Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:45 pm

EricPhail wrote:Few more dodgy borders:
Mutual Bombardment between San Juan de Portugal Bow and San Salvador (shouldn't exist it's out of range)
Santa Anna Stern Bombards San Buena Ventura (again it's out of range and should exist)
PTL(A) bombarding Ark Royal Stern (as above)
TF(A) bombarding Margate (again out of range)

PTL (A) - White Bear Should be Mutual Bombardment
Tiger - GL (A) should be mutual
York - Margate LB should be mutual

Achatae should bombard plymouth

That's all I can see at the moment (could still be others)


Eric, thanks for those...i'll fix in the file...
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:21 am

Question on one bonus: "Hold Monarch's Commander's Flag-Ship & corresponding Treasury +3"
Does that mean you have to hold both sides of the Flag Ship (also gaining +1)
AND the whole treasury all the way to +5? (I'm assuming that's the way it works)
Or does the +3 bonus kick in if you hold the Flag Ship & the first Treasury (+1) spot?
P.S. The one-way arrows are slightly off on the Spanish side - covering part of the T letters.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby Gilligan on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:25 am

jonofperu wrote:Question on one bonus: "Hold Monarch's Commander's Flag-Ship & corresponding Treasury +3"
Does that mean you have to hold both sides of the Flag Ship (also gaining +1)
AND the whole treasury all the way to +5? (I'm assuming that's the way it works)
Or does the +3 bonus kick in if you hold the Flag Ship & the first Treasury (+1) spot?
P.S. The one-way arrows are slightly off on the Spanish side - covering part of the T letters.


It means the whole treasury, yeah. The +3 refers to the bonus, not the +3 auto in the treasury. And yeah, you need both sides of the ship as well.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:33 am

Another thing I just noticed. I saw a player trying out this map say in chat that he tried to take a territ from another player to get him under 12 before his first turn. Seeing there are no other indications (that I can see) 12 territs should give +4 deploy. But the map says "Maximum Starting Regions: 9" and since you actually start with 12 and only get +3 deploy, does that mean the Monarch Commander spots don't count? Seems a bit confusing, but I'd hate to add more text to the map.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby Gilligan on Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:42 am

jonofperu wrote:Another thing I just noticed. I saw a player trying out this map say in chat that he tried to take a territ from another player to get him under 12 before his first turn. Seeing there are no other indications (that I can see) 12 territs should give +4 deploy. But the map says "Maximum Starting Regions: 9" and since you actually start with 12 and only get +3 deploy, does that mean the Monarch Commander spots don't count? Seems a bit confusing, but I'd hate to add more text to the map.


This is a good point. Perhaps it's supposed to read "maximum starting troops: 9"?

For the most part, regions are divided by 8.

<reinforcements>
<reinforcement>
<lower>1</lower>
<upper>48</upper>
<divisor>8</divisor>
</reinforcement>
</reinforcements>

What I don't understand, though, is why in Game 13644393 6 for 125...maybe cairns can clear this up.

But, going back to your point, with 12 regions he'll get only 3.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:34 pm

Yeah, I've seen other examples of odd base deploy numbers on this map like the one you mention. It's a mystery. With nothing specified my understanding is that base deploy should be 1 per 3 minimum 3.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [28.9.13] V43 Assassin Neutral D

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:10 pm

iancanton wrote:good work on the neutrals! ....

the maximum starting positions is 3 (3 positions of 3 regions each); the maximum starting regions is 9.
...
ian. :)


Gilligan wrote:
jonofperu wrote:Another thing I just noticed. I saw a player trying out this map say in chat that he tried to take a territ from another player to get him under 12 before his first turn. Seeing there are no other indications (that I can see) 12 territs should give +4 deploy. But the map says "Maximum Starting Regions: 9" and since you actually start with 12 and only get +3 deploy, does that mean the Monarch Commander spots don't count? Seems a bit confusing, but I'd hate to add more text to the map.


