Round Limits

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Re: Round Limits

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:14 pm

lackattack wrote:
DJ Teflon wrote:If troop numbers are equal it is somewhat arbitrary that the game creatoir wins, surely we can have a draw in this situation (no points for anyone)?


Well, if all players deadbeat at the same round, they are processed in join order and the last player to join wins. As you will see in my next update, we need to always have a winner...


If they all deadbeat then they would have no place to complain about an unsatisfactory result ;)

Yeah, just realised why there has to be a winner now ;)
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Re: Round Limits

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:17 pm

clapper011 wrote:
lackattack wrote:No, it uses the troup count from in-game stats

so is that a no to my question? lol 8-[


clapper011 wrote:so can this be applied to past games still running????? O:)


I am guessing the answer would be no, imagine the hassle of dealing with the endless debates from players if it were possible - there would be a seperate thread for each stalemated game and by the time the players came to an agreement, they would be over anyway :lol:
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Re: Round Limits

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:11 pm

What about team games? Is the winner decided by total amount of troops of the team, or does the team that has the "winning player" win?
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Re: Round Limits

Postby nvrijn on Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:00 pm

At first blush, I loved the idea. Imposing a turn limit is a great way to avoid those endless "reinforce and hold" games with no RISK (or even Fixed value Risk). CC is very responsive to players needs.

But there were several ways to do it. Determine the winner by number of territories held, by the bonus received or by number of men. Someone chose number of men, but I really think one of the alternatives (or a combination) might have been better.

Now as the clock approaches midnight in a multi-player game, everyone is trying to avoid attacking anyone else. It's pretty clear who's NOT gonna win, and any player who recognizes that fact can determine the winner by attacking the leading rival. So the temptation to suicide is going to be very strong, and the ultimate reward goes to the player who didn't piss anyone off. That tends to minimize strategy over diplomacy, and players who know each other will be far more likely to cooperate "in the end game" then they are now.

But if the primary factor was territories or bonuses, it's different (and I think better). The player who is strategic enough to barricade themselves off from multiple attackers, while racing around and ensuring no one else has a higher territory count, or bonus count, probably deserves to win. The downside is that it offers a real disadvantage to the guy that goes first.

I suspect the optimum way would be to choose the winner based upon several factors.

Total number of bonuses
Total number of territories (factors different if different number of territories in the variant)
The remaining number of men


It might be more complex to figure out, but that is GOOD because it gives a player several ways to win, the point weighing reflects the actual strategy considerations, the special suicide end game strategy is minimized, and it would provide several strategies for winning as the turn clock ticked down, instead of only one.

Is the current "end value" computation of this new variant written in stone?

Regards,

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Re: Round Limits

Postby nvrijn on Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:06 pm

What about team games? Is the winner decided by total amount of troops of the team, or does the team that has the "winning player" win?


That is a GREAT question! I suspect the former. However the latter offers more interesting possibilities (do I kill neutrals to link up with the big guy before the clock runs out)?

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Re: Round Limits

Postby QoH on Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:51 pm

There's only one thing I don't like about his update...

The update wasn't the upgraded invite system!

Other than that, awesome!
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Re: Round Limits

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:28 pm

Does it open new avenues of abuse? Whilst I love the concept and implementation (though I doubt I'll ever use it) I can see instances where in multiplayer singles games one guy (who cannot win) simply scuppers the chances of a player in order that his friend or clanmate can win it. In a normal game he wouldn't do this as the 'victim' would have a chance in the next round to eliminate the suicider, but if it got to the last turn in R20 and the suicider has nothing to lose then I can definitely foresee instances of favouritism coming into play, and I think this may be the cause of a lot of illwill in future. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

nvrijn makes a similar point in his post above.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby ljex on Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:17 pm

Do people not realize that this changes the entire strategy of the game. Clearly everyone knows who is going to win as it starts coming down to the end and they are going to make the moves they think are best but if anything i think this addition encourages people to attack more throughout the game and not stack as much. Either way this is a good update, people can complain all they want and say it should have been done differently but i dont see how. Clearly if we are in round 19 people are going to know that the end is near and attacking will ensue so that everyone can try to put themselves in the best position. It does give a bit of an advantage to the last player to play...but seeing as that is random and being last is a disadvantage, i dont see how that is a problem.

