New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:20 am

daydream wrote:
hulmey wrote:^^^well cya....However and this is directed at the admins! You cant chop and changes rules as you please. Some people have paid for a product and you go and change it, tsk tsk. Its only $25 and thats why i wont take the matter further ;)


haven't you left a few times already?


Every good company moves with the times and tweaks their product as they deem best, poor companies ignore problems and lose business. As for taking the matter further you could always start up a site to accomodate those you feel have been hard done by :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby MuEagles79 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:09 pm

aren't these new rules reading some intent into the new members and basically saying they have no idea what games they are joining?

seems a little paternalistic to me but it is the moderators site so they can run it how they want to.

I do remember getting housed plenty of times in my early games just from being inexperienced. How does one learn good strategy if one is forced to play against other new members?
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:27 pm

MuEagles79 wrote:aren't these new rules reading some intent into the new members and basically saying they have no idea what games they are joining?

seems a little paternalistic to me but it is the moderators site so they can run it how they want to.

I do remember getting housed plenty of times in my early games just from being inexperienced. How does one learn good strategy if one is forced to play against other new members?
Just as Kindergartners go to class with other Kindergartners. They are not thrown in with seniors in high school. Where is the contest in that ?
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:48 pm

demonfork wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
Itrade wrote:I used to set up loads and loads of cardless foggy 8-player Age of Merchant maps. I did this because between the deadbeats and people who didn't understand the map, my chances of winning were highly increased, and every so often when a skilled player would join the games, he would provide a challenge and some fun.

It was only when someone called me a noob farmer did I look up what that meant and realize that a huge majority of the members I was playing against were new recruits. That wasn't my intention when I made the maps, I had made it so I could either play against people who knew the map well and provided a good challenge or against people who knew the map less than me so that I had a better chance against them. If I had a way to stop the new recruits from joining the game, I would've used it.

Now I don't have to find a way to stop new recruits from joining my game because Lack's done that for me! Yay! This update is awesome!
You are not Noob farming when you start a public game. You are not intentionally going after new recruits. Unless you pm them to join your games. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing.



Really? I think a game like that is just the type they are trying to stop. Who would want to play a no cards foggy on that map? Not many at all. Hence the point farmers, picked maps like Circus Maximus, Battle For Iraq, Waterloo, etc. They knew normal people did not like those settings generally, so they would get noobs who just click the first game they see on the join a game page.


The day they make rules that restrict players from starting a no cards foggy battle for Iraq game, or any other type of game with similar settings, is the day I decide to not renew my premium!
Bruce, Starting a public game is NOT directly targeting new recruits. Anyone from cook to Conquer might join. I believe that what Lack and crew are trying to stop, is, The direct targeting of Newbies. Be it through joining new recruits games to PMing them for games. He is not trying to prevent all the different ranks from playing each other. Just those that seem to have a specific diet for newbies. He has already explained the reasoning for the changes in policy. From the integrity of the scoreboard to the retention of members. Any person of wisdom can clearly see that CC will benefit from these new rules, and overall attitude of the site.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby MuEagles79 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:30 pm

porkenbeans wrote:
MuEagles79 wrote:aren't these new rules reading some intent into the new members and basically saying they have no idea what games they are joining?

seems a little paternalistic to me but it is the moderators site so they can run it how they want to.

I do remember getting housed plenty of times in my early games just from being inexperienced. How does one learn good strategy if one is forced to play against other new members?
Just as Kindergartners go to class with other Kindergartners. They are not thrown in with seniors in high school. Where is the contest in that ?


your logic is completely faulty unless you believe only people of similar ranks/experience should be playing each other

most of us on this site are adults and know the repercussions of the decisions we make on this site(ie. joining games). The rules for all games are clearly spelled out on the boards and on the websites rules link.

I do agree that users specifically sending PM's to new members is a disgusting tactic and should be banned.

I just see a slippery slope here of determining what constitutes "newbie farming". How many games does one member have to play against new members to constitute farming? Does a game need to have all new members in it to be considered farming?

None of these things have been defined by the mods. In order to obey the laws, one needs to know what the laws are. right now, these are just guidelines.

