Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [2.8.12] V20-P15 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:01 pm

pamoa wrote:sure it has to be tested live to see if it is a weakness or a trap
you may have some complain about it but until you assume it for its ok
anyway this kind of complex map always need the live test to be adjusted
players will find all possible strategies and the winning ones
so it was just to give you all I had in mind so you can be even more convinced of your choice

Yes, i realise some complaints will occur. That is what testing is about.
Appreciate your concern and trying to help, but i'd prefer not to add another column, and adjust the neutrals where needed if thate happens.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:08 pm

Version 21 with above changes.


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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:46 pm

Talk to me people....is there anyway that using the Commander's Monarch could be used as a conditional border for the new xml feature?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby nolefan5311 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:56 pm

cairnswk wrote:Talk to me people....is there anyway that using the Commander's Monarch could be used as a conditional border for the new xml feature?


Can you elaborate a little more?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:06 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Talk to me people....is there anyway that using the Commander's Monarch could be used as a conditional border for the new xml feature?


Can you elaborate a little more?

Is there anyway this Conditional Border
could be used as feature in the gameplay?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby phantomzero on Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:20 pm

cairnswk wrote:
pamoa wrote:...in a triple game very easy
you pick the third player of the other team and make a triple attack before he can ever play

OK pamoa, point considered...but:
1. that can be countered by the team forting their third team member's monarch in a teams game; remember a player has to lose their Monarch and non-treasury regions to be eliminated
2. If each player on a triple side allocates their drop numbers to their third player, giving them 2+3+3+3=11 on their side's 3rd player CV, that still means they have to conquer 6 monarch armies plus - let's say:
...Capitania -> Triumph - 9 armies (total 15)
...Capitania -> Santa Ana - 11 armies (total 17)
best comment i can offer is it's not possible. ;) even with the best dice.
3. If this occurs in a quads game i.e. 4 players per side, it means 14 has to conquer say 15 or 17....at 15 still going to be very hard with best dice....you would have to win every assault.
4. overall, i'd say it would be better to wait until perhaps 3rd round to wipe a team opponent out, when treasury might provide better odds.


Just to throw some statistics into the conversation.

14 vs 15 wins 46.1% of the time
14 vs 17 wins 34.2% of the time

cairnswk wrote:
pamoa wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Winged Cat wrote:What are the non-special-color monarch-stamped ships (such as Swiftsure and Diana) good for, if they aren't wards against elimination?
They are "good for" because they are the 4th starting position that cannot be attacked from a Treasury position in the starting rounds of the game.
Done this way to ensure that players are not eleminated in very early rounds.
They are Commander stamped only for now to show starting positions.
They are part of the Non-treasury regions.

correct me if I'm wrong but
if in first round I successfully bombard the Monarch position from another player
he is eliminated without being able to even start to play

do you think that will be possible with monarch holding 6 armies and you only have 2 on commander plus whatever the drop is - Max 3 :?:


2 plus 3 drop is 5 vs 6 wins 25.3% of the time.

Am I reading this correctly? While those aren't incredible odds, one shouldn't have a 25% chance of losing before taking a turn.

Keep up the good work. I don't have a ton else to offer right now but wanted to comment on the dice odds that were being discussed.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby nolefan5311 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:30 pm

cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Talk to me people....is there anyway that using the Commander's Monarch could be used as a conditional border for the new xml feature?


Can you elaborate a little more?

