Conquer Cup I

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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Tviorr on Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:27 am

Well assuming that you are really clever and know all about escalating strategy, then entering pretty much any contest where the majority of the other contestants are so obviously morons, would actually up your chances of winning, making it less of a lottery.

I mean, assuming people pay too much attention to map bonuses, a defensive setup strategy should be even more efficient in setting you up to make a bid at exactly the right time. Again, assuming that you are really clever.

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jammyjames wrote:Nice - 1st game.. Second eliminated.. Thanks MR Private!!


Did you really expect anything else, this tournament was always going to be a total lottery because the majority taking part dont know basic escalating strategy.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:56 pm

Sorry to interrupt your bickering, but I have a complaint about the actual tournament... Conquer Club put two long-time teammates (possibly even multis) in the same game of the first round.

I understand this stuff is hard to track and I've never made a complaint before, but when you ask players to spend $5 on entry, you need to make the extra effort to prevent this. It is highly unfair to myself and the other two players to have to face two players (or one, perhaps) who play almost all their games together.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=157035
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Rodion on Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:41 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:Sorry to interrupt your bickering, but I have a complaint about the actual tournament... Conquer Club put two long-time teammates (possibly even multis) in the same game of the first round.

I understand this stuff is hard to track and I've never made a complaint before, but when you ask players to spend $5 on entry, you need to make the extra effort to prevent this. It is highly unfair to myself and the other two players to have to face two players (or one, perhaps) who play almost all their games together.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=157035


It's funny that you mentioned how you wasted 5 dollars when simply having a set to cash with your 4 cards can be enough to have a reasonable chance of winning the game.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:01 pm

Rodion wrote:It's funny that you mentioned how you wasted 5 dollars when simply having a set to cash with your 4 cards can be enough to have a reasonable chance of winning the game.


And of course, I totally choked on it. Awesome. I wasted 5 dollars by being me.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Rodion on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:10 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:
Rodion wrote:It's funny that you mentioned how you wasted 5 dollars when simply having a set to cash with your 4 cards can be enough to have a reasonable chance of winning the game.


And of course, I totally choked on it. Awesome. I wasted 5 dollars by being me.


I saw it.

Before dealing pink the final blow, you should have used your Dubai and Magadan stacks to hit yellow as much as you could. That would have allowed you to deploy your cash of 25 more accurately instead of staying with a useless 10 in Cape Town and no way to kill Novosibirsk. The 8 in Magadan simply was not enough and you'd have known that beforehand had you thought about trimming yellow before finishing pink.

On an unrelated note, if yellow has a set and refuses to cash it, you'll have a smoking gun for your C&A report.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:12 pm

Well, I also misdeployed. I would have spread my cash from pink out better, but fair point about thinking ahead.

Oh well.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Rodion on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:22 pm

By the way, am I right in assuming round 2 games start as soon as there are 5 round 1 winners? That could allow for people to control who they play against in the latter rounds by deciding when they should kill the last remaining player. :-k
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:24 pm

Rodion wrote:By the way, am I right in assuming round 2 games start as soon as there are 5 round 1 winners? That could allow for people to control who they play against in the latter rounds by deciding when they should kill the last remaining player. :-k


They start within an hour of there being 5 waiting players, yes. Theoretically you could use this to avoid playing particular people, but you would be guilty of game hijacking if you did it over multiple turns.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:27 am

Just a thought for future editions of this tourney, would it not be better to make each of the games a more level playing field by pooling players of equal/similar rank in each of the games? It means there would be less disparity in both terms of ability and points won/lost, plus less likelihood of a noob ruining a game for a seasoned esc player. Whichever player from the lesser ranks makes it through the first few rounds is obviously worth his salt and is worthy of playing with the higher ranks (so this pooling of players need only apply to the first two rounds, say).

Another (indirect) benefit of adopting this system is it prevents the possibility of abusing the system through the creation of multis in the hope one of them gets entered in the same game as the established player. For a mere $5 per entry I'm sure it may have entered someone's mind to nip round the corner to every establishment with internet and greatly enhance his (established account's) odds of winning the grand prize.

