New "Intensity Cubes"

Archival storage for Announcements. Peruse old Announcements here!

Moderators: Global Moderators, Community Team, Media Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Night Strike on Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:17 pm

bedub1 wrote:
carlpgoodrich wrote:I agree that using a PRNG pick a number between 1 and 6 gives PRNs, but that is not what we are doing, not at all. If you use a TRNG to generate a list of TRNs, and you want to read from this list, starting at the beginning is just as arbitrary as starting anywhere else. Hence using a PRNG to pick where we start does nothing to remove the "true" randomness of the list of TRNs.


I got it. So if you had a list of peoples names, and you used random.org in this fashion to get a persons name:

Q3.6: How do I pick one or more items from a list at random?

The easiest way to do this is to use the List Randomizer as follows:

1. Enter all your list items on separate lines in the List Randomizer and submit the form. This will produce a randomized list.
2. The item picked will be the first that appears on the randomized list. If you need to pick two items, use the first two from the randomized list, and so forth.
3. Discard the remaining items.

Then you get a truly random persons name.

But if you use a PRNG to pick a persons name, then you get a PR name. But you guys are saying it's still a name. But instead of us picking from a list of names, we pick from a list of TRUE random numbers. So even though we picked it Pseudo Randomly, it's still a persons name, or true random number?


I believe that's correct. Your use of the List Randomizer threw me off since we're generating a new list, not randomizing an existing one, but I think you stated the point.
Image
User avatar
Captain Night Strike
 
Posts: 8646
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm
Medals: 79
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (11) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (18)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby carlpgoodrich on Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:49 pm

bedub1 wrote:
carlpgoodrich wrote:I agree that using a PRNG pick a number between 1 and 6 gives PRNs, but that is not what we are doing, not at all. If you use a TRNG to generate a list of TRNs, and you want to read from this list, starting at the beginning is just as arbitrary as starting anywhere else. Hence using a PRNG to pick where we start does nothing to remove the "true" randomness of the list of TRNs.


I got it. So if you had a list of peoples names, and you used random.org in this fashion to get a persons name:

Q3.6: How do I pick one or more items from a list at random?

The easiest way to do this is to use the List Randomizer as follows:

1. Enter all your list items on separate lines in the List Randomizer and submit the form. This will produce a randomized list.
2. The item picked will be the first that appears on the randomized list. If you need to pick two items, use the first two from the randomized list, and so forth.
3. Discard the remaining items.

Then you get a truly random persons name.

But if you use a PRNG to pick a persons name, then you get a PR name. But you guys are saying it's still a name. But instead of us picking from a list of names, we pick from a list of TRUE random numbers. So even though we picked it Pseudo Randomly, it's still a persons name, or true random number?



YES! =D> Thats a really good example, I wish I had though of that... But yes, to my understanding that is correct. And since they are true random numbers, it doesn't matter if we read them sequentially or in some arbitrary fashion (like a PRNG).
Captain carlpgoodrich
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:12 pm
Medals: 16
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:57 pm

bedub1 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:At any rate, I ask you - even if it is pseudo-random, what's the problem? As long as it's close enough to true random that no one could feasibly hack the system, then it's completely irrelevant whether it's "truly" random.

Well if it's not "truly" random then why go to all the hassle and why not just run a PRNG locally? There has to be some open-source one that is considered "good enough" by the community.


I believe it is truly random; I'm just saying that there's no real use in even arguing that it's not, because the only people we need to deal with are the ones who actually think the dice are rigged in some way.

As for your list randomizer question: using a PRN to pick where to start on the list does not really change the nature of the problem. Doing so is equivalent to simply using the List Randomizer at a different time of the day, where you would get different results depending on which you called the program. As long as where you start on the list is consistent, then the result is still truly random, because it's completely arbitrary to say "pick the first number on the list, and discard the rest." The author could have also said "pick the 17th number on the list, and discard the rest." If the generated distribution is random, it doesn't matter where one starts on the list.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby wolfpack0530 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:46 am

I believe i have noticed a negative difference in the way the dice are behaving now vs 3 months ago. I am noticing that the dice now are alot more streaky, and quite lopsided with small samples (ie a 1v1 game, or any game for that matter).

