New "Intensity Cubes"

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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby jammyjames on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:16 am

natty_dread wrote:
however true randomness will never be gotten on any computer or software program ... the design of a random generator has a human programming it to become random (its one of the first things you learn when you take a beginner's programming course)... which, as hard as they may try, it is still only a falsified rendition of true-randomness. the functionality of a computer only allows for people to manipulate the 0's and 1's ---- with enough manipulation it can be reasoned that a program generates "random" numbers ... but to be truly random you couldn't use a computer at all ...


Again... random.org numbers are NOT computer generated - they are picked up from atmospheric noise. How hard is it to understand?


All i think of is some out of space thing calling out "3, 4, 1, 2" :lol:
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby bigpash on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:11 am

Having read that has come before this, I can conclude that I am way out of my depth with what was said.

So in simple terms, before an attack do your troops still get intensity setting ie, a bunch of wimps or hard as nails?

If this is still true, it does not really matter how random the dice are.

If the intensity levels are removed, then the randomness of the dice is more important. This is why I think you get people bitching about the dice because they do not understand or forget that the armies receive intensity ratings before battle starts.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby natty dread on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:20 am

bigpash wrote:Having read that has come before this, I can conclude that I am way out of my depth with what was said.

So in simple terms, before an attack do your troops still get intensity setting ie, a bunch of wimps or hard as nails?

If this is still true, it does not really matter how random the dice are.


#-o
This has never been true. There is no extra values assigned on troops beside the dice rolls. The "intensity levels" simply refer to the numbers on the "intensity cubes".
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby bigpash on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:34 am

II. Assaulting Your Enemies

You may now assault any opponent's region from one of yours, as long as both regions are adjacent and your assaulting region has a minimum of two troops. This part is optional in that you may choose not to assault anyone.

Each time combat is initiated, the game engine will generate a random intensity cube for each troop involved. The outcome is determined by the intensity of the assaulting troops versus the intensity of the repelling troops. There are 6 possible intensity cubes that may be assigned, listed here from weakest to strongest:

1. Pathetic
2. Sad
3. Decent
4. Strong
5. Awesome
6. Heroic

The more troops involved on either side, the better the chances that side has of winning. But not all troops in the regions are necessarily involved. To be more specific, the game engine will assigned a random intensity cube for each assaulting troop, less 1 troop that stays behind, up to a maximum of 3 troops. Likewise, the game engine will assign a random intensity cube for each repelling troop, up to a maximum of 2 troops.

The outcome of combat is determined by comparing the strongest intensity cubes of either side. If the assault was stronger, then the repelling region loses a troop. If the repel was stronger or equal, than the assaulting region loses a troop. This process is repeated once more if other troops remain involved on both sides.

If you destroy all of the troops in your opponent's region, you will then have to occupy it right away by advancing some of your troops (but not all and at least 1) from your assaulting region to the conquered region. If you conquer a player's last region, (thus eliminating him/her from the game) the former opponent's spoils become yours!

During this part of your turn, you may assault any adjacent regions, as many times as possible, until you decide to stop. For example, you may assault one or more times from one region, switch to another region and then back to the original.

When reading this from the notes page, it implies that the attacker/defender are given an intensity level.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby natty dread on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:50 am

When reading this from the notes page, it implies that the attacker/defender are given an intensity level.


Yes, that happens when you roll the dice intensity cubes. The intensity cubes are rolled, and they produce dice rolls intensity levels from 1 to 6.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby lackattack on Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:43 am

beersurfer wrote:however true randomness will never be gotten on any computer or software program ... the design of a random generator has a human programming it to become random (its one of the first things you learn when you take a beginner's programming course)... which, as hard as they may try, it is still only a falsified rendition of true-randomness. the functionality of a computer only allows for people to manipulate the 0's and 1's ---- with enough manipulation it can be reasoned that a program generates "random" numbers ... but to be truly random you couldn't use a computer at all ...

so now we will begin to see all the high ranks that stole the old file and used it to win games--- begin to fall in the ranks with all the other players who never thought to copy it and search for streaks and use them to their advantage

it's a little tooooo late for me though ... im done with this site ... the last 2 months of average rolls being 4 to 10 ratio (me winning 4 to every 10 i lose) has pushed me beyond the reasoning that this site will ever be fairly random ... even with this update (which is way long overdue)

maybe if lackattack tried to incorporate a pointer system to randomly select places in the file to start from instead of sequentially pulling streaks for attacks then we wouldnt have to worry about whether we are in a bad streak of the file or not ... we would pull from a different location of the file each attack ensuring us from avoiding any streaks bad or good ... and if there truly are 1,000,000 attacks per day ... then this file will cycle 20 times a day ... so depending on when you play your turns ... you could easily hit the same streaks 7 to 8 times per day (for the avid player)


A few things I must say regarding your post...

