New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:53 am

Mr Changsha wrote:There are paying members throughout the scoreboard who should be treated equally by CC and so, therefore, should have the right to play any game they want and win and lose points in any game as well.


In principle you could have a farming-free system that allows the best to play against the worst AND for points to always be exchanged.

However, the points exchanged would have to be calculated so that it is not a lucrative harvesting technique to farm the lower ranked as it currently is.

What I mean by this, is that if players of a certain skill level can win 95% of games against players of a lower skill level, if the high ranked player wins 1 point for each victory and loses 19 for each loss, it would not be a lucrative farming technique, because in the long term it would even out +19 - 19 = 0. Historical data can be used to determine how many points should be exchanged so that peer play is more lucrative than playing someone much lower in skill.

I'm only endorsing the "band aid" approach to limit harvesting techniques because the mods ignore all suggestions to change the scoring formula to stop farming. So since we cannot increase the amount of points the low ranked get from beating the highest ranked, the only resort is to limit exchange of points from known points harvesting techniques altogether.

I'm glad you guys are in favor of changing the scoring system. But I think the people who run this site are misunderstanding your opposition to clamp down on farming techniques as support for the status quo.

Back to my suggested band-aid:

Do you seriously think the harm of preventing cooks teams from gaining/losing points if they beat a team of 4 brigadiers on Waterloo outweighs the good it would do to the system by curtailing point harvesting? Look at the historical data. The cooks teams in question lost 60 out of 60 games to players in the top 0.5% of the scoreboard. Also, as you pointed out, they practically never win in large escalating games either. So actually, they lose nothing by not gaining points from winning because they are unable to win under these map settings.

If further point harvesting can be prevented, the inflation will stop. Eventually, the highest scores will deflate into ranges that are more conducive to peer play under the current scoring system.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby ws1 on Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:59 pm

check out PFO. perfect example
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby ws1 on Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:05 am

befa75 another example
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby BoganGod on Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:42 am

Naming people like that, not cool bro. Act of a *^&%*(insert derogitory expletive of most insulting nature)! If your not, then retract. I don't know either players but think is a low act on your part. After less than 100games do you even know enough about the game to comment? I'm definately not the most skilled player on site.... But have found that when I lose to higher ranked players I can learn a lot about tactics and pick up a lot of useful little tricks. Deliberate targeting of lower ranked players is a negative tactic and is ultimately illogical(get more points from beating higher ranked opponent eh). Slagging people off and naming them is also negative. If you have a problem with someone, report to moderators, or go to flame wars. :cry:
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby PFO on Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:42 pm

WS1 what makes you say I am farming for points? I signed up for a game against you. I do not play to get a ranking or points. I play because it is fun to me. I have played over 900 games, I don't miss turns and I am not bitter or mean to people in any of my games. Personally I usually play 2 person sequential games because they are the most fun to me. I honestly don't care if the point system changes to stop people from farming points. I play for fun and to try to prove it to you, I'll play against you anytime, just invite me to a game. Just don't randomly accuse me of something I am not.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby cicero on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:59 pm

WS1 if you have a substantiated allegation to make please make a report in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum.

In any event this thread is to discuss the Newbie Farming announcement. It is not to discuss individual players.

If this post raises any questions or comments, please PM me.

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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby owenshooter on Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:48 pm

FarangDemon wrote:The majority of the community (this includes people of all ranks) prefers a system where you cannot get to the top by farming.

is this the 74% that you have yet to prove exists yet OR a different majority. i could get behind you, if you would just stop making up numers and polls and data that don't truly exist and have no factual backing or existence.-0
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:08 pm

owenshooter wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:The majority of the community (this includes people of all ranks) prefers a system where you cannot get to the top by farming.

is this the 74% that you have yet to prove exists yet OR a different majority. i could get behind you, if you would just stop making up numers and polls and data that don't truly exist and have no factual backing or existence.-0


http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=70978&p=1749217&hilit=solution#p1749217
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby owenshooter on Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:20 pm

FarangDemon wrote:
owenshooter wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:The majority of the community (this includes people of all ranks) prefers a system where you cannot get to the top by farming.

is this the 74% that you have yet to prove exists yet OR a different majority. i could get behind you, if you would just stop making up numers and polls and data that don't truly exist and have no factual backing or existence.-0


http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=70978&p=1749217&hilit=solution#p1749217


that is a poll with a total of 40 votes!!! that is FAR from a majority on a site with over 20K members... in fact, you are showing me a poll where 19 people agreed with you!!! so, let's toss that claim out the window, it is false. a majority of 40 is not a majority of CC. if you are going to base all of this off of forum polls, you need to realize that less than 3% of CC members visit the forums on a regular basis. sorry, but that 73% shown in the link you posted is not an accurate sampling of the CC community on a whole...-0

p.s.-before lack made his farming changes, he contacted current and former members that had left the site after a few games to find out why. this took a lot of time and a ton
of effort, but he wanted actual input into what the problem was, and how it was perceived by current and former players. he didn't just come into the forums and ask 40 people for an opinion!
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:41 pm