I noticed streaks before of course, but now they seem to be super exaggerated and much longer than I remember. I can now, almost predict before i start my turn, what my dice will be. It seems that if you start with poor dice in a game, you tend to have poor dice for the remainder of the game with a few even or small + turns sprinkled in. Consequently, your opponenet will be experiencing + dice throughout the game.

I am getting ridiculous bad dice in some games and super-inhuman good dice in others *of course the bad dice games outnumber good dice games. Lately, i have had some amazing dice in some das schloss games. winning 40-5 vs neutrals over 15 regions. I have never seen that much of a disparity before, but it seems more common now. Just set a personal record with losing the first 9 rolls 0-2 vs neutral on Poland map in round 2. ended up going 2-24 that turn.

In the six man madness tourney: singles 6 player esc (and previously mapblasters 8 player esc) I witnessed and participated in many kill runs. Rarely would bad dice terribly effect these wins. In map blasters i think it happened to me like 2 or 3 times with over 30 successful runs. Same rate was happening with 6 player madness until recently. It now seems that almost every player is gettign stopped during the run with way worse than average dice. Kill runs are not even happeneing anymore. It is hte 4th player cleaningup the last guy after 3 unsuccessful kill runs. no offensive dice advantage whatsoever, infact quite the opposite.

I have 60-70 active games, and i normally would see 25v9 turn into 3 v 6 only a couple times during the entire course of those games. now i am not only seeing it, but seeing in the game chat that it is happening a couple times a day, not a couple times every 3 months.

If you took the time to read these ramblings, thank you. No i have no proof, screenshots, nor do i even want to take the time to look anything up. I just want to let those in charge, and in the community know that I personally , NOW think the dice effing suck compared to how they were before they were switched.

I dont use clicky maps, so i see the dice every turn. I have played 3800+ games and have logged into CC everyday for the past 20 months. Yes, everyday. I am saying I have noticed a difference, and i dont think they are random anymore. Are they still fair? maybe, but i am leaning towards yes in thelong run, but very unfair, or very overly fair in the short term.

It is getting much less fun knowing that I am going to have 1 or two great turns and 8 or 12 turns in a row where i lose 8-1, or my opponenet has beaten me 6-0 for the 5th round in a row, or that i know for a fact that my opponent has a 3 card rainbow in flat rate because of the 8 previous sets turned in that game (100%), all of them were 3 card rainbows!!!!

If this continues, I will not be renewing my premium for a 3rd year.

thanks for your time and consideration,
wolfpack0530
Captain wolfpack0530
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:23 am
Location: Shady Thickets, where it is warm and moist
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (12) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (18)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:35 am

wolfpack0530 wrote:I believe i have noticed a negative difference in the way the dice are behaving now vs 3 months ago. I am noticing that the dice now are alot more streaky, and quite lopsided with small samples (ie a 1v1 game, or any game for that matter).

I noticed streaks before of course, but now they seem to be super exaggerated and much longer than I remember. I can now, almost predict before i start my turn, what my dice will be. It seems that if you start with poor dice in a game, you tend to have poor dice for the remainder of the game with a few even or small + turns sprinkled in. Consequently, your opponenet will be experiencing + dice throughout the game.

I am getting ridiculous bad dice in some games and super-inhuman good dice in others *of course the bad dice games outnumber good dice games. Lately, i have had some amazing dice in some das schloss games. winning 40-5 vs neutrals over 15 regions. I have never seen that much of a disparity before, but it seems more common now. Just set a personal record with losing the first 9 rolls 0-2 vs neutral on Poland map in round 2. ended up going 2-24 that turn.

In the six man madness tourney: singles 6 player esc (and previously mapblasters 8 player esc) I witnessed and participated in many kill runs. Rarely would bad dice terribly effect these wins. In map blasters i think it happened to me like 2 or 3 times with over 30 successful runs. Same rate was happening with 6 player madness until recently. It now seems that almost every player is gettign stopped during the run with way worse than average dice. Kill runs are not even happeneing anymore. It is hte 4th player cleaningup the last guy after 3 unsuccessful kill runs. no offensive dice advantage whatsoever, infact quite the opposite.

I have 60-70 active games, and i normally would see 25v9 turn into 3 v 6 only a couple times during the entire course of those games. now i am not only seeing it, but seeing in the game chat that it is happening a couple times a day, not a couple times every 3 months.

If you took the time to read these ramblings, thank you. No i have no proof, screenshots, nor do i even want to take the time to look anything up. I just want to let those in charge, and in the community know that I personally , NOW think the dice effing suck compared to how they were before they were switched.