With all the being said, I agree with what the mods are doing here..it just needs to be much more clearly defined.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby MuEagles79 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:35 pm

porkenbeans wrote:
demonfork wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
Itrade wrote:I used to set up loads and loads of cardless foggy 8-player Age of Merchant maps. I did this because between the deadbeats and people who didn't understand the map, my chances of winning were highly increased, and every so often when a skilled player would join the games, he would provide a challenge and some fun.

It was only when someone called me a noob farmer did I look up what that meant and realize that a huge majority of the members I was playing against were new recruits. That wasn't my intention when I made the maps, I had made it so I could either play against people who knew the map well and provided a good challenge or against people who knew the map less than me so that I had a better chance against them. If I had a way to stop the new recruits from joining the game, I would've used it.

Now I don't have to find a way to stop new recruits from joining my game because Lack's done that for me! Yay! This update is awesome!
You are not Noob farming when you start a public game. You are not intentionally going after new recruits. Unless you pm them to join your games. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing.



Really? I think a game like that is just the type they are trying to stop. Who would want to play a no cards foggy on that map? Not many at all. Hence the point farmers, picked maps like Circus Maximus, Battle For Iraq, Waterloo, etc. They knew normal people did not like those settings generally, so they would get noobs who just click the first game they see on the join a game page.


The day they make rules that restrict players from starting a no cards foggy battle for Iraq game, or any other type of game with similar settings, is the day I decide to not renew my premium!
Bruce, Starting a public game is NOT directly targeting new recruits. Anyone from cook to Conquer might join. I believe that what Lack and crew are trying to stop, is, The direct targeting of Newbies. Be it through joining new recruits games to PMing them for games. He is not trying to prevent all the different ranks from playing each other. Just those that seem to have a specific diet for newbies. He has already explained the reasoning for the changes in policy. From the integrity of the scoreboard to the retention of members. Any person of wisdom can clearly see that CC will benefit from these new rules, and overall attitude of the site.


Pork....I agree with you that Lack & Crew's intent is clear and wise. However, the intent is not reflected in the current laws/guidelines. I think a lot of us are afraid of being unfairly targeted by mods. Right now as the law/guidelines stand, any member who plays too many games against new members will be de-ranked and possibly banned. What the hell constitutes too many games? You can't because it isn't defined.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:38 pm

Agreed. I would imagine that this is in the works.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby aldaluin on Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:42 pm

I thought a little perspective from a noob might be useful. I learned about CC a couple of weeks ago from some friends with free time at work, and played my first couple of games only with them. Got lucky with an early win and made PFC before I knew what it was. Since then I've stretched my wings a little and sunk to Cadet.

There aren't any guidelines about what kinds of games to join / avoid. As a common-sense measure, I stuck to options similar to a board game (ahem...) I've played from time to time. I stayed on boards with simple bonus and movement rules (e.g. Great Lakes). I didn't know it was possible for anyone to invite me to join games; wasn't aware of the Callouts forum (still haven't been there...). I don't *think* I've been farmed - I've just been more enthusiastic than skilled. Anyway, it might be good to have some guidelines in the Instructions section somewhere. I suspect it might do more good to (subtly) show noobs how to avoid farmers than to try to enforce subjective rules against the practice.

A clearly marked area restricted to, say, people who don't have any achievement awards, would have helped to make me feel capable, whether I won or not. After three or four losses in a row, I was feeling like dropping off and not playing any more. Then there were a couple where I wasn't totally outclassed from the beginning, and so I'm still here and I think I may have a chance in one or two of the games I'm in now.

I guess what I'm rambling on about is that as I read through this thread, it seemed to me that the intent of the new rule was less about farming and more about retaining people after they show up, and lose a game or three, and realize they could participate a *lot* without ever gaining any wins, points or clues.

One last point from a noob's perspective -- it takes a lot less courage to join someone else's game than it does to pick a board yourself, figure out what options might be fun, and then wait a couple of days while everyone ignores you. Guys, don't stop putting up new games for new people just because you might get accused of farming.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:28 pm

I love it.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby 4red on Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:51 pm

Well Done. Its quite funny that lots of the farmers are leaving messages of support for this action. What about map specialization? Well if you foe anyone else who plays that map its farming. Grow some testicular fortitude and have a real game.