As a reformed criminal I tend to spot these things immedately ;-)
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Mageplunka69 on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:34 am

Game 9979966 over ♥ i win woot woot
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:47 am

I'd consider participating in future cups if they were 1v1 tourneys. I have enough frustration joining free games full of inexperienced players.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:11 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Just a thought for future editions of this tourney, would it not be better to make each of the games a more level playing field by pooling players of equal/similar rank in each of the games? It means there would be less disparity in both terms of ability and points won/lost, plus less likelihood of a noob ruining a game for a seasoned esc player. Whichever player from the lesser ranks makes it through the first few rounds is obviously worth his salt and is worthy of playing with the higher ranks (so this pooling of players need only apply to the first two rounds, say).


Double standard here. Why is it that when a "seasoned" player loses an escalating game it's because a noob ruined the game, whereas when one of the lower ranked players wins against other lower ranked players they did it through skill?
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby grifftron on Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:56 am

I would rather play against a bunch of noobs round 1 then a bunch of experienced players

me vs 4 noobs (chance of going on 80%)

me vs 4 experienced players (chance of going on 79%)

I like my odds

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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Dako on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:25 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Just a thought for future editions of this tourney, would it not be better to make each of the games a more level playing field by pooling players of equal/similar rank in each of the games? It means there would be less disparity in both terms of ability and points won/lost, plus less likelihood of a noob ruining a game for a seasoned esc player. Whichever player from the lesser ranks makes it through the first few rounds is obviously worth his salt and is worthy of playing with the higher ranks (so this pooling of players need only apply to the first two rounds, say).

Another (indirect) benefit of adopting this system is it prevents the possibility of abusing the system through the creation of multis in the hope one of them gets entered in the same game as the established player. For a mere $5 per entry I'm sure it may have entered someone's mind to nip round the corner to every establishment with internet and greatly enhance his (established account's) odds of winning the grand prize.

As a reformed criminal I tend to spot these things immedately ;-)

That way 1 game of seasoned players will advance only 1 seasoned player into Round 2 and he will be put into game with a lot of noobs. Or there will be a final with 1 colonel and 5 stripers. I think total random is fair enough.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:42 am

Not really mate. I'm not sure what the exact figures are of the status of those who signed-up, but it could be said to be approx 50% officers and 50% noobs/NCOs. After two rounds the surviving players would still be 50/50 as per the above, at which time the draw becomes mixed (the noobs and NCOs who got through having proven they are adept at the game as it's unlikely one person got lucky twice).

I'm sure it's preferable for many to go out in R1 at the hands of a decent player rather than get 'noobed' by a poor move on the part of someone who plays just after you which allows the next player to sweep the board.

I'd probably have signed-up if I didn't think I was going to get frustrated at some of the tactics that have already been evident in the first round games.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby comic boy on Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:10 am

Tviorr wrote:Well assuming that you are really clever and know all about escalating strategy, then entering pretty much any contest where the majority of the other contestants are so obviously morons, would actually up your chances of winning, making it less of a lottery.

I mean, assuming people pay too much attention to map bonuses, a defensive setup strategy should be even more efficient in setting you up to make a bid at exactly the right time. Again, assuming that you are really clever.

comic boy wrote:
jammyjames wrote:Nice - 1st game.. Second eliminated.. Thanks MR Private!!


Did you really expect anything else, this tournament was always going to be a total lottery because the majority taking part dont know basic escalating strategy.



Nice to know you had a look at how JammyJames was suicided ( twice ) before struggling to inject a note of sarcasm into your post :D
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby denominator on Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:53 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Just a thought for future editions of this tourney, would it not be better to make each of the games a more level playing field by pooling players of equal/similar rank in each of the games? It means there would be less disparity in both terms of ability and points won/lost, plus less likelihood of a noob ruining a game for a seasoned esc player. Whichever player from the lesser ranks makes it through the first few rounds is obviously worth his salt and is worthy of playing with the higher ranks (so this pooling of players need only apply to the first two rounds, say).

Another (indirect) benefit of adopting this system is it prevents the possibility of abusing the system through the creation of multis in the hope one of them gets entered in the same game as the established player. For a mere $5 per entry I'm sure it may have entered someone's mind to nip round the corner to every establishment with internet and greatly enhance his (established account's) odds of winning the grand prize.

As a reformed criminal I tend to spot these things immedately ;-)


I agree that there is high incentive for creating multiple accounts and throwing $5 at this in so far as the shot at winning the iPod. And while that is against the rules, the spirit of the no-multi rule is so that you don't play against yourself, which is highly unlikely at this point.

