Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:45 pm

EricPhail wrote:Few more dodgy borders:
Mutual Bombardment between San Juan de Portugal Bow and San Salvador (shouldn't exist it's out of range)
Santa Anna Stern Bombards San Buena Ventura (again it's out of range and should exist)
PTL(A) bombarding Ark Royal Stern (as above)
TF(A) bombarding Margate (again out of range)

PTL (A) - White Bear Should be Mutual Bombardment
Tiger - GL (A) should be mutual
York - Margate LB should be mutual

Achatae should bombard plymouth

That's all I can see at the moment (could still be others)


Eric, thanks for those...i'll fix in the file...
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:21 am

Question on one bonus: "Hold Monarch's Commander's Flag-Ship & corresponding Treasury +3"
Does that mean you have to hold both sides of the Flag Ship (also gaining +1)
AND the whole treasury all the way to +5? (I'm assuming that's the way it works)
Or does the +3 bonus kick in if you hold the Flag Ship & the first Treasury (+1) spot?
P.S. The one-way arrows are slightly off on the Spanish side - covering part of the T letters.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby Gilligan on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:25 am

jonofperu wrote:Question on one bonus: "Hold Monarch's Commander's Flag-Ship & corresponding Treasury +3"
Does that mean you have to hold both sides of the Flag Ship (also gaining +1)
AND the whole treasury all the way to +5? (I'm assuming that's the way it works)
Or does the +3 bonus kick in if you hold the Flag Ship & the first Treasury (+1) spot?
P.S. The one-way arrows are slightly off on the Spanish side - covering part of the T letters.


It means the whole treasury, yeah. The +3 refers to the bonus, not the +3 auto in the treasury. And yeah, you need both sides of the ship as well.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:33 am

Another thing I just noticed. I saw a player trying out this map say in chat that he tried to take a territ from another player to get him under 12 before his first turn. Seeing there are no other indications (that I can see) 12 territs should give +4 deploy. But the map says "Maximum Starting Regions: 9" and since you actually start with 12 and only get +3 deploy, does that mean the Monarch Commander spots don't count? Seems a bit confusing, but I'd hate to add more text to the map.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby Gilligan on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:42 am

jonofperu wrote:Another thing I just noticed. I saw a player trying out this map say in chat that he tried to take a territ from another player to get him under 12 before his first turn. Seeing there are no other indications (that I can see) 12 territs should give +4 deploy. But the map says "Maximum Starting Regions: 9" and since you actually start with 12 and only get +3 deploy, does that mean the Monarch Commander spots don't count? Seems a bit confusing, but I'd hate to add more text to the map.


This is a good point. Perhaps it's supposed to read "maximum starting troops: 9"?

For the most part, regions are divided by 8.

<reinforcements>
<reinforcement>
<lower>1</lower>
<upper>48</upper>
<divisor>8</divisor>
</reinforcement>
</reinforcements>

What I don't understand, though, is why in Game 13644393 6 for 125...maybe cairns can clear this up.

But, going back to your point, with 12 regions he'll get only 3.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:34 pm

Yeah, I've seen other examples of odd base deploy numbers on this map like the one you mention. It's a mystery. With nothing specified my understanding is that base deploy should be 1 per 3 minimum 3.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [28.9.13] V43 Assassin Neutral D

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:10 pm

iancanton wrote:good work on the neutrals! ....

the maximum starting positions is 3 (3 positions of 3 regions each); the maximum starting regions is 9.
...
ian. :)


Gilligan wrote:
jonofperu wrote:Another thing I just noticed. I saw a player trying out this map say in chat that he tried to take a territ from another player to get him under 12 before his first turn. Seeing there are no other indications (that I can see) 12 territs should give +4 deploy. But the map says "Maximum Starting Regions: 9" and since you actually start with 12 and only get +3 deploy, does that mean the Monarch Commander spots don't count? Seems a bit confusing, but I'd hate to add more text to the map.


This is a good point. Perhaps it's supposed to read "maximum starting troops: 9"?


Gilligan, above is part of a conversation with ian where it was suggested how to word this.



Let's examine the start of Game 13644393

2013-11-25 17:54:36 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Don Diego Medrano M1
2013-11-25 17:54:36 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Hugo de Moncada M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Sir Martin Frobisher M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Sir John Hawkins M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Ld Henry Seymour M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Sir William Winter M1

i_Cypher appears to have recevied 6 starting groups, and should not have...because if there are 12 groups, then the way the drop engine should have worked is 12/3=4...so i_Cypher should have only got 4 start groups not 6.

The same seems to have occured for his opponent receiving 6 start groups.

I know from exmaination of 3 player games that the game engine is allocating 4 start groups in these games, so that appears correct.

Question: given that there is no <positions max="4"> in the xml, then is the game engine working correctly...has it been adjusted from 8 player to 12 player?

For action: to overcome this shortfall insert <positions max="4"> into the xml.

2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding SS Bazana
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding SS Sáo Luis
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding Penzance LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding Brighton LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding London LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding Margate LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 3 troops for 24 regions


Following on...
Gilligan wrote:... regions are divided by 8.
<reinforcements>
<reinforcement>
<lower>1</lower>
<upper>48</upper>
<divisor>8</divisor>
</reinforcement>
</reinforcements>

in the above, i_Cypher recevied +1 auto drop on each of 6 Monarchs and reinforcement of +1 for supply ships and land bases (6 in total)...so that appears to work corrcetly.

i_Cypher at that point had 24 territories (6x4 start positions) which, if working according to the reinforcement rules (1=lower and 48=upper), would appear correct...(24/8 divisor =3)...3 troops for 24 regions as reinformcements.

