Baltic Crusades

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:56 pm

again thanks, Helix. I have it now, so what do you think? so now a short descriptions and add bonuses, than wait what mods will do with this?
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INFO
Map Name : Baltic Crusade
Cartographer : theBastard
Map Type : WHAT HERE?
Territories : 75, starting positions will be castles and towns, Hanseatic towns and other regions are neutral
Continents : there are 14 Duchies and 5 greater regions
Special Features : three types of settlements which auto-deploy armies, capture 5 castles which represents the highest expansion of Teutonic Order

The map is from 13. - 14. centuries when two military orders (Teutonic Knights and Sword Brethren) captured pagan Baltic lands and bring here christianity. there are historic regions and duchies, also towns of Hanseatic league. it´s medieval era, therefore I build map on the castles and towns - siege and capture them is characteristic for medieval times. therefore auto-deploy in castles and towns would be important.

Helix, I realy do not know what I can write here. I think mostly maps are about the same, only few are realy special and has original ideas. if mods like it o.k., if not I can not do anything with this :D

I can again thank you for your help and support.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:00 am

Looks pretty good, definitely better than your first try. I think you grabbed the requirements for what is supposed to be at the beginning of your thread. The design brief is at the top of the forum.

Map Name: The Baltic Crusades
Link to Thread: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=107186&start=75
Mapmaker(s): theBastard
Map Size: 75 Territories, Castles and towns are starting positions.
Your aims/design style: To capture the spirit of the medieval period and the Baltic Crusades, notably the siege of castles and towns.
Uniqueness: There aren't any Baltic area maps yet created on CC, though one in the foundry. It focuses on the Medieval period which isn't uncommon but most historical maps on CC have a very western centric focus, this map will draw attention to the lesser known Baltic Crusades. The map features Castles and Towns and gives players a strategy experience set in the medieval period, drawing attention to the importance of trade between towns and castles, as well as long term siege.
Relevant Experience: I'd say you're just learning but learning fast.

Also, about the font... on second thought it might be alright. The lowercase reads pretty good its just the all caps is tough on the eyes. I think if you added a glow in white or light gray to the letters it might improve clarity (like you did the rivers, double click on the layer and use outer glow).

Another thing that occurred to me in reading your design brief... you mention crusades and pagans and christians... yet there is very little having to do with religion on this map. You ought to give some thought of how your'e going to work pagans and christians into this.

And since I didn't know you wanted to put in starting positions... you ought to include that in the graphics. Follow this link and get the numbers file: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=48259

Then on your map, mak a layer on top of everything and copy from one psd document and paste on the other. Use colored ones on the places you want as players starting positions and neutrals for the ones where you want neutrals.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:57 am

the brief sounds amazing! would I edit my old brief in "Official Design Brief Submissions" or make new post there and used yours?
I did army circles, added numbers, starting positions and made christianity and paganism there. not sure is it good and possible to code...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:31 am

So holding a christian+pagan gives +1, and I assume you want holding 2 christians with no pagans or 2 pagans with no christians to give -2 troops?

Sure, that should be possible.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:41 am

natty_dread wrote:So holding a christian+pagan gives +1, and I assume you want holding 2 christians with no pagans or 2 pagans with no christians to give -2 troops?

Sure, that should be possible.


yes, thats an idea. :) thanks. do you think the map is done, or need something more?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:49 am

A map is not "done" until it is in live play.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:57 am

Well... if by done you mean ready to receive more feedback and criticism for the foundry to improve the gameplay and graphics, then yes. You need to keep in mind that it's going to be at least another four months before this map is made for live play. But on the brightside, it won't be as fast paced as it was when i was posting a quick tutorial everyday.

I think you should repost your design brief and then PM MrBenn to say you've refined the map a little more and solidified the direction you're taking it in. Say that it needs some more input from the foundry community and the best place for that is the gameplay workshop.

Here's the tweaked design brief:

Map Name:
The Baltic Crusades
Link to Thread: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=107186&start=75
Mapmaker(s): theBastard
Map Size: 75 Territories, Castles and towns are starting positions.
Your aims/design style: To capture the spirit of the medieval period and the Baltic Crusades, notably the siege of castles and towns.
Uniqueness: There aren't any Baltic area maps yet created on CC, though one in the foundry. It focuses on the Medieval period which isn't uncommon but most historical maps on CC have a very western centric focus, this map will draw attention to the lesser known Baltic Crusades. The map features Castles and Towns and gives players a strategy experience set in the medieval period, drawing attention to the importance of trade between towns and castles, as well as long term siege. The map will also capture the essence of the religious conflict and the conversions of peoples.
Relevant Experience: Just learning but learning fast.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:32 am

...as fast? I´m afraid that without your big help it will be never done :lol:
four month? nevermind, I can continue work on my second map...

last version, I add "Outer Grow" around head line, edited mouths of rivers (recoloured Outer Grow). so last version, until it realy need redoing something.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:53 pm

I hated to post to this thread while the tutorial was going on, but now that the basic map draft looks done, I'll interrupt with some encouragement.