This is a good point. Perhaps it's supposed to read "maximum starting troops: 9"?


Gilligan, above is part of a conversation with ian where it was suggested how to word this.



Let's examine the start of Game 13644393

2013-11-25 17:54:36 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Don Diego Medrano M1
2013-11-25 17:54:36 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Hugo de Moncada M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Sir Martin Frobisher M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Sir John Hawkins M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Ld Henry Seymour M1
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher got bonus of 1 troops added to Sir William Winter M1

i_Cypher appears to have recevied 6 starting groups, and should not have...because if there are 12 groups, then the way the drop engine should have worked is 12/3=4...so i_Cypher should have only got 4 start groups not 6.

The same seems to have occured for his opponent receiving 6 start groups.

I know from exmaination of 3 player games that the game engine is allocating 4 start groups in these games, so that appears correct.

Question: given that there is no <positions max="4"> in the xml, then is the game engine working correctly...has it been adjusted from 8 player to 12 player?

For action: to overcome this shortfall insert <positions max="4"> into the xml.

2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding SS Bazana
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding SS Sáo Luis
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding Penzance LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding Brighton LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding London LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 1 troops for holding Margate LB
2013-11-25 17:54:37 - i_Cypher received 3 troops for 24 regions


Following on...
Gilligan wrote:... regions are divided by 8.
<reinforcements>
<reinforcement>
<lower>1</lower>
<upper>48</upper>
<divisor>8</divisor>
</reinforcement>
</reinforcements>

in the above, i_Cypher recevied +1 auto drop on each of 6 Monarchs and reinforcement of +1 for supply ships and land bases (6 in total)...so that appears to work corrcetly.

i_Cypher at that point had 24 territories (6x4 start positions) which, if working according to the reinforcement rules (1=lower and 48=upper), would appear correct...(24/8 divisor =3)...3 troops for 24 regions as reinformcements.

2013-11-25 17:55:10 - i_Cypher deployed 7 troops on Vanguard Bow
2013-11-25 17:55:13 - i_Cypher deployed 2 troops on Sir William Winter M1

i_Cypher thus had a total of 9 troops to deploy (but this appears to have had nothing to do with what that wording stated on the map).


What I don't understand, though, is why in Game 13644393 6 for 125...maybe cairns can clear this up.

Same as above applies here. The upper limit is 48...anything above that (49-125) appears to be discarded, so the max reinforcements is 6 (48/8=6)

This was done, so that no player in a 1v1 game particularly at start would have too many troops to overwhelm an opponent so easily with a reinfrocement drop.

So given that..."positions max="4" " needs implementing, this will bring the current start reinforcements of 9 down to...

SSs and LBs > 4
+
start territories (16/8) 2
= 6

Do players want this?
or
Do players want to leave the current 1v1 split at 6 groups each? (meaning the current start drop of 9 remains)

If this analysis is correct above...then i'd be happy to re-word the "Starting Regions..." to "Max. Start Reinforcements 1v1: 6 or 9"
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:18 pm

"Hugo de Moncado" shows up in spoils as "Hugo de Moncada"
Not sure which is right, although I do know people with the last name Moncada.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:05 pm

Santa Cruz incorrect mutual bombardment with Santa Ana Stern (as well as San Buenaventura as previously pointed out)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby tec805 on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:42 pm

Would it be possible to make the text a little sharper? Hurts my eyes reading soft small fonts (I'm running 2560x1600, so everything is a little small, but I don't have eye-strain issues with any other maps I play).
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby Jackofalltrades on Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:08 pm

scanned last page or so and didn't see mention of it but isn't Victory's Stern supposed to be able to assault the treasury of sir john hopkins?? bob sees it but can't click it or select it from the dropdown menu... sorry if this issue is repeated elsewhere and pending correction. i don't float the cartography forum much.

