la Mancha is a bit difficult to read... I don't know if its the graphics, but the borders seem to be a four corners border. I might just be that I can't read it.
2) I think you're going to have to make it more explicit where Valéncia does and does not connect because I found it confusing until I looked at it for a while.
3) Aragon and Cataluna seem like their border could use some clarification as well.
4) I like the graphics on this map, I love the color used, but I think the red around the impassables needs to be toned down quite a bit.
5) The border between Castilla la Mancha and Communidad Valéncia begins and ends. On second thought, looking at the rules again, I see why this is. I really think you should consider making Mercia part of another bonus because if its not self explanatory upon looking, then you're going to lose your players. I would assume your target audience is the players not interested in a complicated game, the Mercia connection kind of jeopardizes that and makes it more confusing than it needs to be.
6) The corner border between Alicante and Albacete needs to be clearer.
7) In Almeria, the lower impassable... why is that there?
8 ) Almeria/Grenada/Mercia/Albacete... the impassable makes it not a four corner border, but I think something needs to be done to make it more clear who's attacking who... maybe extend the impassable further along the Murcia/Albacete border?
9) The Anchors could afford to me a tad bigger and I would include a glow around them to make them stand out. I can see two, but shouldn't there be two more corresponding ones?
10) I would do either the anchor connection and put one on Mercia or cut the Anchors and do dotted connections, but not both.
11) I would try to make the border with Portugal a little more clear. It just kind of trails off there.
12) Galicia and Communidad Nord... I think that the border between these bonuses need to be more clear... i only just realized there was a separate bonus there.

Anyway, despite all my nitpicks, I really do love the color and feel of this map. I think with the above alterations made that the gameplay should be solid. I think it stands out better than Iberia and has more of a national flavor than Iberia. I think the color and vibrancy really go a long way to make this map stand out and be something exciting to play on. Personally, I don't like the Iberia map that much and think that it under-represents Spain and that the gameplay is more difficult to understand than need be. Is it redundant as Oaktown said, well, yes to an extent, but should it hold this map back, no I don't think so. Personally, i would steer away from the Spanish Civil War theme as then you've got to include parts of Morocco and the bonus structure would need severe alteration. I think it's quite good as a representative of modern Spain. As for adding in a special little extra bonus feature to distinguish it from Iberia, I'm kind of leaning towards don't do it. The map is heavily dependent on the geographical features of Spain, putting in litle icons would onl take away from that, i think.

Anyway, hope some of this helps. Best of luck with the progress.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby owenshooter on Thu May 21, 2009 6:53 am

oaktown wrote:Graphically, I find the direction of this map interesting but not very player-friendly. The work you've done on the colors and geography detract from the clarity of the borders and titles, and the impassables need some work. I'd recommend scaling things back for right now - less is more.

this is why i love oaktown... i was browsing this, catching up on the maps, and i was thinking the same thing when i stumbled upon his comment... the next update should be interesting, and i hope oaktowns suggestion is considered...-0
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby whitestazn88 on Thu May 21, 2009 12:01 pm

i think you need to make use of the empty space where portugal is right now... maybe move the legend from the bottom right corner to that area, then move canary islands over to the right
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby Danyael on Thu May 21, 2009 12:51 pm

thats guess for the nit picks i see a what you mean helix and most of your nitpicks
and thanks for your input oaktown i forgot about moving the four corners around
as for making this not another fart in the wind im still working on different ideas on this and it will come in time I just want to make sure all other problems get looked after before i start putting mini toro stadiums or tourist trap

as said i'm working on it to day and the next update will be on its way
thanks to everyone for your nitpicks suggestions and concerns this help out alot
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&6>

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 21, 2009 12:53 pm

I think, taking into account much of what was said earlier, especially Oaktown's points, will surely help.

Right now, you've a geographic map that is being seen as more of a repeat idea. A theme, as Oaktown points out, can do wonders to revolutionize an idea, and bring people on board. I look forward to seeing what you have for us next!


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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Merker on Thu May 21, 2009 6:33 pm

Note; I won't be available for the next 2 days.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby oaktown on Thu May 21, 2009 7:09 pm

Thematically, the Spanish Civil War has a lot to offer and would make for an entirely unique map. You could include Spanish Morocco, from which Franco invaded, and you could somehow work in foreign influences since the Germans and Soviets provided arms to the opposing sides. And there are a ton of maps for you to work from...

http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/maps/SpCW.html

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Graphically you could do some kind of Guernica thing... hell, if you guys don't make this map I might. It sounds like fun.
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Re: Spain - Draft V2

Postby MrBenn on Fri May 22, 2009 2:53 am

Danyael wrote:
MrBenn wrote:Adding the Spanish islands is a good start, as it will offer something subtley different. Most importantly though, will be to devleop some sort of theme... you say that you have enjoyed travelling around Spain - why not try to do some sort of "Spain visitor guide", or "Backpacking routes", or "tourist destinations", or pick up another theme that you could use to bring the map to life... These are just suggestions that might help to form your plans for future development ;-)

well since i have journals and road maps alike for the time i backpacked thru out spain i could incorperate this at ease and actually what has been going on in the back of my mind for months but it is merker idea so depends on what he wants
but yes this is what i want to gear towards

I just want to echo what has been said previously about developing the theme a bit more... there are plenty of things you could do, but as a guide I would suggest that the theme should influence the graphical style of the map, and not vice versa.

What you've got so far is good, but it doesn't float my goat. ;-)
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Danyael on Sat May 23, 2009 7:17 pm

oaktown wrote:Thematically, the Spanish Civil War has a lot to offer and would make for an entirely unique map. You could include Spanish Morocco, from which Franco invaded, and you could somehow work in foreign influences since the Germans and Soviets provided arms to the opposing sides. And there are a ton of maps for you to work from...

http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/maps/SpCW.html

Image

Graphically you could do some kind of Guernica thing... hell, if you guys don't make this map I might. It sounds like fun.

thanks thats a good idea but i thinking i am going to do the tourism thing
i have been working on a route version and i think i might go with that do to its less cluttered and easier to work with but i'll see when merker gets back

add to "TODO" list
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Merker on Sat May 23, 2009 8:58 pm

I like the idea of a tourist map myself.

But I wouldn't be bummed about the Spanish Civil War either, whatever is easier Danyael :).
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Incandenza on Sat May 23, 2009 9:10 pm

Seems like the civil war is an infinitely stronger theme than a tourist map.
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Danyael on Sat May 23, 2009 9:38 pm

Incandenza wrote:Seems like the civil war is an infinitely stronger theme than a tourist map.


i agree as R*sk has a war/military theme, a civil war theme would work as you put it infinitely better. Thou I'm not a huge history buff i need to look a lot more into it then the little knowledge I learned traveling through out Spain

As said i have alot more know how on the tourist end so i don't think i could do a civil war justice. Oaktown look pretty stoked about the civil war idea and maybe doing it himself. i believe a war map would get a lot more plays then a tourist map but thats my opinion. So it makes me wonder i'll finish up the route look with the tourism spot and see what people think and if its not prefered then i could atempt the civil war approach or some one could take over the graphic reigns and if that's the case if you still wanted to used the texture i made i can send you a psd of it

but i'll keep working on the tourist idea and start researching the civil war
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Re: Spain - Draft 1 <1&7>

Postby Merker on Sat May 23, 2009 9:49 pm

Well goodluck with that Danyael.

As far as my understanding, Franco was supported by Italy and Germany and after the civil war was over Franco was with Nazi Germany but remained nuetral because of the damaged economy.
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