I like this map!

I do think that the font is a little too fancy for all of the reading that a player will have to do- it's a little hard on the eyes, but not terrible. And that's a minor criticism for an overall excellent map. Besides, anything that features the Hanseatic League can't be all that bad...

Really, all of the auto-deploys will make the gameplay fairly different to my mind, and it's perfect for the single-territory 'stronghold' theme of medieval conquest, particularly in the relatively sparsely populated Baltic states.

Of course, you've got plenty of the region-conquest bonuses too, and a victory objective which looks attainable, so there are multiple ways for a player to go, which makes me a huge fan in gameplay terms.

I haven't looked all that closely at the balance yet, but the concept seems strong enough and the graphics are more than adequate.

Way to go guys, thumbs up!
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:32 pm

MarshalNey wrote:I do think that the font is a little too fancy for all of the reading that a player will have to do- it's a little hard on the eyes, but not terrible. And that's a minor criticism for an overall excellent map. Besides, anything that features the Hanseatic League can't be all that bad...


I´ve tried about 20 types of font to find any old style and this one is the best redable from them. I have also version with another font, but they looks too modern.

sorry my English, but I do not exactly understand about Hanseatic towns. is there any problem with them, or they are o.k.?

MarshalNey wrote:Really, all of the auto-deploys will make the gameplay fairly different to my mind, and it's perfect for the single-territory 'stronghold' theme of medieval conquest, particularly in the relatively sparsely populated Baltic states.


100% right, you hold my idea :)

MarshalNey wrote:Of course, you've got plenty of the region-conquest bonuses too, and a victory objective which looks attainable, so there are multiple ways for a player to go, which makes me a huge fan in gameplay terms.


I reduced region bonuses, there were one more, but I can be so close to historic reality how it is possible.

MarshalNey wrote:I haven't looked all that closely at the balance yet, but the concept seems strong enough and the graphics are more than adequate.

Way to go guys, thumbs up!


thanks for your kind words, I´m working on new map and every support helps me :D
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:34 pm

Just so you know, you're going to have to have an amount of castles/towns that is divisible by 8. That way everyone starts equally. So you're going to have to edit your towns... I counted 29, so add three or remove 5 or make 5 start neutral all the time.

You're also going to have to make sure that these things are evenly spaced. For example, all towns and castles have two territories between them. Because keep in mind, that in a no spoils game players are going to stack up men and then try to eliminate each other... having three spaces between starting points versus other places having 1 space between starting points is an unfair advantage.

You ought to try and join a couple of games on Feudal War/Epic and Pelopennesian War to see how people play those maps. Because how they play those maps is similar to how they're going to play this map.

The text might be alright, but the all caps has to go. I think if you place the text next to the numbers then it should be obvious what territory it is referring to. Put it in lowercase and lets see how it looks.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:52 pm

Just so you know, you're going to have to have an amount of castles/towns that is divisible by 8.


Why 8? there are 2-7 player games too... The game engine always divides the starting points equally anyway.

You need to have a minimum of 8 starting points, but beyond that the number can be whatever. The leftover starting points can be made to start neutral.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:18 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Just so you know, you're going to have to have an amount of castles/towns that is divisible by 8. That way everyone starts equally. So you're going to have to edit your towns... I counted 29, so add three or remove 5 or make 5 start neutral all the time.


medieval was not equally :) , now seriously, the game is set up for 6 players, therefore I have 12 castles (two for each), 10 Hanseatic towns (4 are neutral from start), and 10 towns (again 4 are neutral from start).

if I will redoing map for 8 players I must add 4 more castles. there is no more place, the castles would be too close. eventualy I can add 2 more towns, so everybody will have 2 castles and 2 towns from start. with Hanseatic towns is a little problem that Visby must be neutral from start and I also add neutral Hanseatic towns which has the shortest way to Visby.

Industrial Helix wrote:You're also going to have to make sure that these things are evenly spaced. For example, all towns and castles have two territories between them. Because keep in mind, that in a no spoils game players are going to stack up men and then try to eliminate each other... having three spaces between starting points versus other places having 1 space between starting points is an unfair advantage.


when I look at map (with starting points as I made) there is some places where is only one territory between them, but this could be set up that where is only one territory between them there will be more neutral armies. and also there are trade routes, which make things realy hard to set up fair...
for example between Narva and Dorpat are two territories, but trade route make them baseless...

stack up men, hm, if I good understand the 3 units is minimum which player could manualy-deploy from start (and I can not set up game that player will gain 1 unit for 3 regions or similar).