**edit** nevermind i initially misunderstood the conditional boundry...
Last edited by Jackofalltrades on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:06 pm

I'm new to this map and came to the foundry because I was enjoying the play in Beta. Great map! =D>
Cairnswk, I read your frustration comments earlier and I apologize in advance for bringing up gameplay issues. As a fledgling cartographer myself I appreciate the amount of work you've put into this and if things can't be changed at this point please just ignore everything I say! And one more apology you have every right to ignore me for: I haven't read all 46 pages in the thread… I started, but we’re all limited on time, so I’ll just have to share my observations in case they help, though they might be worthless. I completely appreciate your right to burn them without reading... ;)
So I fearfully dare to speak without any intention of sounding arrogant. :oops:

Anyway, it seems to me that there are a couple of places where the map provides an unfair advantage. I've been playing it on many settings.
If you start on Sao Martinho you can make a quick dash for the de Parma bonuses.
If you start on Penzance LB you can pick up the beacon bonus and potentially break out into your oponents' backyards. True, you have to break through neutrals to get out of the beacons, but only Penzance starts on top of the bonus/back door. You can use the beacon chain partially from most of the other LB's, but you have to break IN and OUT of the chain and you can never work back to Penzance.
I’m in a game right now where I have an opponent coming at me out of the Penzance-based beacon chain (reinforcing those Sir Martin Frobisher auto-deploys all the way I think) and I have NO way to counter-attack without fighting through a bunch of neutrals across too many territs (he’s concentrated on that side of the map).
So I think the one-way route is the most troubling for gameplay.

Way back at the beginning I saw MrBenn said about the beacons:
I understand the desire to have them starting at Lands End, but for gameplay purposes I think it would be better to make them 2-way attacks (ie if the fleet were first seen at Southampton they would have lit the beacon there - they would not have sent a runner to Lands End :P )

Again, this has probably been hashed out and I see the one-way beacon chain is a feature from the first drafts.
BUT for gameplay it seems to me that it would be more balanced to allow equal access to the chain from the LB’s and provide attacks in both directions. Perhaps this could be implemented with minor adjustment by isolating Penzance LB from the beacons as the other LB’s are and changing the attack arrows? (Maybe create a neutral region around the Penzance beacon within Penzance OR put 6 neutrals on the Penzance beacon itself?) Otherwise it seems a bit pointless/unfair to give ONE starting spot access to a feature like this.

Likewise, a simple “fix” for de Parma might be to make SS Sao Luis and Zuñiga border Army Antwerpen. Might have to boost the neutrals though.

In some games one player/team drops BOTH Sao Martinho and Penzance.
These changes would give ALL British starting positions access to the beacon feature if they want to fight through neutrals for it. The de Parma “option” would be open to TWO Spanish starting positions. And only 4 starting positions would have no access to “special features”.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:21 pm

Am I assuming correctly that Supply Ships, LB Army Brussel, and de Parma F & R don't count toward the 9 same nation for +1?
The legend says "Land Base Armies count as part of Spanish Nation Bonus". LB Army Brussel would seem to fit the definition of a "Land Base Army", but in one game I have 6 army territs besides the LB Army Brussel. I started with two Spanish ships, which gave me two single ships with a shield on them (for 8 total same nation). It looks like I have to grab one more ship next turn for the +1 to kick in.
Perhaps it would be best to change the legend text to "Land Armies count as..." or "Generic land Armies count as...". Could maybe also change the name of "LB Army Brussel" to simply "LB Brussel" so players don't count it inadvertently as an Army and a same nation element.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:14 pm

jonofperu wrote:"Hugo de Moncado" shows up in spoils as "Hugo de Moncada"
Not sure which is right, although I do know people with the last name Moncada.