Good update lack
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Re: Round Limits

Postby BYUwonder11 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:24 am

Agree with this 100%, nothing to me is more frustrating and exhausting than playing a game for months, then making a tiebreaker which also goes into a stalemate situation. Great idea lack, a must do if you ask me.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby denominator on Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:51 am

ljex wrote:Do people not realize that this changes the entire strategy of the game. Clearly everyone knows who is going to win as it starts coming down to the end and they are going to make the moves they think are best but if anything i think this addition encourages people to attack more throughout the game and not stack as much. Either way this is a good update, people can complain all they want and say it should have been done differently but i dont see how. Clearly if we are in round 19 people are going to know that the end is near and attacking will ensue so that everyone can try to put themselves in the best position. It does give a bit of an advantage to the last player to play...but seeing as that is random and being last is a disadvantage, i dont see how that is a problem.

Good update lack


While I agree mostly with your analysis, I think it's going to cause players to stack more early instead of attacking. Most notably in the short games (20 rounds), I suspect players are going to conserve troops as much as possible in the first 15 or so rounds, then it will be 5 rounds of all out suiciding to determine the winner.

It reminds me a bit of NASCAR - the first 490 laps are just driving in circles trying to stay in a position where you have the possibility of winning, and the last 10 are actually for racing.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby ljex on Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:39 am

denominator wrote:
ljex wrote:Do people not realize that this changes the entire strategy of the game. Clearly everyone knows who is going to win as it starts coming down to the end and they are going to make the moves they think are best but if anything i think this addition encourages people to attack more throughout the game and not stack as much. Either way this is a good update, people can complain all they want and say it should have been done differently but i dont see how. Clearly if we are in round 19 people are going to know that the end is near and attacking will ensue so that everyone can try to put themselves in the best position. It does give a bit of an advantage to the last player to play...but seeing as that is random and being last is a disadvantage, i dont see how that is a problem.

Good update lack


While I agree mostly with your analysis, I think it's going to cause players to stack more early instead of attacking. Most notably in the short games (20 rounds), I suspect players are going to conserve troops as much as possible in the first 15 or so rounds, then it will be 5 rounds of all out suiciding to determine the winner.

It reminds me a bit of NASCAR - the first 490 laps are just driving in circles trying to stay in a position where you have the possibility of winning, and the last 10 are actually for racing.


haha problem is if you are just stacking people are going to view you as the main threat and attack you, when being attacked you have lower odds so good players will know to keep themselves not at the top but near it while still attacking around to gain strength by having a higher deploy and such.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby lackattack on Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:42 am

natty_dread wrote:What about team games? Is the winner decided by total amount of troops of the team, or does the team that has the "winning player" win?


I updated the instructions:

With round limits, the game will automatically finish at the end of the specified round. The winner will be the surviving player with the most troops. If there is a tie, it will be broken based on the most regions. If there is still a tie, the winner is selected based on join order. When playing a round limited game with teams, the winning team will be based on highest individual troop count, not teamwide troup count. This option is great for avoiding stalemates and can add some spice to the game as the deadline approaches!
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Re: Round Limits

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:58 am

When playing a round limited game with teams, the winning team will be based on highest individual troop count, not teamwide troup count.


Interesting. So at the end of, say, Round 20 the quad team with one player left with 10 armies would beat the team with 9,9,9,9 (36 armies). Seems a bit unfair somehow.

What happens in the event the teams each have a player with an equal highest number of troops and territories?
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Re: Round Limits

Postby lackattack on Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:04 pm

With round limits, the game will automatically finish at the end of the specified round. The winner will be the surviving player with the most troops. If there is a tie, it will be broken based on the most regions. If there is still a tie, the winner is selected based on join order. When playing a round limited game with teams, the winning team will be based on highest individual troop count, not teamwide troup count. This option is great for avoiding stalemates and can add some spice to the game as the deadline approaches!
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Re: Round Limits

Postby karelpietertje on Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:20 pm

Why update the instructions like that's the way it should be? The team with the highest total troop count should win!
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Re: Round Limits

Postby denominator on Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:14 pm

ljex wrote:
denominator wrote:
ljex wrote:Do people not realize that this changes the entire strategy of the game. Clearly everyone knows who is going to win as it starts coming down to the end and they are going to make the moves they think are best but if anything i think this addition encourages people to attack more throughout the game and not stack as much. Either way this is a good update, people can complain all they want and say it should have been done differently but i dont see how. Clearly if we are in round 19 people are going to know that the end is near and attacking will ensue so that everyone can try to put themselves in the best position. It does give a bit of an advantage to the last player to play...but seeing as that is random and being last is a disadvantage, i dont see how that is a problem.