I dont use clicky maps, so i see the dice every turn. I have played 3800+ games and have logged into CC everyday for the past 20 months. Yes, everyday. I am saying I have noticed a difference, and i dont think they are random anymore. Are they still fair? maybe, but i am leaning towards yes in thelong run, but very unfair, or very overly fair in the short term.

It is getting much less fun knowing that I am going to have 1 or two great turns and 8 or 12 turns in a row where i lose 8-1, or my opponenet has beaten me 6-0 for the 5th round in a row, or that i know for a fact that my opponent has a 3 card rainbow in flat rate because of the 8 previous sets turned in that game (100%), all of them were 3 card rainbows!!!!

If this continues, I will not be renewing my premium for a 3rd year.

thanks for your time and consideration,
wolfpack0530


Would you like the dice to be fixed so you get positive streaks only?
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby wolfpack0530 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:05 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:n,
wolfpack0530


Would you like the dice to be fixed so you get positive streaks only?[/quote]


What good would that do? a positive streak for someone is a negative for the opponent. I am just pointing out an observation that I have made in only MY games, because i am not charting other players' games.

In a nutshell, I am saying that before the dice change, i would see crazy streaks that would amount to something like 3000:1 odds to pull off. But i would see those happen quite infrequently, like it was actually happening once every 3000 or so events. It seems like I or my opponents are pulling off 10,000:1 odds or 2000:1 odds moves almost daily.

It is frustrating, and i dont like it. Lets say you attack with an 8v2. odds calculator says your should win that 97% of the time. So to lose that attack is an rare event (only 3 times per 100 attempts roughly). So an even rarer event by a huge factor is losing 8v2 attacks in 4, 5, or 6 consecutive games. This event should only be witnessed bimonthly due to the fact that it just should not happen very often. But to see something this rare happening daily, makes me think something is out of balance with the dice.

Maybe i am wrong, and my brain only remembers theses events and selectively ignores everything else. So be it, it is just my observation, lack can do with it what he wishes. i think he has an awesome thing going here, but the RANDOMNESS needs to be paramount. that is one thing that cannot come into question. and for me, it is!!

Thanks for not being a smartass Metsfanmax.
Captain wolfpack0530
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:23 am
Location: Shady Thickets, where it is warm and moist
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (12) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (18)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby MNDuke on Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:29 pm

I hear and whole heartedly agree with Mr. Wolfenstein and have shared the exact same sentiments elsewhere. Perhaps this is the proper "forum" (pun totally intended) to air my fucking grievances.

How about the powers that be take my $25 and invest it in a worthwhile "random cube generator." The one they got is BS and I'm getting pretty tired of having to put up with its so called randomness. Seeing a guy lose 2 guys (I kid you not) in an entire game doesn't cry random to me, while I can't make the elimination on a 5v1 of his teammate to leverage the unbalance of the "cubes." Or starting off my first 4 turns of the day and going 3-19. Thank God I'm not a freemium or that would have been a waste of a day.

Is it really so much to ask for an investment be made into a dice generator that everyone can stand behind, or do I have to watch my "donation" go to making more cc shirts and merchandise. If this is the case, I might as well invest that $25 into jacking off. It's much worthwhile and gratifying than getting fucked in the ass repeatedly by cc. At the very least they could use my cash and stock up on some lube to ease the pain of this nasty penetration.

And I fucking dare you to get smart lipped with me. Just try it.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class MNDuke
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am
Location: Mom's Basement
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (16)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby carlpgoodrich on Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:36 pm

Can I suggest both of you download Dice Analyzer and Dice Streaks? If you are right, then this is something that needs to be taken very seriously, but no one can believe you unless you have numbers to back it up.
Captain carlpgoodrich
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:12 pm
Medals: 16
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby MNDuke on Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:53 pm

Already have dice streaks and it sucks looking at. My dice are literally so bad and improbable, that it crashes the add-on.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class MNDuke
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am
Location: Mom's Basement
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (16)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby wolfpack0530 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:44 am

carlpgoodrich wrote:Can I suggest both of you download Dice Analyzer and Dice Streaks? If you are right, then this is something that needs to be taken very seriously, but no one can believe you unless you have numbers to back it up.