Moncada appears correct...adjusted in next V45. Thanks. :)
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:22 pm

jonofperu wrote:Santa Cruz incorrect mutual bombardment with Santa Ana Stern (as well as San Buenaventura as previously pointed out)

Fixed in next xml
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:23 pm

tec805 wrote:Would it be possible to make the text a little sharper? Hurts my eyes reading soft small fonts (I'm running 2560x1600, so everything is a little small, but I don't have eye-strain issues with any other maps I play).

I'll ask tnb80 if he can sharpen the images :)
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:25 pm

Jackofalltrades wrote:scanned last page or so and didn't see mention of it but isn't Victory's Stern supposed to be able to assault the treasury of sir john hopkins?? bob sees it but can't click it or select it from the dropdown menu... sorry if this issue is repeated elsewhere and pending correction. i don't float the cartography forum much.

**edit** nevermind i initially misunderstood the conditional boundry...

so you're all sorted on this now?
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:00 pm

jonofperu wrote:...
Anyway, it seems to me that there are a couple of places where the map provides an unfair advantage. I've been playing it on many settings.
If you start on Sao Martinho you can make a quick dash for the de Parma bonuses.

True, but only if that becomes your goal...i've played games where this bonus it totally ignored...as with lots of the bonuses that lie around this map that are there for the grab, some are ignored so that players can quickly assassinate their opponents !!

If you start on Penzance LB you can pick up the beacon bonus and potentially break out into your oponents' backyards. True, you have to break through neutrals to get out of the beacons, but only Penzance starts on top of the bonus/back door. You can use the beacon chain partially from most of the other LB's, but you have to break IN and OUT of the chain and you can never work back to Penzance.
I’m in a game right now where I have an opponent coming at me out of the Penzance-based beacon chain (reinforcing those Sir Martin Frobisher auto-deploys all the way I think) and I have NO way to counter-attack without fighting through a bunch of neutrals across too many territs (he’s concentrated on that side of the map).
So I think the one-way route is the most troubling for gameplay.

Since in RL, the beacons were first lit from Penzance when the Armada was first spotted, this makes sense to be able to start the chain from here.

Way back at the beginning I saw MrBenn said about the beacons:

MrBenn wrote:I understand the desire to have them starting at Lands End, but for gameplay purposes I think it would be better to make them 2-way attacks (ie if the fleet were first seen at Southampton they would have lit the beacon there - they would not have sent a runner to Lands End :P )


Again, this has probably been hashed out and I see the one-way beacon chain is a feature from the first drafts.
BUT for gameplay it seems to me that it would be more balanced to allow equal access to the chain from the LB’s and provide attacks in both directions. Perhaps this could be implemented with minor adjustment by isolating Penzance LB from the beacons as the other LB’s are and changing the attack arrows? (Maybe create a neutral region around the Penzance beacon within Penzance OR put 6 neutrals on the Penzance beacon itself?) Otherwise it seems a bit pointless/unfair to give ONE starting spot access to a feature like this.


yes Beacons were on the very first draft...the Beacons were lit from Penzance (Cornwall) in order to warn London that the Armada was approaching.
The discussion also got slightly lost with everything else that was going on at the time with other aspects.
In reality, the beacons sit on the land and the land has to be occupied first in order to light the beacons...
The concept of opening the beacons up to being lit from land long the way was done in order to implement MrBenn's suggestion...and provide some opportunity to assaulting that chain if your opponent held the chain for some length.
There is in fact access to the chain at Plymouth, Portsmith and Hastings...but it from land.
By providing two way attack at those points, simply means that land gets occupied as a result of holding that beacon which goes against the initial concept of lighting the beacon from the land.
I don't think Penzance has an unfair advantage, since this is where the reaction should start in conjuction with being held from the drop, and you then have to work to gain the rest, same as with the land.

Likewise, a simple “fix” for de Parma might be to make SS Sao Luis and Zuñiga border Army Antwerpen. Might have to boost the neutrals though.

I understand, but this doesn't conform with actual reality, since the base for Army De Parma was at Calais (Kalais) in order to board ships for the invasion....at no other point i.e. Antwerp was there access for de Parma's land army.