1. As natty_dread said the numbers from random.org are true random and not computer generated.

2. Even if you had a copy of the old file (which was never leaked out) it would be virtually impossible to cheat. The dice file was so large each 3v2 dice roll was repeated many times so it would be hard to locate where in the file the website was reading from. Even if you knew where in the file the website was reading from you would have to be lucky enough to find an approaching streak to take advantage of. Even if you identified an approaching streak it would still be impossible to predict the velocity of dice rolls across the entire website so you wouldn't be able to control the timing of your attacks.

3. Please don't blame the website for your bad luck :-)

4. There is a natural level of streakiness to be expected from random numbers. No matter where or how you pull from the stream of random numbers, you will still face the same probability of hitting a streak.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby beersurfer on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:27 pm

lackattack wrote:
beersurfer wrote:however true randomness will never be gotten on any computer or software program ... the design of a random generator has a human programming it to become random (its one of the first things you learn when you take a beginner's programming course)... which, as hard as they may try, it is still only a falsified rendition of true-randomness. the functionality of a computer only allows for people to manipulate the 0's and 1's ---- with enough manipulation it can be reasoned that a program generates "random" numbers ... but to be truly random you couldn't use a computer at all ...

so now we will begin to see all the high ranks that stole the old file and used it to win games--- begin to fall in the ranks with all the other players who never thought to copy it and search for streaks and use them to their advantage

it's a little tooooo late for me though ... im done with this site ... the last 2 months of average rolls being 4 to 10 ratio (me winning 4 to every 10 i lose) has pushed me beyond the reasoning that this site will ever be fairly random ... even with this update (which is way long overdue)

maybe if lackattack tried to incorporate a pointer system to randomly select places in the file to start from instead of sequentially pulling streaks for attacks then we wouldnt have to worry about whether we are in a bad streak of the file or not ... we would pull from a different location of the file each attack ensuring us from avoiding any streaks bad or good ... and if there truly are 1,000,000 attacks per day ... then this file will cycle 20 times a day ... so depending on when you play your turns ... you could easily hit the same streaks 7 to 8 times per day (for the avid player)


A few things I must say regarding your post...

1. As natty_dread said the numbers from random.org are true random and not computer generated.

2. Even if you had a copy of the old file (which was never leaked out) it would be virtually impossible to cheat. The dice file was so large each 3v2 dice roll was repeated many times so it would be hard to locate where in the file the website was reading from. Even if you knew where in the file the website was reading from you would have to be lucky enough to find an approaching streak to take advantage of. Even if you identified an approaching streak it would still be impossible to predict the velocity of dice rolls across the entire website so you wouldn't be able to control the timing of your attacks.

3. Please don't blame the website for your bad luck :-)

4. There is a natural level of streakiness to be expected from random numbers. No matter where or how you pull from the stream of random numbers, you will still face the same probability of hitting a streak.


well lackattack ... im shocked that you arent more aware of what players on your site have actually been up to ... its not about leaking (which isn't the real problem)... its about hacking

I know multiple people who actually have copies of your old dice file and have written programs to find the streaks and anticipate approximately when to hit the attack button and succeeded in 80% win rolls ... based on small windows of time that the streaks will most likely hit ... the programs they wrote actually tell you based off of only 3 (3v2) attacks .. [the file isn't repeated as often as you suggest]... and then the program will give an estimated time "... in 5-10 sec. attacks for 10-15 sec. should be successful" (of course the wording differs depending on which program you view) ... some of the streaks they located were actually up to 50 sec. (but mostly 5-10 sec. and several lasting up to 30 and 40 sec.) --- based on average number of attacks per day divided by seconds per day ... of course not all the rolls will be successful ... but 80% majority is pretty good ... i chose never to cheat when i played this game ... but the facts were too intriguing not to find out more

its really simple its about building troops up to tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) ... and simply auto-attacking, copy and paste the large strings into another file ...
once they had almost a million rolls then it was easy for a program to find the overlapping sections of the partial files and put the whole file together ... then with another program input a couple of real time rolls and then the program finds your place in the file based off of the RT rolls inputed and the streaks have been pre-recorded ... so the program acts in less than 3 sec. completely giving you the next time for a streak ... and if there are more rolls going than estimated the program self adapts to readjust time increments based off of the difference of your new input from the time of your old input ... we are talking seconds here within minutes

and i was absolutely shocked at the accuracy of the program as i watched one particular person .. conquer an 8 man standard game with less than 1/3 the troops of the opponent he was targeting ... simply amazing ... so i know first hand that it has been copied by multiple people and has been cracked in more than just one form .... ... you really should listen to your customers more often ... all of this went down 2 years ago ... just shortly after i started playing ...