Game 7430561

Dice analyze this goddamn abortion of a game. I cashed for 4, dropped like 11, and proceeded to kill almost 70 troups. i wish i had taken a screen shot. I started with 31 armies and dropped 11 with the 4 cash plus my bonus. I then killed:

-13 yellows over 4 regions
-8 blues in 1 region
-8 pink in 2 regions
-3 neutrals 1 region
-17 teals in 6 regions
-13 greens in 2 regions (i did this with a 6 stack 3 leftover)

I have 29 armies leftover and a middle set for 6. so i had 48 troups all day, and only lost 19. and the last 5 i lost were because i was desperately tryng to get an elimination and attacking 1v1, 2v1. So before those rolls, i was ahead 62 to 14 or something very close to that


This just happened today. This is what i mentioned in my earlier posts. I will get one of these games a day, and the rest will all be POOP!! SHIT!! CRAP!! whatever you want to call it (i must add however, that the team games I am involved in (about half of my games ) seem to be more even, unpredictable, and random)

But when you analyse my dice, I bet they turn out to be pretty even. Why, because i lose 7-1 in 10 straight games, and CC "makes it up to me" with a nice 70-10 win down the road. Or in a game when i am down 200 troups to 10, i auto attack that 200 with my 10 stack and knock like 65 off, which means nothing and is a total waste lol.

like i said earier, no proof, just messed up observations. and way too much 20/20 hindsight. still, something is not right!!!
Captain wolfpack0530
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:23 am
Location: Shady Thickets, where it is warm and moist
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (12) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (18)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby wolfpack0530 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:00 am

Just to show that this has been an ongoing problem for me (and not just me from what i gather) this is something i dug up in a game chat 10 days ago.

Game 7344695

2010-08-05 23:25:26 - wolfpack0530 [team]: same here. matching my 6s
2010-08-07 01:18:10 - wolfpack0530: nice job guys, but from our end, this dice bullshit is getting really old!! Pander and I were beating the best dubs teams on the site in the foxy & Bruce tourney,
2010-08-07 01:19:04 - wolfpack0530: then when lack changed the random dice algorithm, I have been seeing some really wierd shit. dice are staying hot or cold throughout an entire game
2010-08-07 01:19:35 - wolfpack0530: and not just turn to turn like before.
2010-08-07 01:20:14 - wolfpack0530: i cant count how many games lately pander and i have had game chats that are nothing but each other saying: 0-4
2010-08-07 01:20:52 - wolfpack0530: 0-6, 1-4, 0-4 0-5 all against a single
2010-08-07 01:22:22 - wolfpack0530: then i get my das scholss game up next and win 65 - 11 or something ungodly like that.
2010-08-07 01:23:09 - wolfpack0530 [team]: before i even took my turn i knew there was no way in hell i would win that 5v2. of course i did not
2010-08-07 08:28:11 - safariguy5: oh well, that's the breaks i guess
2010-08-07 12:00:52 - Pander88uk: the dice certainly seem stranger lately... i won 18-0 in a pelo game yesterday! I'm losing count of the amount of times 1v1 games end with "sorry about my dice" from either side haha
2010-08-07 12:01:29 - Pander88uk: but gg guys!
2010-08-08 15:04:24 - wolfpack0530: pander for wolf
2010-08-10 00:45:29 - wolfpack0530: back unfortunateluy
Captain wolfpack0530
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:23 am
Location: Shady Thickets, where it is warm and moist
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (12) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (18)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby carlpgoodrich on Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 am

wolfpack, what you are describing is a property of random dice... long losing streaks and long winning streaks happen on a regular basis. Unless you show statistics demonstrating that they happen more frequently than they statistically should, no one is going to take you seriously. (The dice streaks ad-on remembers streaks, not just total outcomes, so you're complaint should show up.) It seems to me like you want the outcomes of the game to be more dependent on skill and less dependent on luck (even if the luck is determined "correctly"). I suggest playing games like City Mogul where luck is less of a factor.
Captain carlpgoodrich
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:12 pm
Medals: 16
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby wolfpack0530 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:36 am

carlpgoodrich wrote:wolfpack, what you are describing is a property of random dice... long losing streaks and long winning streaks happen on a regular basis. Unless you show statistics demonstrating that they happen more frequently than they statistically should, no one is going to take you seriously. (The dice streaks ad-on remembers streaks, not just total outcomes, so you're complaint should show up.) It seems to me like you want the outcomes of the game to be more dependent on skill and less dependent on luck (even if the luck is determined "correctly"). I suggest playing games like City Mogul where luck is less of a factor.