That being said, I think much is being said about the so-called n00bs ruining the game for so-called seasoned players. RISK, and by association, ConquerClub has many different strategies, all of which can be successful, of which some are more consistently successful and others less consistently. The mark of a great player (which I certainly do not claim to be), in my opinion, is the ability to recognize when the common strategy (which I have read others refer to, in this thread, as "basic escalating strategy") is not going to work and to apply a different strategy.

Being able to recognize how your opponents are playing leads to far greater chances of success than simply playing the basic escalating strategy and hoping everyone else does. Everyone has a right to play the game however they see fit, so complaining that you lost because another player didn't play "properly" is pathetic.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:02 am

denominator wrote:Being able to recognize how your opponents are playing leads to far greater chances of success than simply playing the basic escalating strategy and hoping everyone else does. Everyone has a right to play the game however they see fit, so complaining that you lost because another player didn't play "properly" is pathetic.


Not really. Look at this scenario, which happens in lots of games with "inexperienced" players.

-Everyone has 4-5 spoils
-Player A cashes for 20, uses it to take Africa (or a similar bonus, which is inconsequential at this point in the game). By focusing solely on his new bonus, he ignores the fact that he's decimated Player E to fewer troops than the next cash is worth. All he cares about is securing his borders with stacks of 8, to ensure he gets that +3 next turn (unaware that the game won't last that long).

Now, what exactly could Player C or D (or E for that matter) done differently to stop B from sweeping the board right here? I guarantee, if you look hard enough, you'll find at least 4-5 instances of this happening in the first round of the Cup.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby denominator on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:34 am

drunkmonkey wrote:
denominator wrote:Being able to recognize how your opponents are playing leads to far greater chances of success than simply playing the basic escalating strategy and hoping everyone else does. Everyone has a right to play the game however they see fit, so complaining that you lost because another player didn't play "properly" is pathetic.


Not really. Look at this scenario, which happens in lots of games with "inexperienced" players.

-Everyone has 4-5 spoils
-Player A cashes for 20, uses it to take Africa (or a similar bonus, which is inconsequential at this point in the game). By focusing solely on his new bonus, he ignores the fact that he's decimated Player E to fewer troops than the next cash is worth. All he cares about is securing his borders with stacks of 8, to ensure he gets that +3 next turn (unaware that the game won't last that long).

Now, what exactly could Player C or D (or E for that matter) done differently to stop B from sweeping the board right here? I guarantee, if you look hard enough, you'll find at least 4-5 instances of this happening in the first round of the Cup.


Like I said, that's part of the game. Player A has almost certainly made moves towards gaining Africa, or whatever bonus it is he is trying to obtain earlier in the game, and my guess is that Players B, C, and D have recognized that and moved their troops out of his way.

In every 5 player game, there are going to be 4 losers, and we all know this. There is no right strategy for ConquerClub, simply more effective and less effective ones. Assuming that Player A's score is not zero, then we can safely assume that he has had some success and that his strategy is at least somewhat effective, regardless of how you view it.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby Dako on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:45 am

drunkmonkey wrote:Not really. Look at this scenario, which happens in lots of games with "inexperienced" players.

-Everyone has 4-5 spoils
-Player A cashes for 20, uses it to take Africa (or a similar bonus, which is inconsequential at this point in the game). By focusing solely on his new bonus, he ignores the fact that he's decimated Player E to fewer troops than the next cash is worth. All he cares about is securing his borders with stacks of 8, to ensure he gets that +3 next turn (unaware that the game won't last that long).

Now, what exactly could Player C or D (or E for that matter) done differently to stop B from sweeping the board right here? I guarantee, if you look hard enough, you'll find at least 4-5 instances of this happening in the first round of the Cup.

Predicting what noobs are likely to do is part of the skill. Dont' palce your troops in a continent that noob is trying to hold just to be eliminated and prove that he is a noob. Use it, know that he will take other plaeyrs out of this continent and gun for them knowing he will help you to get some of their terrs. Start from Asia, NA, Europe and keep your stacks there.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby spiesr on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:34 pm

Dako wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:Not really. Look at this scenario, which happens in lots of games with "inexperienced" players.