so to say that your file hasnt been leaked is probably true ... but to be so arrogant as to think that others aren't smart enough to crack your system... well ... hopefully you can learn from your past mistakes that apparently you were not even aware of.

and my experience here is beyond just bad luck ... this site is horrible when it comes to the dice when on average i get winning attacks less than 1/7th of the time (the only reason i got to brig is because i learned that if i play quads and dont have to attack we have a better chance of winning ... so i direct traffic ... and have a couple freestylers on my team to be used as attackers) .. because good freestylers dont get consistently bad dice ... its beyond luck ... there are too many games that are lop-sided .. one team gets all the dice and the other team just gets none ... there's no strategy ... its just stupid dumb luck ... and you should find a way to somewhat balance this out ... like using pointers when turns are begun to select a random location of the dice file and then read off the string ... end turn start next turn and it randomly jumps to another part of the file to read from ... its simple and wont take as much usage on your servers as trying to draw random numbers for each roll attacked daily... i noticed you didn't care to offer an explanation on this suggestion
Click image to enlarge.
image


last 25 battles:
beersurfer luck Avg roll -- opponents luck Avg roll
Assault ....-26% ..... 2.86 ............+48% .....4.70

really???????????
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:11 pm

Then why aren't you Conquerer if your glorious tale is actually true?
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby merch313 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:43 pm

Night Strike wrote:Then why aren't you Conquerer if your glorious tale is actually true?


He did state he doest cheat :?
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby sherkaner on Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:14 am

beersurfer wrote:well lackattack ... im shocked that you arent more aware of what players on your site have actually been up to ... its not about leaking (which isn't the real problem)... its about hacking

I know multiple people who actually have copies of your old dice file and have written programs to find the streaks and anticipate approximately when to hit the attack button and succeeded in 80% win rolls ... based on small windows of time that the streaks will most likely hit ... the programs they wrote actually tell you based off of only 3 (3v2) attacks .. [the file isn't repeated as often as you suggest]... and then the program will give an estimated time "... in 5-10 sec. attacks for 10-15 sec. should be successful" (of course the wording differs depending on which program you view) ... some of the streaks they located were actually up to 50 sec. (but mostly 5-10 sec. and several lasting up to 30 and 40 sec.) --- based on average number of attacks per day divided by seconds per day ... of course not all the rolls will be successful ... but 80% majority is pretty good ... i chose never to cheat when i played this game ... but the facts were too intriguing not to find out more

its really simple its about building troops up to tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) ... and simply auto-attacking, copy and paste the large strings into another file ...
once they had almost a million rolls then it was easy for a program to find the overlapping sections of the partial files and put the whole file together ... then with another program input a couple of real time rolls and then the program finds your place in the file based off of the RT rolls inputed and the streaks have been pre-recorded ... so the program acts in less than 3 sec. completely giving you the next time for a streak ... and if there are more rolls going than estimated the program self adapts to readjust time increments based off of the difference of your new input from the time of your old input ... we are talking seconds here within minutes

and i was absolutely shocked at the accuracy of the program as i watched one particular person .. conquer an 8 man standard game with less than 1/3 the troops of the opponent he was targeting ... simply amazing ... so i know first hand that it has been copied by multiple people and has been cracked in more than just one form .... ... you really should listen to your customers more often ... all of this went down 2 years ago ... just shortly after i started playing ...

so to say that your file hasnt been leaked is probably true ... but to be so arrogant as to think that others aren't smart enough to crack your system... well ... hopefully you can learn from your past mistakes that apparently you were not even aware of.