Thanks carlp, I do understand exactly what you are saying, and trust me, i have been telling the exact same thing to other people for the last 18 months. In fact, when all my buddies used to complain about the streaks, I was one of the few that maintained that the dice WERE RANDOM, and these streaks inevitably happen at some point, to someone, and some time.

I cant run a dice analyzer because my comp. is already running super slow thanks to BOB, i even play half my turns without greasemonkey enabled because it is so unbareably slow on my home computer.

I am less interested in the specific outcomes. What i really want to see is the outliers, the improbables, the infintescimally small probablilities, to occur at their natural rate.

If an event (a dice streak) has, lets say, a .005% chance of happening, then i should not be seeing that event in back to back days, or hours , or games. I should see roughly 20,000 probable events happen before i see something like that again. Sure there are times when they will happen every 5000 events or 10,000, but there should also then be times when you dont see a streak in 30,000 or 50,000 events.

That is how it seemed before, now every firecracker that goes off on july 3rd is a grand finally.

Sometimes you go to safeway, and the cashier gives you back the wrong change and gives you too much money back. What if that happened every week to you, or every day, or 3 times in one day. you would think that is pretty freakin wierd. That is what my CC experience is like lately, and honestly, it seems like a joke now.

I dont really care if this gets investigated or changed, or i get taken 'seriously or not' . My purpose is not to threaten or cajoule. I am just taking time to communicate what I have noticed, and if it is deemed unimportant by the powers that be, so-be it. I do not expect them to change the whole site on account of me 'not finding this new system fun anymore'

I just want them to know that one of their loyal 2 year, 100% turn taken premiums, will be quitting the site because they have screwed up dice now imho. I think it is kindof a respectful thing to do, to let CC know the reasons i am leaving, and that i would have stayed had they not messed with something that seemingly worked well.

As far as the City Mogul thing goes?? That is a bit insulting, to suggest to someone who has played almost 4,000 games, basically every map, setting and style combination possible, to pigeon hole myself into such a narrow niche. I would rather slam my dick in a bible that just play one map, even though i love mogul.
Captain wolfpack0530
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:23 am
Location: Shady Thickets, where it is warm and moist
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (12) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (18)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:16 am

wolfpack0530 wrote:I am less interested in the specific outcomes. What i really want to see is the outliers, the improbables, the infintescimally small probablilities, to occur at their natural rate.


This is an unfortunate misunderstanding of the randomness of dice. If you accept the near-perfect randomness of any individual roll, then you can't say that the total result is in some way flawed, no matter what the outcome is. For all intents and purposes, every time you roll, an actual perfect die is being rolled. Therefore, to say that you want the outliers to "occur" at their natural rate is hopelessly meaningless, because you cannot control the outcome of a random process. One possible result of a random process is those streaks you mention. The system isn't flawed just because those happen sometimes. The only way you can say the system is flawed is if you believe that the dice aren't actually random. But it seems like you have mistaken "probability" with "certainty" when you say things like, something with a certain chance should only happen every so often. That's just not how it works. Let's say I flipped a coin 50 times in a row, and I got 45 heads and 5 tails. If I repeated the experiment 5 minutes later, your argument is akin to saying that in the new experiment, it should not be possible that I again get 45 heads. The flaw is that the results of the previous experiment have no bearing on the results of the current experiment.

It wouldn't matter if in every single game, you got sixes every single roll. If the process is random, the results are random, no matter what the results are. It's irrational to be upset simply because they worked for you, or against you.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Dako on Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:53 am

5v1 doesn't give you a fixed rate of 97% winning. This is a calculation. In a real word you know that each roll is random and is not being affected by previous rolls. So this 97% is made only for humans to understand the odds. It is not the rule for the random cubes to be followed. This is why trying to calculate an odd of failing to kill 5v1 as 1:3000 is an erroneous method. It is not 1:3000, it is random. Means you can kill it or you can loose. But more often you win it. But sometimes you loose. But not in 97% of the time you do win.
Image
User avatar
Brigadier Dako
 
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:07 am
Location: St. Petersburg, Russia
Medals: 117
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (14) General Achievement (24)
Clan Achievement (21) General Contribution (20)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby MNDuke on Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:18 pm