The sampling may be small, but 73% of those responding are agreeing with Demon. Yes, it would be a more accurate indication of the communities druthers, if there were more payers in the poll. My guess is the number would be higher, if that were the case. 8-)
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Jeff Hardy on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:16 pm

porkenbeans wrote:The sampling may be small, but 73% of those responding are agreeing with Demon. Yes, it would be a more accurate indication of the communities druthers, if there were more payers in the poll. My guess is the number would be higher, if that were the case. 8-)

but your guess is nothing more than that, a guess
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby owenshooter on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:29 pm

Jeff Hardy wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:The sampling may be small, but 73% of those responding are agreeing with Demon. Yes, it would be a more accurate indication of the communities druthers, if there were more payers in the poll. My guess is the number would be higher, if that were the case. 8-)

but your guess is nothing more than that, a guess

and it is still a total of 19 people voting yes, hardly the roaring depiction given by Farang... lack has taken positive steps towards the problem, and i am sure there will be more in the future. i trust him, he has guided his baby this far with great success, and i believe it is safe to say he has alot more at stake than those of you still ranting about farming...-0
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Artimis on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:37 pm

owenshooter wrote:i trust him, he has guided his baby this far with great success, and i believe it is safe to say he has alot more at stake than those of you still ranting about farming...-0


I second that statement.

Further more I refer you to my response in GD: Re: are mods disorganized or actively preserving harvesting
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:53 pm

Jeff Hardy wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:The sampling may be small, but 73% of those responding are agreeing with Demon. Yes, it would be a more accurate indication of the communities druthers, if there were more payers in the poll. My guess is the number would be higher, if that were the case. 8-)

but your guess is nothing more than that, a guess
Just a bit more than just a guess. As, it is an educated guess. taking in to account that, the evidence shows there to be a higher percentage of farmers and the like, in the forum than their numbers are among the whole community. That would mean that the poll numbers are slightly skewed. I have brought up, this point of contention in the past, and not once have I received a rebuttal. But even if this were not so, 73% is a pretty decisive poll all by itself.

I am not ranting any longer about the "farming" problem.
But that does not mean that I cant comment in this thread. For the record, I do not have that much interest in the scoring system any longer. Lack and his crew are doing what they think is best on that front. What ever they do, is just fine with me.

I have found that the foundry offers much more enjoyment from this site than the leaderboard.
please come check out some maps that I have been working on. I hope you don't mind if I stick my head in now and then, and say hello.

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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby FarangDemon on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:03 am

73% from a sample size of 40 people out of a population of 22,449 has a maximum of +/- 15% margin of error, given 95% confidence level.

Math need not conform to common sense. It conforms to mathematical reasoning. If you don't have it, you cannot disprove a mathematical argument.

Calculate it yourselves if you don't believe me. http://www.isixsigma.com/offsite.asp?A=Fr&Url=http://www.raosoft.com/samplesize.html

Check this table: http://www.isixsigma.com/library/content/c040607a.asp

Accept it and move on. Find something else to rail on.

farangdemon wrote:2. You claim that this isn't about you, when it clearly is about you. What you don't seem to understand is that, when someone makes a suggestion that would directly benefit him/her, people will naturally be suspicious.


This is my favorite. That I am a bogeyman for wanting a scoring system where you cannot farm to get to the top. That this is somehow selfish and I'm the only one who wants this or will benefit.

Ever check out Sugs and Bugs? There are tons of people and mods working together to solve this problem. And there are plenty of other ways to do it than by restricting maps and game types between unskilled vs skilled players. I said the whole time that this was just a bandaid to a failed scoring system anyway.

I am actively contributing to many different sugs and bugs. I currently advocate another method but I'm afraid to mention it for fear of drawing out trolls from under their bridges, so I'll let it be.

In short, find something different to disagree with me about because I'm not beholden to any one solution. There are many possible ways to solve the problem.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby owenshooter on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:14 am

lackattack wrote:
We have taken the following measures to stop Newbie Farming:

  • For New Recruits, we filtered out game options from the join page if they reduce the chance of new players reaching their 1st promotion (see here here and here).
  • We shut down any usergroups with a focus on Newbie Farming.
  • We are sending individual warnings to the Farmers Guild and select other users who have practiced farming in the past. These should be arriving soon.

If you don't officially receive a warning, consider this it...we may have overlooked you once, but we won't do it again.