and my experience here is beyond just bad luck ... this site is horrible when it comes to the dice when on average i get winning attacks less than 1/7th of the time (the only reason i got to brig is because i learned that if i play quads and dont have to attack we have a better chance of winning ... so i direct traffic ... and have a couple freestylers on my team to be used as attackers) .. because good freestylers dont get consistently bad dice ... its beyond luck ... there are too many games that are lop-sided .. one team gets all the dice and the other team just gets none ... there's no strategy ... its just stupid dumb luck ... and you should find a way to somewhat balance this out ... like using pointers when turns are begun to select a random location of the dice file and then read off the string ... end turn start next turn and it randomly jumps to another part of the file to read from ... its simple and wont take as much usage on your servers as trying to draw random numbers for each roll attacked daily... i noticed you didn't care to offer an explanation on this suggestion


Fascinating if it's true. I know it's possible, but I wouldn't have guessed someone would have taken the time (throwing and remembering 700k+ dice I guess) to get things working. Luckily the amount of throws has increased over the years, which means the method will probably be more likely to fail now (or at least have a smaller time window, but I guess it should lower the probability too).

One question though, if a few people were/are still abusing this, why is it that most winning percentages are still in line with what I'd expect? And why hasn't anyone posted something like this before? That kinda points to either this being a made-up story or the group of players using this being very small (though naturally they would be in the first page of the scoreboard).

(Btw, with over 1m throws per day, the current rate would be about 12 throws (of 5 dice, old format) per second..)
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby carlpgoodrich on Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:13 am

Well, Lack has recently changed the string, and he said he will change it periodically, so that just about solves the problem, doesn't it? They would have to do a 20k vs 20k auto assault every time it changes, and that should be pretty easy for the cheating and abuse mods to look for. Also, with the implementation of only using 4 dice in 3v1 (for example), that "lucky streak" could easily turn into an "unlucky streak," so I think the point is moot.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby beersurfer on Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:01 pm

sherkaner wrote:


One question though, if a few people were/are still abusing this, why is it that most winning percentages are still in line with what I'd expect? And why hasn't anyone posted something like this before? That kinda points to either this being a made-up story or the group of players using this being very small (though naturally they would be in the first page of the scoreboard).


actually the guys who showed me, cared more about beating this system than actually playing the game ... so once they figured a way to crack it ... they moved on to more challenging tasks... it is true ... you can believe it or not ... your choice... but i witnessed it ... and its the reason why certain players i believe hold very high ranks and almost never lose many rolls ... i could name names ... but its pointless now that the file has changed ... and if you dig deep enough in the forums ... there are still lingering conversations from 2+ years ago about the hacking of the file ... they just weren't as blatant as my explanation ... because they were the ones actually cracking the file and didnt want to get blamed for it :P
Click image to enlarge.
image


last 25 battles:
beersurfer luck Avg roll -- opponents luck Avg roll
Assault ....-26% ..... 2.86 ............+48% .....4.70

really???????????
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:47 pm

beersurfer wrote:
sherkaner wrote:


One question though, if a few people were/are still abusing this, why is it that most winning percentages are still in line with what I'd expect? And why hasn't anyone posted something like this before? That kinda points to either this being a made-up story or the group of players using this being very small (though naturally they would be in the first page of the scoreboard).


actually the guys who showed me, cared more about beating this system than actually playing the game ... so once they figured a way to crack it ... they moved on to more challenging tasks... it is true ... you can believe it or not ... your choice... but i witnessed it ... and its the reason why certain players i believe hold very high ranks and almost never lose many rolls ... i could name names ... but its pointless now that the file has changed ... and if you dig deep enough in the forums ... there are still lingering conversations from 2+ years ago about the hacking of the file ... they just weren't as blatant as my explanation ... because they were the ones actually cracking the file and didnt want to get blamed for it :P




This whole idea is baseless. There is no proof and nobody has better rolls and me or you. We all have the same dice.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby natty dread on Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:57 pm

Bruceswar wrote:

This whole idea is baseless. There is no proof and nobody has better rolls and me or you. We all have the same dice.



AHA! Bruceswar is the hacker!! :P
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby mibi on Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:00 pm

I have just been informed of a member who shall remain nameless has created a ip packet sniffer script which detects one way IO packets from random.org to conquerclub.com and is able to piece together that dice batch string with decent accuracy. This member is able to correlate attacks with favorable results match against the batch database, although it only works about half of the time, and works about 80% of the time when there is less dice usage, between 1am-4am. Basically, this use can launch an attack when streaks on on their side. Sometimes it can take upto 1o minutes to sniff a streak long enough to have time to launch the attack and match it to the dice string.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby jleonnn on Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:18 pm

I thought you guys were just gonna change the art for the dice lol
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:58 pm

I know a guy who kidnapped lack and forced him to give up the dice file at gunpoint. True story guys.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby donovan THE DARK on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:31 am