Is there anyway this Conditional Border
could be used as feature in the gameplay?


lol, I know what the conditional borders that you were speaking of are, and they can be used on any map. I was seeking elaboration on how exactly you wanted it to work with the Commanders Monarch, as in, the Commanders ship can't attack X territories unless the monarch is held, etc.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:56 pm

thanks for commenting phantomzero...nive to hear some other's opinion.
phantomzero wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
pamoa wrote:...in a triple game very easy
you pick the third player of the other team and make a triple attack before he can ever play

OK pamoa, point considered...but:
1. that can be countered by the team forting their third team member's monarch in a teams game; remember a player has to lose their Monarch and non-treasury regions to be eliminated
2. If each player on a triple side allocates their drop numbers to their third player, giving them 2+3+3+3=11 on their side's 3rd player CV, that still means they have to conquer 6 monarch armies plus - let's say:
...Capitania -> Triumph - 9 armies (total 15)
...Capitania -> Santa Ana - 11 armies (total 17)
best comment i can offer is it's not possible. ;) even with the best dice.
3. If this occurs in a quads game i.e. 4 players per side, it means 14 has to conquer say 15 or 17....at 15 still going to be very hard with best dice....you would have to win every assault.
4. overall, i'd say it would be better to wait until perhaps 3rd round to wipe a team opponent out, when treasury might provide better odds.


Just to throw some statistics into the conversation.

14 vs 15 wins 46.1% of the time
14 vs 17 wins 34.2% of the time

well, i am certainly not in those stats...my experience is that i have to have at least double to win i.e. 28 V 15 or 34 v 17
I don't doubt your word, but can you tell me where you got those stats from.. i'd be interested to see others
I'll have to then consider that further :)

cairnswk wrote:
pamoa wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Winged Cat wrote:What are the non-special-color monarch-stamped ships (such as Swiftsure and Diana) good for, if they aren't wards against elimination?
They are "good for" because they are the 4th starting position that cannot be attacked from a Treasury position in the starting rounds of the game.
Done this way to ensure that players are not eleminated in very early rounds.
They are Commander stamped only for now to show starting positions.
They are part of the Non-treasury regions.

correct me if I'm wrong but
if in first round I successfully bombard the Monarch position from another player
he is eliminated without being able to even start to play

do you think that will be possible with monarch holding 6 armies and you only have 2 on commander plus whatever the drop is - Max 3 :?:


2 plus 3 drop is 5 vs 6 wins 25.3% of the time.

Am I reading this correctly? While those aren't incredible odds, one shouldn't have a 25% chance of losing before taking a turn.

Keep up the good work. I don't have a ton else to offer right now but wanted to comment on the dice odds that were being discussed.

i agree one shouldn't have those odds.
please offer more if you have them and can lend weight to any discussion :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:59 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:...lol, I know what the conditional borders that you were speaking of are, and they can be used on any map. I was seeking elaboration on how exactly you wanted it to work with the Commanders Monarch, as in, the Commanders ship can't attack X territories unless the monarch is held, etc.

well, really i was searching for ideas....i.e allowing other input into what might be possible...so go ahead and fire somethings at me. :)
no, not rocks :lol: :lol:
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby Winged Cat on Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:12 am

cairnswk wrote:Thanks for your continued comments, Winged Cat :)


Hey, someone thought this was front page sidebar worthy, I figured I could toss in a couple cents where I saw 'em. This may be my last batch for this map, though. You've made a lot of progress. :)

cairnswk wrote:I've removed i.e. +1 for 9
and changed player's to Commander's
That should work better.


Still no need for "Commander's" (because Monarch position is Monarch position), but it's better than "player's". It works.

cairnswk wrote:
On the right side, "assault & fort" should be just "assault". Fort is implied, and can be affected by gameplay choices.

i'd like to leave the "fort" part in there as even though it is implied, it makes it distinctly more apparent what you can do.

Unless gameplay choices invalidate it, in which case the map is telling you wrong.

You didn't identify for anyone reading this what gameplay choice you think might invalidate what the map says.
Even if fort is implied, then gameplay choices would also invalidate that, so i don't think it matters.[/quote]

True, and this is a minor thing. It's none of the current gameplay choices - just thinking in terms of future-proofing here.