-Everyone has 4-5 spoils
-Player A cashes for 20, uses it to take Africa (or a similar bonus, which is inconsequential at this point in the game). By focusing solely on his new bonus, he ignores the fact that he's decimated Player E to fewer troops than the next cash is worth. All he cares about is securing his borders with stacks of 8, to ensure he gets that +3 next turn (unaware that the game won't last that long).

Now, what exactly could Player C or D (or E for that matter) done differently to stop B from sweeping the board right here? I guarantee, if you look hard enough, you'll find at least 4-5 instances of this happening in the first round of the Cup.

Predicting what noobs are likely to do is part of the skill. Dont' palce your troops in a continent that noob is trying to hold just to be eliminated and prove that he is a noob. Use it, know that he will take other plaeyrs out of this continent and gun for them knowing he will help you to get some of their terrs. Start from Asia, NA, Europe and keep your stacks there.
But in the example given, Players C & D may have done just that, but then lost due to the combined mistakes of Players A & E. They may have seen Player A's mistake coming, but simply not been in a position where there were any winning moves they could make.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby denominator on Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:38 pm

spiesr wrote:
Dako wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:Not really. Look at this scenario, which happens in lots of games with "inexperienced" players.

-Everyone has 4-5 spoils
-Player A cashes for 20, uses it to take Africa (or a similar bonus, which is inconsequential at this point in the game). By focusing solely on his new bonus, he ignores the fact that he's decimated Player E to fewer troops than the next cash is worth. All he cares about is securing his borders with stacks of 8, to ensure he gets that +3 next turn (unaware that the game won't last that long).

Now, what exactly could Player C or D (or E for that matter) done differently to stop B from sweeping the board right here? I guarantee, if you look hard enough, you'll find at least 4-5 instances of this happening in the first round of the Cup.

Predicting what noobs are likely to do is part of the skill. Dont' palce your troops in a continent that noob is trying to hold just to be eliminated and prove that he is a noob. Use it, know that he will take other plaeyrs out of this continent and gun for them knowing he will help you to get some of their terrs. Start from Asia, NA, Europe and keep your stacks there.
But in the example given, Players C & D may have done just that, but then lost due to the combined mistakes of Players A & E. They may have seen Player A's mistake coming, but simply not been in a position where there were any winning moves they could make.


Again, that's the way the game works. Would you view it differently had Player A not made a mistake, but instead cashed and steamrolled the board? I suspect not, because you view that as the "correct" strategy.

Just because a player is using a different strategy in these games doesn't make it incorrect, or your strategy the better one.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:49 pm

denominator wrote:Again, that's the way the game works. Would you view it differently had Player A not made a mistake, but instead cashed and steamrolled the board? I suspect not, because you view that as the "correct" strategy.

Just because a player is using a different strategy in these games doesn't make it incorrect, or your strategy the better one.


Yes, I would have seen winning the game as the correct strategy, as opposed to making a move that directly allows someone else to win the game. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying that using a large cash to take a small bonus, while leaving another player for dead, is ever is a good strategy?
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby spiesr on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:33 pm

denominator wrote:Again, that's the way the game works. Would you view it differently had Player A not made a mistake, but instead cashed and steamrolled the board? I suspect not, because you view that as the "correct" strategy.

Just because a player is using a different strategy in these games doesn't make it incorrect, or your strategy the better one.
My point wasn't so much about what strategy was correct, rather than to point out that it is possible to lose this type of game through no major fault of your own. I accept that to be the nature of the game. However, I think that it illustrates why single elimination rounds with these settings is not the ideal setup for a paid tournament.
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Re: Conquer Cup I

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:34 pm

spiesr wrote:
denominator wrote:Again, that's the way the game works. Would you view it differently had Player A not made a mistake, but instead cashed and steamrolled the board? I suspect not, because you view that as the "correct" strategy.

Just because a player is using a different strategy in these games doesn't make it incorrect, or your strategy the better one.
My point wasn't so much about what strategy was correct, rather than to point out that it is possible to lose this type of game through no major fault of your own. I accept that to be the nature of the game. However, I think that it illustrates why single elimination rounds with these settings is not the ideal setup for a paid tournament.


We agree. Conquer Cup II will have multiple games per round I think, so if you manage to take a bad beat in one game, you still have some other games which can allow you to advance!


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