Yeah.... I am not liking these new dice. Can we pick which one to use? lol kidding. I guess I will just have to get used to them. :-(
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby Dako on Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:37 am

mibi wrote:I have just been informed of a member who shall remain nameless has created a ip packet sniffer script which detects one way IO packets from random.org to conquerclub.com and is able to piece together that dice batch string with decent accuracy. This member is able to correlate attacks with favorable results match against the batch database, although it only works about half of the time, and works about 80% of the time when there is less dice usage, between 1am-4am. Basically, this use can launch an attack when streaks on on their side. Sometimes it can take upto 1o minutes to sniff a streak long enough to have time to launch the attack and match it to the dice string.

Ahahahaha, that just made my day :D.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby lackattack on Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:57 am

As fantastic as it sounds, I must take beersurfer's story seriously to protect the integrity of the game. I'm currently looking into ways to further prevent dice predicting.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby jaimito101 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:42 pm

so if there is a streak of high numbers comming up, and there are about 12 rolls a second...

you would have a 1/12 second window to throw the dice so they will be in your favour... a 1/12 second too late or too early and the defender would have the streak on their side. (the selection of random dice nrs move to the to the right, wich can be 2,3,4,5 steps away)

taking these facts into account, to exploit the system you would then need an automated program clicking on the assault button for you (as humans cannot see a command and react to it within 1/12 of a second), wich to my knowledge is not yet available? also any kind of lag could also screw you horribly.

not buying this...
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby nietzsche on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:49 pm

To me is still random. With random dice you can lose 30 in a row or win 30 in a row, the problem with the complaints is that we use selective memory.

To tell you the truth, I thought it was done like the new system, which to me is simpler. Simple = Elegant.

Either way is random.

I once lost 8 coin tosses in a row, I remember exactly because we were playing with coins of about 8dls, and at the end I only lost 2 coins.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby owenshooter on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:57 pm

lackattack wrote:As fantastic as it sounds, I must take beersurfer's story seriously to protect the integrity of the game. I'm currently looking into ways to further prevent dice predicting.

almost as good as the one about my being crucified, left in a tomb, and then rising again after 3 days...-the black jesus

p.s.-ever fix that game that me and jbrettlip are stuck in? let's get moving, turtle boy!!!
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby sherkaner on Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:07 pm

jaimito101 wrote:so if there is a streak of high numbers comming up, and there are about 12 rolls a second...

you would have a 1/12 second window to throw the dice so they will be in your favour... a 1/12 second too late or too early and the defender would have the streak on their side. (the selection of random dice nrs move to the to the right, wich can be 2,3,4,5 steps away)

taking these facts into account, to exploit the system you would then need an automated program clicking on the assault button for you (as humans cannot see a command and react to it within 1/12 of a second), wich to my knowledge is not yet available? also any kind of lag could also screw you horribly.

not buying this...

Not really, he talks about a 80% chance of being succesful. So it's probably averaged over multiple dice, there might be just a set of 30 dice where 24 get you a win or something like that (or the other way around). But you'd still have to throw 2 attacks to know where the dice are in the sequence before you know anything (2 should actually do the trick). Possible, but hard to pull off.
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Re: New "Intensity Cubes"

Postby nietzsche on Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:17 pm

mibi wrote:I have just been informed of a member who shall remain nameless has created a ip packet sniffer script which detects one way IO packets from random.org to conquerclub.com and is able to piece together that dice batch string with decent accuracy. This member is able to correlate attacks with favorable results match against the batch database, although it only works about half of the time, and works about 80% of the time when there is less dice usage, between 1am-4am. Basically, this use can launch an attack when streaks on on their side. Sometimes it can take upto 1o minutes to sniff a streak long enough to have time to launch the attack and match it to the dice string.


LOL

1. how is he gonna sniff the packet? He'd had to be in the same NAT, and I don't think the webhosting cc uses is in a NAT. You have to be in the middle to sniff a packet. (If that were the case you could always modify the numbers once gotten from random.org by any simple formula, like adding 1, making a 6 a 1.)

2. predict? in case he got it it would be a 100% true.

3. the timing, even if you now the sequence, how fast is he to know which number was last used and then deduct whats next and make an attack, and so on. it's ridiculous.

4. 10 minutes to sniff a streak? lol, if he gets it it's instantly.

5. why would you post this without computer knowledge? didn't you think that there would be at least 100 readers of this thread who knew how full of shit you are?
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