St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby pmchugh on Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:48 pm

Managed to get a speed medal despite being a freemium :lol:
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:04 pm

Interesting.

As everyone says, the map is purely luck.

Therefore, if someone played enough games on it, then statistically they will just win the appropriate share of games (50% of 2-player / 33.3% of 3-player) etc.

If the percentage is off (and enough games are played statistically), and the map isn't about skill, then ......
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby lancehoch on Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:49 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Interesting.

As everyone says, the map is purely luck.

Therefore, if someone played enough games on it, then statistically they will just win the appropriate share of games (50% of 2-player / 33.3% of 3-player) etc.

If the percentage is off (and enough games are played statistically), and the map isn't about skill, then ......

Yes and no. It is mostly luck, but there is strategy in the luck and there is strategy in when to attack. I was in a three player game where I went for the pot first and put my whole stack on it. The next guy weakened me, the third guy took the pot, but neither the second player or I could attack him back. I was also in another three player game where all three of us reached the pot on the same turn, we spent some time building and then I put a small stack (4) on the pot, and for about 10 rounds, we alternated taking the pot and building. I got lucky later when I put 4 on it again, the first guy could only kill 1, the second guy took it, but it took most of his men. The next time, I took the pot and the one other stack and won.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby neanderpaul14 on Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:43 pm

But why is one of the leprechauns angry looking and the rest happy???
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby pmchugh on Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:14 pm

lancehoch wrote:
DJ Teflon wrote:Interesting.

As everyone says, the map is purely luck.

Therefore, if someone played enough games on it, then statistically they will just win the appropriate share of games (50% of 2-player / 33.3% of 3-player) etc.

If the percentage is off (and enough games are played statistically), and the map isn't about skill, then ......

Yes and no. It is mostly luck, but there is strategy in the luck and there is strategy in when to attack. I was in a three player game where I went for the pot first and put my whole stack on it. The next guy weakened me, the third guy took the pot, but neither the second player or I could attack him back. I was also in another three player game where all three of us reached the pot on the same turn, we spent some time building and then I put a small stack (4) on the pot, and for about 10 rounds, we alternated taking the pot and building. I got lucky later when I put 4 on it again, the first guy could only kill 1, the second guy took it, but it took most of his men. The next time, I took the pot and the one other stack and won.


I agree it depends on the settings and you do need to chose wisely when to attack or not and take cards etc.

But maybe Im only saying this cause my rank is shooting up thanks to this map :D
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby sailorseal on Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:48 pm

I think there should be a poll to see if the map stays
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby redhawk92 on Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:24 pm

it is all luck :lol:
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby oaktown on Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:34 am

sailorseal wrote:I think there should be a poll to see if the map stays

As the mapmaker, I would rather it does NOT stay. We have an active map foundry with very high standards, and I don't want to be the guy who sets the precedent that maps can be developed outside of the system and without public input. If the admins ask/permit me to make something fun and silly to celebrate a holiday that's another thing.

If folks like the gameplay of this map I would suggest they visit the Foundry and voice their support for the development of such a map. I suspect that a map that relies less on the luck of the dice can be made.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby neanderpaul14 on Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:48 am

sailorseal wrote:I think there should be a poll to see if the map stays


I agree with sailorseal.......before just killing this one off let's see what the people think!!!

My apologies to Oaktown who doesn't wish this map to live on bearing his name. But for a pleasant diversion to some of the more serious and thought provoking maps out there I do believe this one could find a place in the hearts of many.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby LLLUUUKKKEEE on Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:13 am

oaktown wrote:
sailorseal wrote:I think there should be a poll to see if the map stays

As the mapmaker, I would rather it does NOT stay. We have an active map foundry with very high standards, and I don't want to be the guy who sets the precedent that maps can be developed outside of the system and without public input. If the admins ask/permit me to make something fun and silly to celebrate a holiday that's another thing.

If folks like the gameplay of this map I would suggest they visit the Foundry and voice their support for the development of such a map. I suspect that a map that relies less on the luck of the dice can be made.