If the dice aren't fucking wrong I don't know what is. Here is a whole series from a tourney I'm in and the dice are horribly one sided. In one game, we are 4 rounds in, and I've managed to take a card once. In the sydney metro game, one of my teammates wasn't able to card in 4 rounds. Maybe I'm just a poor sport, but its hard to have sportmanship when you are being picked apart by so called random dice. What a joke. Someone needs to fix this shit soon or my money will be staying in my pocket and this opinion will be shared and expressed to anyone who will listen. I'm fucking fed up and tired of it. Is it so much to ask for a little fucking balance and fairness? I can understand one game where I may get bad dice or my teammates will as well, but it should not happen to this magnitude.

Game 7477808 - bullshit
Game 7477796 - bullshit
Game 7477801 - bullshit
Game 7477810 - bullshit
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class MNDuke
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am
Location: Mom's Basement
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (16)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby natty dread on Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:58 am

Random is random. Random is not fair, except in the sense that it is random to everyone.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class natty dread
 
Posts: 13324
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: just plain fucked
Medals: 49
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby MNDuke on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:29 pm

That would be true if I randomly had good luck. Losing a series like that is bull no matter how you slice it. My last 3 turns in the series I went 0-14. Last I checked that was the definition of random according to Websters. Oh wait, it's not! Your denial that there is anything wrong with the dice system is anything if not hilarious. Get real! Carding, now, 1 time in 5 rounds is random? My teammate not carding in 4 rounds is random? Having a 19v18 and it ending 2v5 is random? Going 0-6, 0-4, 0-4 on your last 3 turns is random? I don't know, that's starting to sound vaguely consistent if you ask me. Jesus Christ open you eyes already. The dice system is fucked up and needs to be changed. There is no reason for nonsense like this. Note this only one series. I'm not even crying about my other games yet. If you'd like I can give you the details of those. Would you like hear about going on a 9 game losing streak? Losing over 400 pts in a week? Dropping percentage pts on my winning pct? I can get into it if you'd like. Because this shit is pissing me off. I'm tired of getting randomly unlucky as you would call it. I strongly suggest you go open a dictionary and check the definitions of random and consistent and then get back to me before you start feeding me some more bullshit CC talking points. For Fucks Sake!
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class MNDuke
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am
Location: Mom's Basement
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (16)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:57 pm

MNDuke wrote:That would be true if I randomly had good luck.


Actually, that is completely false. If you have no understanding of the mathematical idea of randomness, then you really should not claim to be more knowledgeable than others on the subject. If a process is random, it is utterly meaningless to say that you expect certain results at any given time. That would imply some sort of determinism - and not randomness. You could roll a perfect die 1000 times and get a 1 every time - the results have no bearing on the randomness of the process.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby MNDuke on Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:13 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
MNDuke wrote:That would be true if I randomly had good luck.


Actually, that is completely false. If you have no understanding of the mathematical idea of randomness, then you really should not claim to be more knowledgeable than others on the subject. If a process is random, it is utterly meaningless to say that you expect certain results at any given time. That would imply some sort of determinism - and not randomness. You could roll a perfect die 1000 times and get a 1 every time - the results have no bearing on the randomness of the process.


Rolling perfect 1000 times is consistent not random. You tell me which definition rolling perfect 1000 times falls under?

Consistent - constantly adhering to the same principles, course, form, etc.
Random - proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern

My point is that I agree with wolf when he says the new system has created far streakier dice than before. If you'd like to say the dice are now randomly consistent, I can agree to that. But, if one is constantly getting good or bad dice, that defies the whole logic of random. If a pattern can be observed that is not random. That's what I am saying.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class MNDuke
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am
Location: Mom's Basement
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (16)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:37 pm

MNDuke wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
MNDuke wrote:That would be true if I randomly had good luck.


Actually, that is completely false. If you have no understanding of the mathematical idea of randomness, then you really should not claim to be more knowledgeable than others on the subject. If a process is random, it is utterly meaningless to say that you expect certain results at any given time. That would imply some sort of determinism - and not randomness. You could roll a perfect die 1000 times and get a 1 every time - the results have no bearing on the randomness of the process.


Rolling perfect 1000 times is consistent not random. You tell me which definition rolling perfect 1000 times falls under?