In some games one player/team drops BOTH Sao Martinho and Penzance.
These changes would give ALL British starting positions access to the beacon feature if they want to fight through neutrals for it. The de Parma “option” would be open to TWO Spanish starting positions. And only 4 starting positions would have no access to “special features”.

The option here in reality is to make "sides" so that each sides gets the correct ships i.e. British v Spanish, but that is not possible in the current xml.
I think that if a player gets both drops, that is his advantage, because it will not always fall that way.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:04 pm

jonofperu wrote:Am I assuming correctly that Supply Ships, LB Army Brussel, and de Parma F & R don't count toward the 9 same nation for +1?
The legend says "Land Base Armies count as part of Spanish Nation Bonus". LB Army Brussel would seem to fit the definition of a "Land Base Army", but in one game I have 6 army territs besides the LB Army Brussel. I started with two Spanish ships, which gave me two single ships with a shield on them (for 8 total same nation). It looks like I have to grab one more ship next turn for the +1 to kick in.
Perhaps it would be best to change the legend text to "Land Armies count as..." or "Generic land Armies count as...". Could maybe also change the name of "LB Army Brussel" to simply "LB Brussel" so players don't count it inadvertently as an Army and a same nation element.

Before i answer this...can i have a game number please.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:38 pm

Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns, cairnswk!

Here are some screenshots from Game 13698562 to explain the "9 same nation" +1 bonus:
Click image to enlarge.
image


The screen shot is from Round 8 after Green's turn. Green holds all of Army de Parma as well as Diana and Sao Mateus (the 2 "single ships" that are part of the starting positions while not being SS or LB). de Parma includes 6 regular army territs as well as the "LB Army Brussel". My point is that all this should add up to 9 same nation and give the +1 bonus. LB Army Brussel should count because it is by definition a "Land Base Army" and the legend reads "Land Base Armies count as part of the Spanish Nation Bonus."
7 de Parma army territs (including LB Army Brussel) + Diana and Sao Mateus = 9

... but I didn't get the bonus. So I figured, OK, LB Army Brussel doesn't count. I took Florencia next turn to see if that would give me 9 same nation:
6 de Parma territs + Diana and Sao Mateus + Florencia = 9 (Green conquered Florencia in Round 9).
I still didn't get the bonus.
Click image to enlarge.
image


So apparently the single ships with shields on them don't count either toward 9 same nation although there is no indication of this. And I'm assuming LB Army Brussel does not count as a "Land Base Army" - confusing!

In Round 10 I took Sao Felipe, El Crucifijo, Zuñiga (shield/sp) and this was sufficient to receive the +1 in Round 11.
Click image to enlarge.
image


This would probably be more easily figured out looking at the XML, but I had to do it by trial and error in a game. :?

As I mentioned before, if this is functioning as intended I think you could change the text of the legend since the land base is precisely the territory that does not count (perhaps to "De Parma Army territories count...") and change the name of LB Army Brussel to simply "LB Brussel".
The ships with shields should really count as single ships, I don't see why they wouldn't - they are just the single ships you start with.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:29 pm

OK, the current xml gives a +2 bonus for Army de Parma, so you should have got that.
Code: Select all
<continent>
   <name>Army de Parma</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Army Antwerpen</territory>
      <territory>Army Gent</territory>
      <territory>Army Brugge</territory>
      <territory>Army Tielt</territory>
      <territory>Army Ieper</territory>
      <territory>Army Kales</territory>
      <territory>LB Army Brussel</territory>
      <territory>Army de Parma Rear</territory>
      <territory>Army de Parma Front</territory>
   </components>
</continent>


AS for the Spanish Nations bonus, the only territory of the Army De Parma that is in Spanish Nation bonus is the LB Army Brussel, literally taken that Land Base Army i.e. Brussel is the only named LB Army, not the other regions of the Army de Parma.