2013-11-25 17:55:10 - i_Cypher deployed 7 troops on Vanguard Bow
2013-11-25 17:55:13 - i_Cypher deployed 2 troops on Sir William Winter M1

i_Cypher thus had a total of 9 troops to deploy (but this appears to have had nothing to do with what that wording stated on the map).


What I don't understand, though, is why in Game 13644393 6 for 125...maybe cairns can clear this up.

Same as above applies here. The upper limit is 48...anything above that (49-125) appears to be discarded, so the max reinforcements is 6 (48/8=6)

This was done, so that no player in a 1v1 game particularly at start would have too many troops to overwhelm an opponent so easily with a reinfrocement drop.

So given that..."positions max="4" " needs implementing, this will bring the current start reinforcements of 9 down to...

SSs and LBs > 4
+
start territories (16/8) 2
= 6

Do players want this?
or
Do players want to leave the current 1v1 split at 6 groups each? (meaning the current start drop of 9 remains)

If this analysis is correct above...then i'd be happy to re-word the "Starting Regions..." to "Max. Start Reinforcements 1v1: 6 or 9"
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:18 pm

"Hugo de Moncado" shows up in spoils as "Hugo de Moncada"
Not sure which is right, although I do know people with the last name Moncada.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:05 pm

Santa Cruz incorrect mutual bombardment with Santa Ana Stern (as well as San Buenaventura as previously pointed out)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby tec805 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:42 pm

Would it be possible to make the text a little sharper? Hurts my eyes reading soft small fonts (I'm running 2560x1600, so everything is a little small, but I don't have eye-strain issues with any other maps I play).
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby Jackofalltrades on Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:08 pm

scanned last page or so and didn't see mention of it but isn't Victory's Stern supposed to be able to assault the treasury of sir john hopkins?? bob sees it but can't click it or select it from the dropdown menu... sorry if this issue is repeated elsewhere and pending correction. i don't float the cartography forum much.

**edit** nevermind i initially misunderstood the conditional boundry...
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:06 pm

I'm new to this map and came to the foundry because I was enjoying the play in Beta. Great map! =D>
Cairnswk, I read your frustration comments earlier and I apologize in advance for bringing up gameplay issues. As a fledgling cartographer myself I appreciate the amount of work you've put into this and if things can't be changed at this point please just ignore everything I say! And one more apology you have every right to ignore me for: I haven't read all 46 pages in the thread… I started, but we’re all limited on time, so I’ll just have to share my observations in case they help, though they might be worthless. I completely appreciate your right to burn them without reading... ;)
So I fearfully dare to speak without any intention of sounding arrogant. :oops:

Anyway, it seems to me that there are a couple of places where the map provides an unfair advantage. I've been playing it on many settings.
If you start on Sao Martinho you can make a quick dash for the de Parma bonuses.
If you start on Penzance LB you can pick up the beacon bonus and potentially break out into your oponents' backyards. True, you have to break through neutrals to get out of the beacons, but only Penzance starts on top of the bonus/back door. You can use the beacon chain partially from most of the other LB's, but you have to break IN and OUT of the chain and you can never work back to Penzance.
I’m in a game right now where I have an opponent coming at me out of the Penzance-based beacon chain (reinforcing those Sir Martin Frobisher auto-deploys all the way I think) and I have NO way to counter-attack without fighting through a bunch of neutrals across too many territs (he’s concentrated on that side of the map).
So I think the one-way route is the most troubling for gameplay.

Way back at the beginning I saw MrBenn said about the beacons:
I understand the desire to have them starting at Lands End, but for gameplay purposes I think it would be better to make them 2-way attacks (ie if the fleet were first seen at Southampton they would have lit the beacon there - they would not have sent a runner to Lands End :P )

Again, this has probably been hashed out and I see the one-way beacon chain is a feature from the first drafts.
BUT for gameplay it seems to me that it would be more balanced to allow equal access to the chain from the LB’s and provide attacks in both directions. Perhaps this could be implemented with minor adjustment by isolating Penzance LB from the beacons as the other LB’s are and changing the attack arrows? (Maybe create a neutral region around the Penzance beacon within Penzance OR put 6 neutrals on the Penzance beacon itself?) Otherwise it seems a bit pointless/unfair to give ONE starting spot access to a feature like this.

Likewise, a simple “fix” for de Parma might be to make SS Sao Luis and Zuñiga border Army Antwerpen. Might have to boost the neutrals though.

In some games one player/team drops BOTH Sao Martinho and Penzance.
These changes would give ALL British starting positions access to the beacon feature if they want to fight through neutrals for it. The de Parma “option” would be open to TWO Spanish starting positions. And only 4 starting positions would have no access to “special features”.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:21 pm

Am I assuming correctly that Supply Ships, LB Army Brussel, and de Parma F & R don't count toward the 9 same nation for +1?
The legend says "Land Base Armies count as part of Spanish Nation Bonus". LB Army Brussel would seem to fit the definition of a "Land Base Army", but in one game I have 6 army territs besides the LB Army Brussel. I started with two Spanish ships, which gave me two single ships with a shield on them (for 8 total same nation). It looks like I have to grab one more ship next turn for the +1 to kick in.
Perhaps it would be best to change the legend text to "Land Armies count as..." or "Generic land Armies count as...". Could maybe also change the name of "LB Army Brussel" to simply "LB Brussel" so players don't count it inadvertently as an Army and a same nation element.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:14 pm

jonofperu wrote:"Hugo de Moncado" shows up in spoils as "Hugo de Moncada"
Not sure which is right, although I do know people with the last name Moncada.

Moncada appears correct...adjusted in next V45. Thanks. :)
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:22 pm

jonofperu wrote:Santa Cruz incorrect mutual bombardment with Santa Ana Stern (as well as San Buenaventura as previously pointed out)

Fixed in next xml
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