Thanks and have a nice day :)


great first steps lack, this is a wonderful start to resolving a very difficult situation. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
thank you for taking the time to poll an actual sample of current and former players to find out how farming truly affected your amazing site, and then taking the measures to begin to snuff it out!! thanks again!! wonderful start to resolving all this!!-0
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:21 am

FarangDemon wrote:73% from a sample size of 40 people out of a population of 22,449 has a maximum of +/- 15% margin of error, given 95% confidence level.

Math need not conform to common sense. It conforms to mathematical reasoning. If you don't have it, you cannot disprove a mathematical argument.

Calculate it yourselves if you don't believe me. http://www.isixsigma.com/offsite.asp?A=Fr&Url=http://www.raosoft.com/samplesize.html

Check this table: http://www.isixsigma.com/library/content/c040607a.asp

Accept it and move on. Find something else to rail on.

farangdemon wrote:2. You claim that this isn't about you, when it clearly is about you. What you don't seem to understand is that, when someone makes a suggestion that would directly benefit him/her, people will naturally be suspicious.


This is my favorite. That I am a bogeyman for wanting a scoring system where you cannot farm to get to the top. That this is somehow selfish and I'm the only one who wants this or will benefit.

Ever check out Sugs and Bugs? There are tons of people and mods working together to solve this problem. And there are plenty of other ways to do it than by restricting maps and game types between unskilled vs skilled players. I said the whole time that this was just a bandaid to a failed scoring system anyway.

I am actively contributing to many different sugs and bugs. I currently advocate another method but I'm afraid to mention it for fear of drawing out trolls from under their bridges, so I'll let it be.

In short, find something different to disagree with me about because I'm not beholden to any one solution. There are many possible ways to solve the problem.
I agree with everything you said, but it has all been said before. The powers that be have heard every word. They are going to do what they think is best. So I would advise you, my friend, to give up the crusade. ...I have. 8-)

The snarling cat is dead. Now I'm just "LOST". :lol:
Last edited by porkenbeans on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Incandenza on Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:22 am

FarangDemon wrote:I am actively contributing to many different sugs and bugs. I currently advocate another method but I'm afraid to mention it for fear of drawing out trolls from under their bridges, so I'll let it be.


If you're unable to discern between logical rebuttals of your various arguments and trolling, then I fear that no common ground can be found. It's a shame, because you raise some good points, but your lack of rhetorical prowess and your inability to even soften your ludicrous "73% of CC agrees with me and anyone who doesn't is in the substantial minority" statement tend to overshadow them.

I wish you good luck in your future endeavors, inasmuch as they do not conflict with mine.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby FarangDemon on Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:04 am

Incandenza wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:I am actively contributing to many different sugs and bugs. I currently advocate another method but I'm afraid to mention it for fear of drawing out trolls from under their bridges, so I'll let it be.


If you're unable to discern between logical rebuttals of your various arguments and trolling, then I fear that no common ground can be found. It's a shame, because you raise some good points, but your lack of rhetorical prowess and your inability to even soften your ludicrous "73% of CC agrees with me and anyone who doesn't is in the substantial minority" statement tend to overshadow them.

I wish you good luck in your future endeavors, inasmuch as they do not conflict with mine.


I don't mean everybody who disagrees with me is a troll. But you must admit that most of my posts, even mundane non-farming ones, attract them.

Do you still disagree with the margin of error calculation? It indicates that it is in fact the majority opinion, to a 95% level of confidence. I don't expect everybody to know how to calculate this. I had to look it up myself because it had been a long time.

Actually, when I conducted that poll, I thought it would lose because so many people had been flaming my posts. But I went through with it anyway because deep down I hoped that there must be others who agree.

I tried my best to explain the math behind it. If people can't figure out stuff for themselves then they will just go for whatever sounds the best. Perhaps my silver tongue will not win them over. That's ok.

Thanks and good luck to you, too.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby demonfork on Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:53 am

FarangDemon wrote:
Incandenza wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:I am actively contributing to many different sugs and bugs. I currently advocate another method but I'm afraid to mention it for fear of drawing out trolls from under their bridges, so I'll let it be.


If you're unable to discern between logical rebuttals of your various arguments and trolling, then I fear that no common ground can be found. It's a shame, because you raise some good points, but your lack of rhetorical prowess and your inability to even soften your ludicrous "73% of CC agrees with me and anyone who doesn't is in the substantial minority" statement tend to overshadow them.

I wish you good luck in your future endeavors, inasmuch as they do not conflict with mine.


I don't mean everybody who disagrees with me is a troll. But you must admit that most of my posts, even mundane non-farming ones, attract them.