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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby kmhebert on Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:08 pm

MuEagles79 wrote:I just see a slippery slope here of determining what constitutes "newbie farming". How many games does one member have to play against new members to constitute farming? Does a game need to have all new members in it to be considered farming?

None of these things have been defined by the mods. In order to obey the laws, one needs to know what the laws are. right now, these are just guidelines.

With all the being said, I agree with what the mods are doing here..it just needs to be much more clearly defined.


This is my basic problem with this. I play a lot of games against new recruits, low ranked players... heh I play a lot of games period. I just do a Game Finder search for 2 players games and join a bunch of them. I skip a lot of the Age of Realms maps but if someone is playing onm a map I like, I join. I don't know what to add, I just don't want to get whacked because I play a lot of games. What are the guidelines?
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby MuEagles79 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:41 pm

kmhebert wrote:
MuEagles79 wrote:I just see a slippery slope here of determining what constitutes "newbie farming". How many games does one member have to play against new members to constitute farming? Does a game need to have all new members in it to be considered farming?

None of these things have been defined by the mods. In order to obey the laws, one needs to know what the laws are. right now, these are just guidelines.

With all the being said, I agree with what the mods are doing here..it just needs to be much more clearly defined.


This is my basic problem with this. I play a lot of games against new recruits, low ranked players... heh I play a lot of games period. I just do a Game Finder search for 2 players games and join a bunch of them. I skip a lot of the Age of Realms maps but if someone is playing onm a map I like, I join. I don't know what to add, I just don't want to get whacked because I play a lot of games. What are the guidelines?


It is a continued problem with "updates" for the website. They are rolled out in a half-assed manner with many bugs. This isn't to say that the work done on the updates by the mods is half-assed. I appreciate all they do to keep this site up and running in a functional manner. I am just shocked though that something like this could be rolled out without addressing some major and simple issues presented via the updates.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby MuEagles79 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:43 pm

porkenbeans wrote:Agreed. I would imagine that this is in the works.


I assume it is too but this shouldn't have been rolled out without these definitions in place.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:10 pm

MuEagles79 wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:Agreed. I would imagine that this is in the works.


I assume it is too but this shouldn't have been rolled out without these definitions in place.
Maybe lack was just giving a heads up. So players would not be so surprised when the new rules come down.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Nephilim on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:40 pm

love it, great work lack and friends......maybe now i can make it a bit higher on the board 8-)

and to comment on what others have said: dude with the caveman attorney avy, it is not necessarily true that "most of us on the site are adults." a big part of this problem is kids coming in, joining games, deadbeating......and farmers recognizing this and stealing the easy points.

and a big "yup" to everyone who has pointed out the need for more clarity on the new "rules".......i'm sure they will get around to it!

cheers and happy new year, CC
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Hotdoggie on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:51 pm

lame...jst lame
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Aradhus on Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:08 am

porkenbeans wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
Aradhus wrote:So.. How much research was actually done on this subject? (Or did the "research" amount to 20 to 30 regulars everyday screaming "farmers farmers kill them ban them they ruin teh siiiteeeeee!" until the admin couldn't take it anymore..

1 - If somebody sent me a personal message minutes after I joined this site, asking me if I wanted to play a game, I would have thought "wow, this looks like a friendly place."

2 - Would I have gotten my ass kicked? Yes, actually my first game I did get my ass kicked, and I'm pretty positive that stands for about 99%(at least) of all the players that join CC. Regardless of who they played.

3 - If there was research done on farming etc, new players, the like, is it available to the'community'? Can I read it, andwas any information compiled on freestyle team farming, uh I mean games. Freestyle team games, I said farming, I meant games.
look whos' screaming now. lol. :lol:
You guys just do not get it. People come here to play risk, ...NOT rape the newbie.



What the hell are you talking about? Why did you quote my post?

Have you read the rules to this forum? Exactly what contribution did your post make to the topic?

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Your post makes no sense in context with my post. You're an imbecile, even you don't know what you are saying.