Good update lack


While I agree mostly with your analysis, I think it's going to cause players to stack more early instead of attacking. Most notably in the short games (20 rounds), I suspect players are going to conserve troops as much as possible in the first 15 or so rounds, then it will be 5 rounds of all out suiciding to determine the winner.

It reminds me a bit of NASCAR - the first 490 laps are just driving in circles trying to stay in a position where you have the possibility of winning, and the last 10 are actually for racing.


haha problem is if you are just stacking people are going to view you as the main threat and attack you, when being attacked you have lower odds so good players will know to keep themselves not at the top but near it while still attacking around to gain strength by having a higher deploy and such.


Agreed - except in the fog games. BOB obviously helps there, but if you manage to gain a territory or two that others can't see, you could simply stack all your troops there and no-one would be the wiser.

Chariot of Fire wrote:
When playing a round limited game with teams, the winning team will be based on highest individual troop count, not teamwide troup count.


Interesting. So at the end of, say, Round 20 the quad team with one player left with 10 armies would beat the team with 9,9,9,9 (36 armies). Seems a bit unfair somehow.

What happens in the event the teams each have a player with an equal highest number of troops and territories?


It seems to me that the best thing to do in a stalemated game 3 rounds before the end would be to have 3 of the players miss turns. If 3/4 of the team deadbeat, all the troops will be passed to the remaining teammate. Individual troop count is a very poor indication of overall team position.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:16 pm

I don't see why you can't work with it. A team that's 9, 9, 9, 9 versus a player with 10 and the 10 wins, well that's the first team's fault! They should have forted up a teammate as the Round Limit approached.

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Re: Round Limits

Postby patrickaa317 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:18 pm

denominator wrote:
ljex wrote:
denominator wrote:
ljex wrote:Do people not realize that this changes the entire strategy of the game. Clearly everyone knows who is going to win as it starts coming down to the end and they are going to make the moves they think are best but if anything i think this addition encourages people to attack more throughout the game and not stack as much. Either way this is a good update, people can complain all they want and say it should have been done differently but i dont see how. Clearly if we are in round 19 people are going to know that the end is near and attacking will ensue so that everyone can try to put themselves in the best position. It does give a bit of an advantage to the last player to play...but seeing as that is random and being last is a disadvantage, i dont see how that is a problem.

Good update lack


While I agree mostly with your analysis, I think it's going to cause players to stack more early instead of attacking. Most notably in the short games (20 rounds), I suspect players are going to conserve troops as much as possible in the first 15 or so rounds, then it will be 5 rounds of all out suiciding to determine the winner.

It reminds me a bit of NASCAR - the first 490 laps are just driving in circles trying to stay in a position where you have the possibility of winning, and the last 10 are actually for racing.


haha problem is if you are just stacking people are going to view you as the main threat and attack you, when being attacked you have lower odds so good players will know to keep themselves not at the top but near it while still attacking around to gain strength by having a higher deploy and such.


Agreed - except in the fog games. BOB obviously helps there, but if you manage to gain a territory or two that others can't see, you could simply stack all your troops there and no-one would be the wiser.

Chariot of Fire wrote:
When playing a round limited game with teams, the winning team will be based on highest individual troop count, not teamwide troup count.


Interesting. So at the end of, say, Round 20 the quad team with one player left with 10 armies would beat the team with 9,9,9,9 (36 armies). Seems a bit unfair somehow.

What happens in the event the teams each have a player with an equal highest number of troops and territories?


It seems to me that the best thing to do in a stalemated game 3 rounds before the end would be to have 3 of the players miss turns. If 3/4 of the team deadbeat, all the troops will be passed to the remaining teammate. Individual troop count is a very poor indication of overall team position.


You'd miss those 9 deployments.

And how many Quads games are stalemated after 17 rounds?

I do agree that highest individual troop count is a piss poor way to do it for team games. Then again, I doubt I'll ever play a team game with round limits except 2v2v2 or 2v2v2v2
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Re: Round Limits

Postby nvrijn on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:27 pm

"It seems to me that the best thing to do in a stalemated game 3 rounds before the end would be to have 3 of the players miss turns. If 3/4 of the team deadbeat, all the troops will be passed to the remaining teammate."

Brilliant! The variant just got implemented, and you've ALREADY beaten the system. I don't see why it isn't the team with the most men. That's generally who's ahead. Otherwise it's like suddenly stopping a relay race and giving it to whichever team had the guy who ran the fastest individual lap. That just seems wrong.