Consistent - constantly adhering to the same principles, course, form, etc.
Random - proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern

My point is that I agree with wolf when he says the new system has created far streakier dice than before. If you'd like to say the dice are now randomly consistent, I can agree to that. But, if one is constantly getting good or bad dice, that defies the whole logic of random. If a pattern can be observed that is not random. That's what I am saying.


What you're saying is completely nonsensical when it comes to the mathematical study of randomness. A set of results cannot be random or non-random. You cannot look at the sequence "124525231" and say "that result is non-random," and you cannot say "that result is random." It's just a completely meaningless thing to say. The fact that most of the numbers are on the lower end of the 1 to 6 scale is irrelevant. The results of any relatively small (less than tens of thousands of rolls) sample cannot be used as even weak evidence that the process is non-random. So you are quite incorrect in saying that it "defies the whole logic of random" to get constantly good or bad dice. The problem with your statement is that there simply is no "logic of random." The fact that you can roll a perfect die 1000 times and get a 1 every roll should be enough to convince you that a random process can indeed cause an uneven distribution of results.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby MNDuke on Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:48 pm

You once again have overlooked my point and failed to address my concerns and instead get hung up on semantics. Please review:

My point is that I agree with wolf when he says the new system has created far streakier dice than before. If you'd like to say the dice are now randomly consistent, I can agree to that. But, if one is constantly getting good or bad dice, that defies the whole logic of random. If a pattern can be observed that is not random. That's what I am saying.


My contention is that the dice never used to be this way.

Now the probability of rolling 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111...is astronomical.

I'm not sure why so steadfastly defend this system. If you honestly believe it so fucking great, I urge you to log in as me for a week and then try to hold the same tune. I understand your point, but you are wrong. The system is fucked, skewed and unbalanced. To say otherwise is just plain old foolish.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class MNDuke
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am
Location: Mom's Basement
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (16)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby MNDuke on Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:07 pm

From random.org "The randomness comes from atmospheric noise." Atmospheric noise and variation is used to generate high quality random numbers. Thus it cannot be guaranteed that the numbers are truly random as you are trying to claim. In the grand scheme of things, cc is relying on nothing more than an equation to come up with their dice rolls. Call me a skeptic and a cynic, but nature is full of patterns and consistency so why should one believe that atmospheric noise is any different? Granted it's better than any computer program that's out there, but not much.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class MNDuke
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am
Location: Mom's Basement
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (16)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby natty dread on Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:10 pm

Question: if the dice are rigged against you specifically how is it possible for you to maintain a rank of captain? Shouldn't you be a cook by now?
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class natty dread
 
Posts: 13324
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: just plain fucked
Medals: 49
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby natty dread on Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:24 pm

MNDuke wrote:From random.org "The randomness comes from atmospheric noise." Atmospheric noise and variation is used to generate high quality random numbers. Thus it cannot be guaranteed that the numbers are truly random as you are trying to claim. In the grand scheme of things, cc is relying on nothing more than an equation to come up with their dice rolls. Call me a skeptic and a cynic, but nature is full of patterns and consistency so why should one believe that atmospheric noise is any different? Granted it's better than any computer program that's out there, but not much.


Clearly you talk of a subject you have little understanding of.

Atmospheric noise is noise. Do you know what noise is? Let us start from defining what a signal is. A signal has frequency, amplitude and waveform. Frequency defines how many times a given waveform occurs in a given time. Amplitude defines the intensity of the waveform, ie. the difference between the high and low peaks of the waveform. Waveform is the shape of the wave function: it can be a sine curve, square, triangle, saw wave, or any combination of those. A noise signal is an irregular shape of waveform: within it only the frequency stays static, and the amplitude of any given sample is random. Ie. the signal has no definite shape, it keeps changing amplitude at random. The noise waveform is the most concrete example of random you can find in nature.

This noise signal is received and ran through an ADC which converts the signal into binary form. This gives a very reliable source of random numbers.

Random is unpredictable. You can apply probability to an random event but only when taken out of context of the previous random events, because the previous random events do not affect the outcome of the next random event. Thus the probability for a random event to get a certain result only applies before the event happens.

Lastly, it's a game. It involves luck. It's not the end of the world if you lose so get over it.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class natty dread
 
Posts: 13324
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: just plain fucked
Medals: 49
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

PreviousNext

Return to Announcement Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron
Login