Baltic Crusades

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby tkr4lf on Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:23 pm

I would love to play this one...hope you finish it soon, tnb.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:08 am

I am doing a little analysis on the bonuses with that old faithful Bonus Calculator Spreadsheet. Once I get something pretty enough (another day or so), I will post here for discussion. Heads up: some of the bonus values may bear tweaking.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:26 am

You probably should make a square or something around Gotland to indicate that it lies further away. Right now it looks like it's right off the coast.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:03 am

Gillipig wrote:You probably should make a square or something around Gotland to indicate that it lies further away. Right now it looks like it's right off the coast.

I don't think this would add anything but confusion. Nordic Countries tried adding inset boxes and it produced a lot of clutter.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:33 am

Okay, as promised, some bonus calculations. This is based on the spreadsheet that has bounced around Conquer Club for some time.

Click image to enlarge.
image


I don't pretend to understand the rationale behind the calculations completely, but experience says that they are useful to consider.

You will note that the supercontinents Terra Mariana and Order State get ridiculous values. It may be that the calculation is better suited to the difference between the whole and the sum of the parts.

I will leave this open for comment by others before I express any other opinions on the results.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:13 pm

these values are ridiculous because spreadsheet is helpful to give you a starting point but it's not the magic tool for all bonuses.
The simple math behind it doesn't take into consideration some elements, like the placement, the composite bonus, etc etc

If it was just needed a spreadsheet to do that we wouldn't need gameplay CAs ;)
My suggestion is that we double check the simple bonuses and then we give a value to the composite ones.

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:09 am

Okay, let me comment on the results. I agree with the spreadsheet that
  • the B. of O-W & D should only be a 2 not a 3: it's not much different from Estonia
  • Papal Legatus should only be a 2 not a 3: it's not much different from Courland
  • Sword Brethren should be a 4 not a 3, because it is split.
  • Duchy of Samogitia should be a 1 not a 2: it's small and easy to defend
  • Teutonic Order should be a 1, or at most a 2, not a 3: it's large and very easy to defend

I think that the spreadsheet's 3 for the trade routes is likely a bit high, but the 1 seems low, compared with the Duchy of Samogitia. I would support a 2.

I would support an extra 2 for Terra Mariana for a total of 8 (2 for Papal Legatus, 4 for Sword Brethren, then extra 2 for both together).

I would support an extra 1 for Order State for a total of 5 or 6 (3 for East Prussia, 1 or 2 for Teutonic Order, then extra 1 for both together).
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:12 pm

What does calculation questionable mean?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:44 pm

The "calculation questionable" tag has been applied to those super-bonuses that consist of a collection of other bonuses. The calculator comes up with a number less than the sum of the component bonuses, so unless this is designed to give the differential bonus (the amount to add to the sum of the component bonuses), I would say that the number is not useful.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:00 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:...
If it was just needed a spreadsheet to do that we wouldn't need gameplay CAs ;)
...

I know this is probably off-topic here...but why can't what the gameplay CAs do be placed into a spreadsheet...for bonuses like these?
Just asking! Is it too mathematically complicated?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:08 pm

cairnswk wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:...
If it was just needed a spreadsheet to do that we wouldn't need gameplay CAs ;)
...

I know this is probably off-topic here...but why can't what the gameplay CAs do be placed into a spreadsheet...for bonuses like these?
Just asking! Is it too mathematically complicated?

If the CAs could outline in detail how they come up with values, then it could be put into a spreadsheet or other program, but I suspect they work as much by gut feelings as they do by a set of rules.

I am still waiting for a comment on my comment on the spreadsheet values. I agreed with some and proposed adjustments to others. Does anyone have a counter proposal?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:12 pm

Since no one has come up with any other suggestions ender, let's get the XML done so we can check it, please?? O:)
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:45 am

Okay, I will try to wrap this up soon.

EDIT: I was about to work on this when I remembered that some of the bonuses had been simplified and thus the names had changed slightly. So I went to look at the map images to check, and they are all black (for me at least). I would like to see what I am working on before spending any more time on this.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:52 am

Is this one getting close to Beta?
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:03 pm

Well, it could get XML checked if I submitted a new file, but see my previous post.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:23 pm

the large is in the first post, the small....honeslty i don't remember if I have it somewhere or if I have to do it.
Will look into it tomorrow. ;)

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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:30 pm

Okay, since we had no counter-proposals to my bonus structure, I think we can go with it at least for now. I summarize:
  • Duchy of Estonia: 2
  • Bishopric of Osel-Wiek & Dago: 2
  • Papal Legatus: 2
  • Sword Brethren: 4
  • Terra Mariana: Papal Legatus: 2 + Sword Brethren: 4 + 2 = 8 total
  • Courland: 2
  • Duchy of Samogitia: 1
  • East Prussia: 3
  • Teutonic Order: 2
  • Order State: East Prussia: 3 + Teutonic Order: 2 + 1 = 6 total
  • Duchy of Pomeralia: 1
  • Gotland: 1
    • Visby-Danzig route: +2
    • Visby-Konigsberg route: +2
    • Visby-Reval route: +2
  • Castles of Teutonic Knights: +1 for 3, +2 for 4
  • Castles of Brothers of the Sword: +1 for 3, +2 for 4
  • Hanseatic Cities: +1 for every 3
  • Autodeploys: Castles: +3; Hanseatic Cities: +1; Towns: +1; Ships: -1 (that is, decay)
  • Reinforcements for holding territories in general: +1 for every 3, minimum +3 (standard scheme)

I will try to update the XML this weekend.

Now as far as the small map goes, the last time I fixed the small coordinates (and I hope it really is the last time) I was working against http://www.wcforums.org/foundry/BalticCrusades/baltic5.4s.png
Click image to enlarge.
image

I hope that there are no coordinate changes since then.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:47 am

No, the correct bonus structure is the one on the big, we can change values but the bonus structure is this one:

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:50 pm

Oh, I understand that the bonus structure has changed. My summary above is based on that.

I hope to put up the next version of the XML within 48 to 72 hours. It's a busy weekend with back-to-school and such.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:00 pm

Forgive the double post, but I thought it the surest way to get noticed:

Here is the new XML with the revised continents and the bonus values I outlined above:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/11/9/ ... s_1.18.xml
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:08 am

So, any new on this one?

I'm excited to play this...
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:44 am

I think we may be waiting for a small map with all the latest changes, and possibly some changes to the large map to reflect the bonuses I put into the latest XML.
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm

That makes me sad. :(
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:25 pm

One thing I just noticed.

This probably isn't a big deal, but it's a pretty easy fix, so, whatever. Just thought I'd point this out.


Click image to enlarge.
image



In the legend, under the section for Castles, it says that Castles are river crosses. A better way to say that might be Castles are river crossings. Like I said, not a big deal. I'm sure people will know what it means either way, just that river crossings sounds a bit better than river crosses. Up to you guys, though.

Love the map, can't wait for it to hit beta!
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Re: Baltic Crusades

Postby ender516 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:22 pm

I agree with you on that "crossings" vs. "crosses" wording. I think it was raised before, but that might have been when theBastard was doing the artwork. Anyway, it may have just been forgotten, but it could get fixed now. If it isn't, I bet it will be raised during Beta.
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