So i think that notation could probably change...to read...
"de Parma’s Land Armies count as part of Spanish Nation Bonus"
thus those territories for Army de Parma would be included in the xml continent for Spanish Ships.
Also in this way, perhaps this will balance against the Beacons.
Would you be happy with this?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:40 am

Wow, I had this completely wrong then. :oops:
I should have just looked at the XML I guess. First time looking through a complete map XML... lol

I now see that Supply Ships count, as does LB Army Brussel, but the rest of de Parma DOES NOT. Ships with shields count (I see now that Diana is named in the legend - should have noticed that).

(I did get the +2 de Parma and +1 de Parma F & R bonuses as well as the LB Army Brussel +1. I was only looking for what conditions triggered the same nation bonus.)

So here's what confused me...
Why make a special mention of "Land Base Armies" to include ONLY LB Army Brussel in a 9 ship bonus?
Personally I wouldn't include that one Land Base. There are more Spanish ships than British anyway. If you include it, shouldn't you include the British LB's? IF you include LB's the legend could read "Land Bases count as part of the same nation bonus". But it's a "ships of the same nation" bonus, so why include a Land Base anyway (or armies, for that matter)??

Your solution works for clarity - it's what I initially assumed the legend to indicate. It gave me a small additional reason to go for the de Parma army.
By the way, this emphasizes the value of dropping Sao Martinho or Triumph starting positions. IF de Parma armies count toward the same nation bonus, then with all of de Parma and 1 Spanish starting position (say Sao Martinho, which would be logical) you have an extra +1. So if you dropped Sao Martinho and took the whole de Parma region you would get a total of +5.
Thats better than the beacons bonus with fewer territs to conquer. (9 vs 12 although with a n3 on Army Kales)
But wait, that seems like double-counting the de Parma region, since you get +2 for holding it and once you hold it you also most likely score the +1 Spanish nation bonus.

In my opinion adding the de Parma armies to the same nation bonus doesn't balance the beacons bonus because one player/team can easily drop BOTH and then it's a double advantage to them.
I have less of a problem with the de Parma region than with the beacons mechanic. It feels less protected in my experience.
The one-way beacon chain is more of a problem because it gives protection (can't attack in the opposite direction) and access for attacking out on the other end of the map.

cairnswk wrote:i've played games where this bonus it totally ignored

True, I have as well. But I've also played games where once the treasuries are cleared this is the next logical bonus opportunity.
The fundamental problem is that the beacons and de Parma become an opportunity ONLY for those who drop on them. They are unique among the map's bonuses. It's not like they are just 2 more bonuses out there which any of the players can chose from. Sure, in many scenarios they will be ignored. But if they were totally irrelevant, why have them anyway?
They provide a unique opportunity to obtain an extra uncontested bonus and the beacons have other additional advantages.

cairnswk wrote:By providing two way attack at those points, simply means that land gets occupied as a result of holding that beacon which goes against the initial concept of lighting the beacon from the land.

One-way attack allows land to get occupied from the beacons as things stand - being able to attack to/from the beacons to the land at several points isn't the issue. The issue is it's an unfair advantage to whoever comes from the left side. If you're trying to counter someone coming up the beacon chain you are blind (with fog) and can only defend. You can cut the chain, but can't counter-attack. You also have to fight through neutrals to get to the beacons, while Penzance starts right on one.
I appreciate the desire to reflect the historical function of the beacons, but I really think gameplay needs to trump the historical scenario here. Just my opinion!
I think the graphics and layout can communicate the historical function of the beacons, while 2-way attacks would change the gameplay to something more interesting and fair.
All metaphors break down. The beacons only gave a warning, they didn't carry troops to attack London. They also had a one-time use.
So I don't see any problem in the storyline with breaking things up a little.