Do you still disagree with the margin of error calculation? It indicates that it is in fact the majority opinion, to a 95% level of confidence. I don't expect everybody to know how to calculate this. I had to look it up myself because it had been a long time.

Actually, when I conducted that poll, I thought it would lose because so many people had been flaming my posts. But I went through with it anyway because deep down I hoped that there must be others who agree.

I tried my best to explain the math behind it. If people can't figure out stuff for themselves then they will just go for whatever sounds the best. Perhaps my silver tongue will not win them over. That's ok.

Thanks and good luck to you, too.


Big problem with your calculation guy.

taken from the link you provided....

"How many people are there to choose your random sample from? The sample size doesn't change much for populations larger than 20,000."

I put in bold the important words here!

RANDOM SAMPLE!!!!

I would 100% agree with your calculation had you randomly picked 40 CC members from a pool of 20,000 and then polled those members.

I would like to further point out that a +/- 15% margin of error is quite high, If you wanted to achieve a typical +/- 5% margin of error then your random lot sampling should be in the neighborhood of 375 people out of 20,000
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby FarangDemon on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:09 pm

demonfork wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:
Incandenza wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:I am actively contributing to many different sugs and bugs. I currently advocate another method but I'm afraid to mention it for fear of drawing out trolls from under their bridges, so I'll let it be.


If you're unable to discern between logical rebuttals of your various arguments and trolling, then I fear that no common ground can be found. It's a shame, because you raise some good points, but your lack of rhetorical prowess and your inability to even soften your ludicrous "73% of CC agrees with me and anyone who doesn't is in the substantial minority" statement tend to overshadow them.

I wish you good luck in your future endeavors, inasmuch as they do not conflict with mine.


I don't mean everybody who disagrees with me is a troll. But you must admit that most of my posts, even mundane non-farming ones, attract them.

Do you still disagree with the margin of error calculation? It indicates that it is in fact the majority opinion, to a 95% level of confidence. I don't expect everybody to know how to calculate this. I had to look it up myself because it had been a long time.

Actually, when I conducted that poll, I thought it would lose because so many people had been flaming my posts. But I went through with it anyway because deep down I hoped that there must be others who agree.

I tried my best to explain the math behind it. If people can't figure out stuff for themselves then they will just go for whatever sounds the best. Perhaps my silver tongue will not win them over. That's ok.

Thanks and good luck to you, too.


Big problem with your calculation guy.

taken from the link you provided....

"How many people are there to choose your random sample from? The sample size doesn't change much for populations larger than 20,000."

I put in bold the important words here!

RANDOM SAMPLE!!!!

I would 100% agree with your calculation had you randomly picked 40 CC members from a pool of 20,000 and then polled those members.

I would like to further point out that a +/- 15% margin of error is quite high, If you wanted to achieve a typical +/- 5% margin of error then your random lot sampling should be in the neighborhood of 375 people out of 20,000


I am not able to compel anyone to vote in any poll, so the best I can do is create a poll and hope people vote. That is as random as any poll can reasonably get here. And in practice, randomness of sampling is assumed as long as there is no evidence of bias in the method of selection.

If you understand margin of error, then you will know that the true opinion will fall inside the margins of error 95% of the time, given a confidence level of 95%, which is what I used. So there is a 95% chance that the true opinion is between 58% and 88% in favor. The margin of error is higher than most polls, but the proportion in favor is so high that the results are still conclusive.

That being said, I believe this poll was conducted before the restrictions on New Recruits were announced. If so, that might suggest that current support would not be as high. Now that would be the kind of argument that I cannot refute. But please don't try to pretend that the results of this poll are somehow inconclusive when it is clearly not the case.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby scottp on Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:32 pm

reading only the last three or so posts, i'm compelled to make a comment on the value of any poll here.

a "random sample" cannot be "compiled" by putting a poll on a forum.

there are X members of CC.

some % of X members actually ever visit the forums, call that group Y.

only some % of Y ever actually POSTS or VOTES in the forums. call that group Z.

Z is not representative of X. Z is a specialized subset of X.

the results of a random sampling of Z would not scale up to be representative of X.

That doesn't even take into account the inherent uncertainty in any particular poll question due to possible self-selection bias (either pros or cons may hold their feelings more strongly and thus be more likely to vote than the other side).

ACCURATE polling is a very complex of a subject.

Your results are indisputable. What they actually mean is anybody's guess.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby lackattack on Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:24 pm

lackattack wrote:[list][*] For New Recruits, we filtered out game options from the join page if they reduce the chance of new players reaching their 1st promotion.


instructions wrote:New Recruits must earn a promotion to join Assassin games, Terminator games, team games, large games (6 or more players) and games on complex maps (they will be hidden from Join A Game and Game Finder listings). These restrictions do not apply to private games.


(emphasis added)
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