Industrial Helix wrote:You ought to try and join a couple of games on Feudal War/Epic and Pelopennesian War to see how people play those maps. Because how they play those maps is similar to how they're going to play this map.


I played Peloponnesian War (it was team game and yes all players deployed troops to one and he kick me off than :lol: ), but this will be not team game. I do not know how to eliminate players which only stack up men and than attack... this is about fair play or on game makers.

Industrial Helix wrote:The text might be alright, but the all caps has to go. I think if you place the text next to the numbers then it should be obvious what territory it is referring to. Put it in lowercase and lets see how it looks.


o.k.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:49 pm

what do you think now? I like more previous version, but now it is more comprendious.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:53 pm

Actually Helix is correct about needing to structure the map for 8 players. Apparently the Feudal War map was made *before* this requirement was laid down by the Foundry.

All new maps, however, must be made with 8-player gameplay in mind.

However, Natty is also correct, you don't need to make the starting positions evenly divisible by 8.

The number of castles you have is fine, but in order to address the spacing issue that Helix pointed out, you can simply hardcode 4 of the castles to be neutral, and leave the other 8 as starting positions. That seems to me the best way.

My recommendation would be to make Gniezno, Memelburg, Narva and Rhein start as neutral 6 (or more).

Gniezno, Memelburg and Rhein I picked because it spaces the castles out relatively evenly (1 country in between).

Narva I picked because it's sort of isolated and easier to defend at the edge of the map up there.

Similarly, for the Hanseatic towns and other towns I would "un-neutral" 2 of them each, so that 8 start open for players and 2 would be neutral.


By the way, in my previous post I was saying that the Hanseatic towns are nice, I like them and keep them in!
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:17 pm

MarshalNey wrote:All new maps, however, must be made with 8-player gameplay in mind.


I did not know this. o.k, no problem I will go by yours advices.

MarshalNey wrote:My recommendation would be to make Gniezno, Memelburg, Narva and Rhein start as neutral 6 (or more).

Gniezno, Memelburg and Rhein I picked because it spaces the castles out relatively evenly (1 country in between).

Narva I picked because it's sort of isolated and easier to defend at the edge of the map up there.


yes, this sounds fine.

MarshalNey wrote:Similarly, for the Hanseatic towns and other towns I would "un-neutral" 2 of them each, so that 8 start open for players and 2 would be neutral.


Visby must be 100% neutral, so one more...

MarshalNey wrote:By the way, in my previous post I was saying that the Hanseatic towns are nice, I like them and keep them in!


thanks :)
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:00 pm

starting positions for 8 players. each has one castle, one Hansa town and one town. Visby is neutral because its extra bonus and Stettin - the opossite corner of map against Narva.

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:41 pm

There's something I want to suggest as I don't really like the starting point/conquer maps so much. On the Third Crusade map Kabanellas coded a starting point for each player at 6 armies across the map and then lef tthe rest of the map to deploy randomly at 3 armies per territory. What if you Coded Castles at 6, Hanseatic towns at 5 and towns at 4, each autodeploy's +1. The rest is open to random deployment, and if you want to really spice things up the regular territories can start at 2.

Then people won't do the whole sit and stack method and the game will be much more fluid and about conquering territories and taking towns and castles. Plus, you'll have to worry less about equal spacing between the castles, towns and hanseatic towns.

Also... i don't like how the bridges lead into castles... seems kind of strange to me. I'd prefer the bridges to link just the territories.

And speaking of the bridges... do the double clickon the layer and add some dropshadow.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:24 pm

I agree with Helix on this one, I also like open deployment games more than the conquer-the-neutrals maps, there's more strategy involved rather than just mere patience and stacking.

Third Crusade is a good example of an open-deployment map, and it's an extremely popular map right now (for good reason imo).

However, maps like Feudal War are also popular, so the map will probably work either way you decide to go with it.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:27 pm

Thumbs up for non-conquer-the-gray-men gameplay.


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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:10 am

Industrial Helix wrote:There's something I want to suggest as I don't really like the starting point/conquer maps so much.


now I see that non-conquer maps are more popular. but if I change auto-deploy to manuly-deploy all my idea is gone... it need to find any balance between auto-deploy and manualy-deploy.
also castles will lost their regional importance, and as MarshalNay wrote: "Really, all of the auto-deploys will make the gameplay fairly different to my mind, and it's perfect for the single-territory 'stronghold' theme of medieval conquest, particularly in the relatively sparsely populated Baltic states."