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
It's your turn...................................
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:18 am

If only mapmakers made small maps. There is a dearth of them. That's why this one is proving so popular. The foundry is a collection of individuals discussing their individual projects. It is not just about graphical standards, there is an element of competition too which means simple maps are less attractive ideas to the mapmakers. A map of this kind of ganeplay would be more likely to come about as a team effort. Unless there is a big artistic shift into a post-modern era or something. As it stands, small maps for quick games will continue to be few and far between even though they would be very popular.

Back to the luck issue - the above suggests some very basic strategies may be involved. That is very basic strategy and, you have to have a lot of luck to get to the point of being able to implement it (i.e. never had dodgy dice through the game).

I will rephrase the logical question:

If the map is about luck and basic strategies semi-experienced players would have, then, statistically, a semi-experienced player should win their statistical percentage of games, if they play enough games, statistically? Otherwise, as luck evens itself out statistically, and the player has the required basic strategy, then a mysterious third force must be at work?
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:55 am

it is not much more about luck then any other map, it is however certainly about basic playing skills.
I have won most of the games, in some I got whiped out by only getting 6es on defence. Still a few I won dispite getting a very unlucky start.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:10 am

It's No more about luck than any other map?

So, when it takes 2 turns to get past each neutral, there's pletny of room for strategy?

I guess you can try and put the other player off with comments in Game Chat? Hack into his ISP so he cant take his go? Become an Oil-Baron's mate and get him to bomb your opponent?

Okay, even if we accept this, the question remains: Is there any reason why a player who scores reasonably on a wide range of other maps cannot score reasonably on this map (over a statistically acceptable number of games to allow for dice equalisation)? It is not a map where you can get whooped by an expert since it is new to all.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby pinkflaminko on Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:47 am

AWW come on everyone knows its mostly luck. I lost 250 points from it yesterday, and all of them I would lose the simplest attack of 25 on 5 and then my opponent would win a 3 on 5 and hold the gold because I cant break it, LUCK.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby sailorseal on Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:19 am

Just a FYI oak the XML doe not match the map
Map: "Pot o' Gold"
XML: "Pot of Gold"
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby oaktown on Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:29 am

Is this map all about luck? Well, it is in some ways, and isn't in other ways.

One thing that is certain about this map is that for the first few rounds you really have only one decision to make: roll the dice or don't roll the dice. You have no choice of whom to attack - you have to hit the next neutral clover, and that's it. So those first three or four rounds come down to the dice. As somebody who has taken about 20 turns on this map in many games and taken a total of two territories, I can see that's its going to be very hard to overcome bad dice early on this one. :x

After the first few rounds, however, there are decisions to make - do I go for the Gold? Do I veer off and go after my neighbor? Do I collect cards or stack up my armies? On this map you will have the same choices that you will have on any other map, and you'll be at the mercy of the dice in the same way you will on any other map.

One thing that this map does do is eliminate the luck of the draw. While I don't really know which leprechaun I'll start at, it doesn't really matter so much. On a four or eight player game we're all starting on equal footing, and in odd-player games the only unknown is where the neutrals starts will be.

Again, I think that a map with this kind of play could be made in the Foundry, and even improved upon. There have been other maps started with attack lines radiating from a central objective, the most advanced of which having been the CC Bracket Tourney map from over a year ago. Trouble is they don't get much support and the mapmakers have given up.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby nagerous on Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:45 am

I still haven't won any of these, in my last game he had an army of 3 to take out 3 neutrals then 3 on the pot of gold and he did it.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby HighlanderAttack on Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:04 am

I wish they would keep it for sure. Although 90% is luck especially one on one there is some interesting strategy that comes into play.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby demonfork on Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:10 pm

oaktown wrote:Is this map all about luck? Well, it is in some ways, and isn't in other ways.

One thing that is certain about this map is that for the first few rounds you really have only one decision to make: roll the dice or don't roll the dice. You have no choice of whom to attack - you have to hit the next neutral clover, and that's it. So those first three or four rounds come down to the dice. As somebody who has taken about 20 turns on this map in many games and taken a total of two territories, I can see that's its going to be very hard to overcome bad dice early on this one. :x

After the first few rounds, however, there are decisions to make - do I go for the Gold? Do I veer off and go after my neighbor? Do I collect cards or stack up my armies? On this map you will have the same choices that you will have on any other map, and you'll be at the mercy of the dice in the same way you will on any other map.