To summarize I recommend:
1. Drop LB Army Brussel from the same nation bonus and eliminate the reference to it in the legend. It's a ships bonus. Alternatively include all LB's OR all armies.
2. Give the beacon chain two-way attacks and maybe put n6's on the two end beacons. This puts Penzance and London on equal footing with the other LB's for access to the beacon chain and protection from it.
Two way beacon attacks would still provide a gameplay dynamic similar to their historical function in that whoever uses the beacons could gain the advantage of surprise over their enemies. Actually as things stand this is exactly what they offer the person who starts on Penzance - they just don't let anyone else use it quite as effectively.

P.S. Merry Christmas! :D
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:25 pm

Can you give me the above in about 2 lines please. I hate reading long analyses ;) because i have to get into your mind and that i hate.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:52 am

LOL, I haven't checked back in a while.
Hmm... 2 lines...

De Parma and beacons provide a unique opportunity to obtain an extra uncontested bonus. There is therefore an unfair advantage to those who drop Penzance or Sao Martinho.
The beacons can attack land already, the issue is they provide an unfair advantage to whoever attacks from the left. Metaphors break down: the beacons didn't carry troops to attack London. Therefore let the graphics convey the historical scenario and change the game function to something more fair and balanced (2-way attacks, with n6 on London and Penzance beacons).
The ships bonus should apply only to ships. I would drop all reference to land armies and remove them from the bonus. De Parma doesn't balance beacons because one side can drop both.

Well 4 lines was the best I could do. I was really temped to add a 5th... ;)
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:08 pm

jonofperu wrote:...
De Parma and beacons provide a unique opportunity to obtain an extra uncontested bonus. There is therefore an unfair advantage to those who drop Penzance or Sao Martinho.

Agreed there is an extra bonus for someone who drops Soa Martinho - if they take that opportunity - and not everyone does. There is enough bonus in de Parma (+2 and +1) to balance the beacons. And since it was Medina Sedonia who was to pick-up De Parma to invde england, M. Sedonia is well placed to do this.
Agreed there is opportunity for whomever drops Penzance but that is only +1 until PLymouth B. After that 4 of the other English LBs have opportunity to take a beacon bonus. Unfair from the English side - i think not.

The beacons can attack land already, the issue is they provide an unfair advantage to whoever attacks from the left.
But that is only if the Penzance holder decides if they want the entire beacon line for +4. It is up to other players who hold the intermediate beacons to take advantage of that +1 and hold it to stop the opponent beacon from assaulting.

Metaphors break down: the beacons didn't carry troops to attack London. Therefore let the graphics convey the historical scenario and change the game function to something more fair and balanced (2-way attacks, with n6 on London and Penzance beacons).

NO the beacons didn't carry troops, but they did provide a warning, which in those days was instant messaging and as good as having extra troops avialble.
The graphics do convey the historical scenario well.
and considering there are only 52 english ships as opposed to 61 spanish ships, i think the beacons don't need any extra balance.

The ships bonus should apply only to ships. I would drop all reference to land armies and remove them from the bonus. De Parma doesn't balance beacons because one side can drop both.

Yes, one side can drop both, but then neither could any player if the game engine decides on allocating these as neutrals.
I don't agree about land armies not being part of the ships bonus, the spanish carried their supplies aboard in the SS vessel, the English have to get theirs from somewhere.

So, because of this next bit, i am wanting to finalise this map before next week.
The other thing is, that you are the only person who has discussed for these changes, and i would have likeed to have seen others who agree with you discuss the same.

Next week, I am changing my operating system from XP to Win8, and thus the software (Illustrator and Fireworks CS3) that was used for this map will no longer be operational on Win8 (unless CC wants to provide me with software replacement at their cost).
Therefore i will make final changes to this map this weekend, and after that, it will not be worked on further, as i am not going to spend more time taking the map over to PS5.
This also applies to Gallipoli which is done in Coreldraw.
Thank Microsoft for this.
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