Industrial Helix wrote: On the Third Crusade map Kabanellas coded a starting point for each player at 6 armies across the map and then lef tthe rest of the map to deploy randomly at 3 armies per territory. What if you Coded Castles at 6, Hanseatic towns at 5 and towns at 4, each autodeploy's +1. The rest is open to random deployment, and if you want to really spice things up the regular territories can start at 2.


o.k. what about to code more auto-deploy as now: Castles +6, Hansa towns + 3 (and bonus +1 if you hold Visby), Towns +3. come on and look how the start would looks: you have from start one Castle (6 armies), one Hansa town (3 armies) and one Town (3 armies). you have also 3 manualy-deploy armies from start. so if you deploy them to Castle you will have in 9 armies, so you can in one turn capture 1/2 or 1/3 of any Duchy. and yes we can add manualy-deploy armies for each Castle +2, Hansa town +1, Town +1 - than you can deploy to Castle 7 armies (3 you have from start, 2 for Castle, 1 for Hansa town, 1 for Town). so something similar as you wrote but contrariwise (auto-deploy will be still more important).

and we can code that territories belonging to player´s starting positions will be not neutral but player holds them. it is logical - when you hold Castle/Hansa town/Town you rule its region. so now there will be realy few neutral regions.

also do not forgot that there are much manualy-deploy bonuses for Duchies which are not large (they are mostly consist with 3-4 regions), also religion manualy-deploy bonus.

about regular territories, Helix, you think to do them neutral with 2?

Industrial Helix wrote:Also... i don't like how the bridges lead into castles... seems kind of strange to me. I'd prefer the bridges to link just the territories.

And speaking of the bridges... do the double clickon the layer and add some dropshadow.


I add bridges into castles because castles were buil to protect important river/mountain crosses. maybe I coud add bridges to territory and do small territory around castle (not as separate but belonging to castle)...

good idea with shadows.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:39 am

For the bridges, as long as you've got a reason I'm cool with it.

So yeah, going back to the deployment... You can make the castles, towns and hanseatic towns autodeploy and still start at different numbers and still have random deployment. That's perfectly fine. But like you said... those numbers might be a little high as castles would then be able to blitz the nearest area and would give the first player an advantage. So there are two options... 1) Lower the numbers on the castles or 2) (My preferred option) get rid of manual deployment 3 and make this map totally reliant on autodeploys.

Getting rid of the manual 3 would make castles and towns so much more valuable, especially in the beginning rounds, and raise the importance of the auto-deploy significantly. Only when a player controls a region, is he going to start getting manual troops... symbolic of recruiting or a draft.

For the rest of the areas you have labeled as neutral, make them random deployment (as in any player can get them) but only 2 men per territory. It's small numbers but it opens up the option of a player gaining strength from the land and will make the activity outside the castles and towns less static. Players won't be able to sit, wait and stack if the territories are all their enemies and not neutrals.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:26 pm

I absolutely agree with you, to do map auto-deployed and only for Duchies will be manual-deploy armies. the problem was that I´ve read that these 3 manual-deploy armies from start are needed.

about bridges, should they be as they are or would I have make what I wrote (small area around castles - but this coud confused players because after this will not castle looks as in legend). but when I look at the map, players which will have Castles with bridges will have bg advantance - they could from start attack two territories (one in witch castle lie and second connected with bridge). I will add bridges to territories than.

Industrial Helix wrote:For the rest of the areas you have labeled as neutral, make them random deployment (as in any player can get them) but only 2 men per territory. It's small numbers but it opens up the option of a player gaining strength from the land and will make the activity outside the castles and towns less static. Players won't be able to sit, wait and stack if the territories are all their enemies and not neutrals.


sorry me, but this I not exactly understand. all territories (except starting positions) will be neutral?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:04 pm

The 3 manual deploy armies are not required.

For the bridges, you can even it out by making sure everyone has a castle with a bridge or making it so that the bridges don't go to the castles. You're call, but you got to make it even.

And for the last bit, no it would mean that the territories that are not castle/towns would be any player, not neutral, and start at two.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby theBastard on Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:44 pm

so there will be no manual-deploy armies except Duchies bonuses, religion bonuse and maybe Hanseatic bonus (if hold Visby).

about territories, could we do compromise :) ? some regions will be from start neutral and some divided between players?

I took bridges from castles/towns and add them to territories. now it looks more balanced. now all Castles have around twoo territories, only Dunaburg, Kolberg and Vilnius only one.

I also deleted land routes from Castles, now are connected only Hansa towns - so now player from Castle can not soon attack Hansa town, and it is also candid because Hansa towns connected by sea routes are also not interrupted (except necessary islands).

I have one question, I wrote it in "Questions & Answers but I did not received exactly answer: is possible to do that for example Castle is possible attack only from Hansa town, but I must also have Town and only than I can attack Castle from Hansa town?

Click image to enlarge.
image


EDIT: btw, I play yours 13 colonies. nice map, also gameplay (I like killer neutrals idea), but unfortunately I´ve started very bad :D . only one notise: here also players stack men.
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