One thing that this map does do is eliminate the luck of the draw. While I don't really know which leprechaun I'll start at, it doesn't really matter so much. On a four or eight player game we're all starting on equal footing, and in odd-player games the only unknown is where the neutrals starts will be.

Again, I think that a map with this kind of play could be made in the Foundry, and even improved upon. There have been other maps started with attack lines radiating from a central objective, the most advanced of which having been the CC Bracket Tourney map from over a year ago. Trouble is they don't get much support and the mapmakers have given up.


funny how you mention the bracket tourney map, which hardly resembles "your" map at all..

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=64902&p=1603891&hilit=bracket+tournament#p1603891

and don't say shit about my map

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=73420

which "your" map is an exact copy of.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby pmchugh on Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:17 pm

It is dependant on luck but I still think there is strategy to it.

My Results:
Players Wins/Games
2 20/28
3 1/3
4 1/7
8 2/2

3 and 4 players games are round about what you expect but 2 players and 8 players my win rate is much higher than expected, and I much prefer these sized games to 3-4 players. I think that luck will win or lose you some games but in the end your strategy shows through.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:04 pm

I wish I could find a strategy for this map. Thanks for your ideas oak but they all seem to require the kind of luck I dont have. Help!

oaktown wrote:After the first few rounds, however, there are decisions to make


If you play 1 v 1, the game is often over after the first few rounds.

oaktown wrote:On this map you will have the same choices that you will have on any other map, and you'll be at the mercy of the dice in the same way you will on any other map.


The choice(s) seem to be lose your armies against a neutral, lose your armies against a neutral or do nothing, lose some armies against a neutral next round then get taken out by the player who didn't get taken out by neutral. On other maps with similar gameplay the choices are take a neutral you have a chance on or take a different neutral you have a chance on or do nothing and take a neutral next go easily.

oaktown wrote:do I go for the Gold? Do I veer off and go after my neighbor? Do I collect cards or stack up my armies?


If only these were the choices. To have these choices requires massive luck to have achieved a good position after a couple of rounds. Going for gold is usually impossible. Collecting cards is often impossible. Veering-off is just the same, more neutrals that the dice will kill you on.

if you built up to the point where you are strong enough to do in the neutrals, you're opponent would probably already be in pot of gold-land.

Seriously, I think strategy makes less difference on this map than any other. For example, many other maps with similar gameplay have the option of easier neutrals, where you can collect a card.

That makes it a cool map, don't get me wrong.

There is no strategy that doesn't require good dice as far as I can see. Strategy comes into play after good dice early on.

If anyone has a fool-proof method that proves otherwise please let me know as my luck is bad.

Mapmakers and similar maps
Maybe there are more similarities with the space station map draft than the bracket map. However, the structure is very similar with both, and perhaps the origin of the popularity of this map.

Maybe we lovers of the St Patrick's map should support the development of that one if St Patrick's isn't here to stay? The comments about the map being gimmicky are totally valid.

One way or another, I think there's a big section of the playing population that would enjoy more makes like this one. The mapmakers produce some fantastic maps, often with lots of territories, that produce great stategy games. Its understandable from an artistic pride point of view. Maybe a voice is needed for the folk crying out for more maps that create quick games? And maybe such maps would be quicker to produce? Perhaps we might soon see a couple of variations on this map structure?
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:29 pm

I hope that the Holiday has been a success! As for similar Maps---we always love to see more and more people in the Foundry commenting and advising---so get your bananas in there and help out!


--Andy
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby RjBeals on Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:54 pm

demonfork wrote:and don't say shit about my map
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=73420


wow, i've yet to see that map, but pretty cool.
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:22 pm

why was the map put in beta
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Re: St. Patrick's Day Map and Speed Game Holiday

Postby lackattack on Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:25 pm

Thanks to oaktown and all the other volunteers who made this St. Pat's so special for CC!!!
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