They don't call them TEAM games for nothing.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby Mr_Adams on Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:20 pm

ManBungalow wrote:Sexy time.



It's always sexy time in the bungalow.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby BYUwonder11 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:10 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I don't see why you can't work with it. A team that's 9, 9, 9, 9 versus a player with 10 and the 10 wins, well that's the first team's fault! They should have forted up a teammate as the Round Limit approached.

-Sully


Agreed here, how funny would that be if the one person did win...lol I think we all get the principle here of this one, doubt that this situation would happen very often if at all, but troop count just like in singles should be the determining factor
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Re: Round Limits

Postby ender516 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:46 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I don't see why you can't work with it. A team that's 9, 9, 9, 9 versus a player with 10 and the 10 wins, well that's the first team's fault! They should have forted up a teammate as the Round Limit approached.

-Sully

People can work with it, but the question is: how much should the introduction of the round limit affect the play? I always felt that the calculation of the winner should favour the player or team that would likely win in the long run if there were no limit. I agree with Chariot of Fire that the intact team should prevail over the lone player. With this "single best player represents the team" method, we will now need to adjust strategy to keep the limit in mind, and pile everything onto one player. Doing this makes the other players more vulnerable to elimination, which might lead to the singleton taking the game before the limit expires. So there you have an obviously stronger team being forced to weaken its position in order to win. :-s :?: :?
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Re: Round Limits

Postby elGrande on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:57 pm

nvrijn wrote:At first blush, I loved the idea. Imposing a turn limit is a great way to avoid those endless "reinforce and hold" games with no RISK (or even Fixed value Risk). CC is very responsive to players needs.

But there were several ways to do it. Determine the winner by number of territories held, by the bonus received or by number of men. Someone chose number of men, but I really think one of the alternatives (or a combination) might have been better.

Now as the clock approaches midnight in a multi-player game, everyone is trying to avoid attacking anyone else. It's pretty clear who's NOT gonna win, and any player who recognizes that fact can determine the winner by attacking the leading rival. So the temptation to suicide is going to be very strong, and the ultimate reward goes to the player who didn't piss anyone off. That tends to minimize strategy over diplomacy, and players who know each other will be far more likely to cooperate "in the end game" then they are now.

But if the primary factor was territories or bonuses, it's different (and I think better). The player who is strategic enough to barricade themselves off from multiple attackers, while racing around and ensuring no one else has a higher territory count, or bonus count, probably deserves to win. The downside is that it offers a real disadvantage to the guy that goes first.

I suspect the optimum way would be to choose the winner based upon several factors.

Total number of bonuses
Total number of territories (factors different if different number of territories in the variant)
The remaining number of men


It might be more complex to figure out, but that is GOOD because it gives a player several ways to win, the point weighing reflects the actual strategy considerations, the special suicide end game strategy is minimized, and it would provide several strategies for winning as the turn clock ticked down, instead of only one.

Is the current "end value" computation of this new variant written in stone?

Regards,

NVRijn


This guy sees the very same issues I stated earlier and points them out very clearly! Well done sir.

Only using the most troops as the math to decide the winner is very problematic and just makes zero sense.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby elGrande on Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:03 am

Guys.. the real issue is not the round limit... its the math that decides the winner. If more math/thought is put into how a winner is decided in the case of the limits being met.. we would find much less opportunity for abuse. I suggest we fix the big problem first.. then look at it all again and find where there could be abuse. I will bet.. once we decide on a more fair algorithm for deciding the winner we will have less to discuss.
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Re: Round Limits

Postby eddie2 on Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:23 am

now really cc has wasted there time coding a real stupid item on site when there are really valid things needing addressed. i mean come on this update is just going to encorage more farming etc. building games are 9 out of ten times on maps like feudal that avearge game runs more than 20 rounds. so the player who sits and does nothing wins you are taking the game away players will just sit and stack bombard and hope they win.

also what about assassin games. 1 player goes for his target his target has 1 troup left he has 19 and the other has 22 are you reaslly telling me you are gonna class the guy with 22 troups the leader.

same as in terminator games say 4 player game

player a 1 region 1 troup left because player b attacked him.

player b 15 troups stacked beside player a cornered 30 regions.

player c 30 troups 5 regions

player d 28 troups.

are you really saying player b although he has a kill his next turn wont get any points. because player c or d wont attack if it is close to end of round limit.

come on cc i thought you would look at what complications would come into effect with a option like this. all this is gonna do is piss a lot of players off.
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