And if you're looking for ideas for conditional borders: if you hold a Monarch on one side, you can attack between that side's supply ships and/or land bases. (Because they are supposed to be allies, after all...)
Last edited by Winged Cat on Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby pamoa on Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:14 am

phantomzero wrote:2 plus 3 drop is 5 vs 6 wins 25.3% of the time
cairnswk wrote:I agree one shouldn't have those odds
what would be an acceptable percentage 10%, 5%, ... ?
phantomzero can you convert it in 5 vs ?

cairnswk wrote:Talk to me people....is there anyway that using the Commander's Monarch could be used as a conditional border for the new xml feature?
just a raw idea
maybe you need to hold the let say +3 treasury to be able to bombard from your ship
like you need money to buy powder and guns
or any variation of this idea that money trigger some gameplay feature
the idea is to link the board with the treasury
so you have to develop on both side
but maybe you shouldn't start to change all your gameplay now :?

and some nitpicking remarks :oops:
;) shouldn't it be Monarchs' Commanders as it is the monarch who "own" the commanders ?
:idea: above the treasury lines I would have written "Monarchs' Commanders | earnings are cumulative"
for me it is important you indicate on the board where the commanders are
;) first line of the treasury legend you also need to change Monarch to Monarchs' Commanders

I know those complex map are a hell for legend phrasing
but the straighter they are the less complain you will get
keep in mind foreigner may not master too complex English phrases
hold on you have a great map =D>
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby sannemanrobinson on Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:25 am

pamoa wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Talk to me people....is there anyway that using the Commander's Monarch could be used as a conditional border for the new xml feature?
just a raw idea
maybe you need to hold the let say +3 treasury to be able to bombard from your ship
like you need money to buy powder and guns
or any variation of this idea that money trigger some gameplay feature
the idea is to link the board with the treasury
so you have to develop on both side
but maybe you shouldn't start to change all your gameplay now :?

Involving money would make it too complicated I think. As a conditional border you also do not spend the money. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:02 am

I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

Another possibility is that someone can't advance up the Treasury unless they hold both regions of the Command Vessel. For instance, I take the first Treasury Region on my first turn, but my CV is taken on the next turn, and I have to take my CV back before I can advance further.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:28 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

Another possibility is that someone can't advance up the Treasury unless they hold both regions of the Command Vessel. For instance, I take the first Treasury Region on my first turn, but my CV is taken on the next turn, and I have to take my CV back before I can advance further.



I like this idea. Also, nice change in the movement of Treasury. One other thing, Image Hull is a bit hard to read.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:09 pm

Winged Cat wrote:...
And if you're looking for ideas for conditional borders: if you hold a Monarch on one side, you can attack between that side's supply ships and/or land bases. (Because they are supposed to be allies, after all...)

OK, worthy of consideration. :)

pamoa wrote:just a raw idea
maybe you need to hold the let say +3 treasury to be able to bombard from your ship
like you need money to buy powder and guns
or any variation of this idea that money trigger some gameplay feature
the idea is to link the board with the treasury

so you have to develop on both side
but maybe you shouldn't start to change all your gameplay now :?

That idea makes sense...so you're saying you need to hold +1M, +1T, and +3T before you can bombard from your ship...is that correct?


and some nitpicking remarks :oops:
;) shouldn't it be Monarchs' Commanders as it is the monarch who "own" the commanders ?


I examined that before i changed it...and had what you suggested, but then i looked at it from the player's viewpoint, and each player is playing as a commander, and there are 6 commanders per monarch, even though each player has representation of a monarch, so i changed it to what it is now...but to bring it in line with the idea below...done!
:idea: above the treasury lines I would have written "Monarchs' Commanders | earnings are cumulative"

Done

for me it is important you indicate on the board where the commanders are
;) first line of the treasury legend you also need to change Monarch to Monarchs' Commanders

Done ...i think!


I know those complex map are a hell for legend phrasing
but the straighter they are the less complain you will get
keep in mind foreigner may not master too complex English phrases
hold on you have a great map =D>

i'm holding on well....yes the wording needs to be correct...agreed. :) and thanks.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:12 pm

sannemanrobinson wrote:....
Involving money would make it too complicated I think. As a conditional border you also do not spend the money.