I personally think this 'new rule' is idiotic, lacks insight, and will potentially demonize people(just as you like to do). That has nothing to do with me thinking farming is ok, or that I farm as you claim. You're an idiot, go kill yourself.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Itrade on Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:10 am

Now now, no need to get so harsh. If we don't want him contiminating the gene pool we can just castrate him. That way he can still live the rest of his life, albeit in some sort of freak show somewhere. I'm sure loads of people would pay to see The Incredible Stupidest Man on Earth or whatever his show would be called.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby obliterationX on Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:09 am

The only way a newbie can learn is by being exploited at the cold hands of a seemingly kind and friendly noob farmer.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby mikeyfranz on Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:10 am

What if you could solve the problem of newbie farming mathematically? For example, what if Newbies started with 200 points instead of 1000 points. Then if a player with 2000 points, beats a newbie with 200 points, he will only receive 1 point instead of 10 points.

The problem is that by starting with 1000 points, a newbie has more points than he's worth. If you have 3000 points, you have probably earned it. If you have 1000 points you might not necessarily be worth that many yet, therefore you become a potentially easy target for a farmer.

If imposed I think all other players scores should also drop by 800, and the numbers associated with ranking changes should also be adjusted accordingly so nobody drops rank. Perhaps 200 isn't the right number either. Maybe it's 500, or 100, or 0, but I think this concept is worth considering. I also don't know how it would work if a player got below 0, but I would love to hear people's suggestions and comments on this idea.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby FarangDemon on Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:24 am

First of all, I applaud the effort toward making CC more competitive. It's a great first step.

MuEagles79 wrote:your logic is completely faulty unless you believe only people of similar ranks/experience should be playing each other


Some people do desire a ranking system that would indicate that a player ranked higher than another player tends to beat them head-to-head. The current system does not always indicate this because there are many techniques for inflating your score without playing peers, as the OP has stated.

Many suggestions are being discussed in sugs and bugs on scoring system reform / scoreboard reform with regard to this aim. Some are band-aid approaches which might be more readily implemented in the near term, but do not solve the whole problem (i.e. performing some function on the current scores that takes into account proportion of peer-to-peer playing). Some suggestions are more radical, for altering the scoring system so that farming is actually impossible - this would be the simplest and most effective solution.

Not sure what the majority of CCers think because very few members take part in polls. That being said, every poll I've seen has been in favor of implementing anything that would make it harder to get ahead by farming or at least provide some recognition to players who do not farm (according to some best guess consensus mathematical formula).

We will see how far CC leadership will go toward addressing these concerns.

MuEagles79 wrote:I just see a slippery slope here of determining what constitutes "newbie farming".



Very good point. Like some other posters said, it would be much more effective to change the scoring system to not reward farming on the scale that it currently does than to attempt to define farming on a case by case basis and create a set of possibly cumbersome rules.

It's like fighting the war on drugs by arresting individual users without realizing that the war can never be won as long as demand remains high.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:12 am

obliterationX wrote:The only way a newbie can learn is by being exploited at the cold hands of a seemingly kind and friendly noob farmer.


Not true. A non-farmer can take the person into a game, carefully explaining moves and how to read the board; offering advice on what to stay away from for a while; so that in game #2 the newbie has a fighting chance and some info on how not to get suckered in as a field for plowing.
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby Nephilim on Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:21 am

stahrgazer wrote:
obliterationX wrote:The only way a newbie can learn is by being exploited at the cold hands of a seemingly kind and friendly noob farmer.


Not true. A non-farmer can take the person into a game, carefully explaining moves and how to read the board; offering advice on what to stay away from for a while; so that in game #2 the newbie has a fighting chance and some info on how not to get suckered in as a field for plowing.


you really telling me that you didn't notice the sarcasm in the post you quoted?
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby KoE_Sirius on Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:34 am

King_Herpes wrote:It's about damn time. I mean, how long were you going to let that madness continue? It's an outrage I tell ya! Darn farmers, all they care about is points points points...

Yeah well said KH. =D>
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Re: New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby KoE_Sirius on Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:35 am

Nephilim wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
obliterationX wrote:The only way a newbie can learn is by being exploited at the cold hands of a seemingly kind and friendly noob farmer.


Not true. A non-farmer can take the person into a game, carefully explaining moves and how to read the board; offering advice on what to stay away from for a while; so that in game #2 the newbie has a fighting chance and some info on how not to get suckered in as a field for plowing.


you really telling me that you didn't notice the sarcasm in the post you quoted?

Sarcasm,Do we have that here too? 8-[
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