Not sure i agree about money making it too complicated.

An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.

I do like this idea...it ties in well with the beacons use....but then there has to be no disadvantage given to the Spanish because of it.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:20 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.
That is already in the mix as part of the Command Vessels. ;)

Another possibility is that someone can't advance up the Treasury unless they hold both regions of the Command Vessel. For instance, I take the first Treasury Region on my first turn, but my CV is taken on the next turn, and I have to take my CV back before I can advance further.

OK, but that defeats the purpose of being able to use the forts (money) from the treasury to fight the sea battle with.

Nola_Lifer wrote:]I like this idea. Also, nice change in the movement of Treasury. One other thing, Image Hull is a bit hard to read.

Not sure that i like it all that much.
Re Hull...Yes, but that will be moved later in graphics stage when that region loses its shield.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:40 pm

Version 22....re-arrangements and space saving...height down to 864 now.
and space made for conditional borders...when decided. :)

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:10 am

Could conditional borders work with the beacons?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:41 pm

cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.
That is already in the mix as part of the Command Vessels. ;)


As it is currently, any Command Vessel can attack any Monarch. I understand this is a pretty important aspect of the gameplay for you, but my suggestion was that a Monarch can only be attacked if one side of the Command Vessel of that Monarch is also held.

So say I start out with the Sir Francis Drake regions and my opponent has the Oquendo Regions. I slowly build up troops on one side of my command vessel (Revenge), launch an assault on his Command Vessel (Santa Ana), then use my build up of troops on the other side of Revenge to attack his Monarch. I must first possess a region of his Command Vessel before attacking his Monarch. Just throwing ideas out there :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:45 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

That is already in the mix as part of the Command Vessels. ;)

As it is currently, any Command Vessel can attack any Monarch. I understand this is a pretty important aspect of the gameplay for you, but my suggestion was that a Monarch can only be attacked if one side of the Command Vessel of that Monarch is also held.
So say I start out with the Sir Francis Drake regions and my opponent has the Oquendo Regions. I slowly build up troops on one side of my command vessel (Revenge), launch an assault on his Command Vessel (Santa Ana), then use my build up of troops on the other side of Revenge to attack his Monarch. I must first possess a region of his Command Vessel before attacking his Monarch. Just throwing ideas out there :)

Mmmm. OK sorry i misread/misunderstood you idea.
That's not a bad idea now thinking about it, because it might be the stop-gap measure to prevent too early an elimination in all numbers of the play.
What do others think?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:11 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:Could conditional borders work with the beacons?


So far these suggestions have been offered...

winged_cat wrote:1, if you hold a Monarch on one side, you can attack between that side's supply ships and/or land bases.


pamoa wrote:2. maybe you need to hold the let say +3 treasury to be able to bombard from your ship; like you need money to buy powder and guns; or any variation of this idea that money trigger some gameplay feature; the idea is to link the board with the treasury


sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.


nolefan5311 wrote:4. Another possibility is that someone can't advance up the Treasury unless they hold both regions of the Command Vessel. For instance, I take the first Treasury Region on my first turn, but my CV is taken on the next turn, and I have to take my CV back before I can advance further.


nolefan5311 wrote:5. I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:09 pm

cairnswk wrote:So far these suggestions have been offered...
sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.


nolefan5311 wrote:5. I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

I think these two make the most sense. You can always use both of these ideas ;)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:53 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:So far these suggestions have been offered...
sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.


nolefan5311 wrote:5. I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

I think these two make the most sense. You can always use both of these ideas ;)

thanks for input isaiah40...
any suggestions for the wordings on these from anyone?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:16 pm

"Monarch can only be attacked while holding one region of same Monarch's Command Vessel"

"Corresponding beacon must be held before ships of same color can bombard". - With this though (I don't really know how else this can be done), you'd need to color code them or something so that people know which beacon belongs to which ship.
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