Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:23 pm

tec805 wrote:Would it be possible to make the text a little sharper? Hurts my eyes reading soft small fonts (I'm running 2560x1600, so everything is a little small, but I don't have eye-strain issues with any other maps I play).

I'll ask tnb80 if he can sharpen the images :)
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:25 pm

Jackofalltrades wrote:scanned last page or so and didn't see mention of it but isn't Victory's Stern supposed to be able to assault the treasury of sir john hopkins?? bob sees it but can't click it or select it from the dropdown menu... sorry if this issue is repeated elsewhere and pending correction. i don't float the cartography forum much.

**edit** nevermind i initially misunderstood the conditional boundry...

so you're all sorted on this now?
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:00 pm

jonofperu wrote:...
Anyway, it seems to me that there are a couple of places where the map provides an unfair advantage. I've been playing it on many settings.
If you start on Sao Martinho you can make a quick dash for the de Parma bonuses.

True, but only if that becomes your goal...i've played games where this bonus it totally ignored...as with lots of the bonuses that lie around this map that are there for the grab, some are ignored so that players can quickly assassinate their opponents !!

If you start on Penzance LB you can pick up the beacon bonus and potentially break out into your oponents' backyards. True, you have to break through neutrals to get out of the beacons, but only Penzance starts on top of the bonus/back door. You can use the beacon chain partially from most of the other LB's, but you have to break IN and OUT of the chain and you can never work back to Penzance.
I’m in a game right now where I have an opponent coming at me out of the Penzance-based beacon chain (reinforcing those Sir Martin Frobisher auto-deploys all the way I think) and I have NO way to counter-attack without fighting through a bunch of neutrals across too many territs (he’s concentrated on that side of the map).
So I think the one-way route is the most troubling for gameplay.

Since in RL, the beacons were first lit from Penzance when the Armada was first spotted, this makes sense to be able to start the chain from here.

Way back at the beginning I saw MrBenn said about the beacons:

MrBenn wrote:I understand the desire to have them starting at Lands End, but for gameplay purposes I think it would be better to make them 2-way attacks (ie if the fleet were first seen at Southampton they would have lit the beacon there - they would not have sent a runner to Lands End :P )


Again, this has probably been hashed out and I see the one-way beacon chain is a feature from the first drafts.
BUT for gameplay it seems to me that it would be more balanced to allow equal access to the chain from the LB’s and provide attacks in both directions. Perhaps this could be implemented with minor adjustment by isolating Penzance LB from the beacons as the other LB’s are and changing the attack arrows? (Maybe create a neutral region around the Penzance beacon within Penzance OR put 6 neutrals on the Penzance beacon itself?) Otherwise it seems a bit pointless/unfair to give ONE starting spot access to a feature like this.


yes Beacons were on the very first draft...the Beacons were lit from Penzance (Cornwall) in order to warn London that the Armada was approaching.
The discussion also got slightly lost with everything else that was going on at the time with other aspects.
In reality, the beacons sit on the land and the land has to be occupied first in order to light the beacons...
The concept of opening the beacons up to being lit from land long the way was done in order to implement MrBenn's suggestion...and provide some opportunity to assaulting that chain if your opponent held the chain for some length.
There is in fact access to the chain at Plymouth, Portsmith and Hastings...but it from land.
By providing two way attack at those points, simply means that land gets occupied as a result of holding that beacon which goes against the initial concept of lighting the beacon from the land.
I don't think Penzance has an unfair advantage, since this is where the reaction should start in conjuction with being held from the drop, and you then have to work to gain the rest, same as with the land.

Likewise, a simple “fix” for de Parma might be to make SS Sao Luis and Zuñiga border Army Antwerpen. Might have to boost the neutrals though.

I understand, but this doesn't conform with actual reality, since the base for Army De Parma was at Calais (Kalais) in order to board ships for the invasion....at no other point i.e. Antwerp was there access for de Parma's land army.

In some games one player/team drops BOTH Sao Martinho and Penzance.
These changes would give ALL British starting positions access to the beacon feature if they want to fight through neutrals for it. The de Parma “option” would be open to TWO Spanish starting positions. And only 4 starting positions would have no access to “special features”.

The option here in reality is to make "sides" so that each sides gets the correct ships i.e. British v Spanish, but that is not possible in the current xml.
I think that if a player gets both drops, that is his advantage, because it will not always fall that way.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:04 pm

jonofperu wrote:Am I assuming correctly that Supply Ships, LB Army Brussel, and de Parma F & R don't count toward the 9 same nation for +1?
The legend says "Land Base Armies count as part of Spanish Nation Bonus". LB Army Brussel would seem to fit the definition of a "Land Base Army", but in one game I have 6 army territs besides the LB Army Brussel. I started with two Spanish ships, which gave me two single ships with a shield on them (for 8 total same nation). It looks like I have to grab one more ship next turn for the +1 to kick in.
Perhaps it would be best to change the legend text to "Land Armies count as..." or "Generic land Armies count as...". Could maybe also change the name of "LB Army Brussel" to simply "LB Brussel" so players don't count it inadvertently as an Army and a same nation element.

Before i answer this...can i have a game number please.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:38 pm

Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns, cairnswk!

Here are some screenshots from Game 13698562 to explain the "9 same nation" +1 bonus:
Click image to enlarge.
image


The screen shot is from Round 8 after Green's turn. Green holds all of Army de Parma as well as Diana and Sao Mateus (the 2 "single ships" that are part of the starting positions while not being SS or LB). de Parma includes 6 regular army territs as well as the "LB Army Brussel". My point is that all this should add up to 9 same nation and give the +1 bonus. LB Army Brussel should count because it is by definition a "Land Base Army" and the legend reads "Land Base Armies count as part of the Spanish Nation Bonus."
7 de Parma army territs (including LB Army Brussel) + Diana and Sao Mateus = 9

... but I didn't get the bonus. So I figured, OK, LB Army Brussel doesn't count. I took Florencia next turn to see if that would give me 9 same nation:
6 de Parma territs + Diana and Sao Mateus + Florencia = 9 (Green conquered Florencia in Round 9).
I still didn't get the bonus.
Click image to enlarge.
image


So apparently the single ships with shields on them don't count either toward 9 same nation although there is no indication of this. And I'm assuming LB Army Brussel does not count as a "Land Base Army" - confusing!

In Round 10 I took Sao Felipe, El Crucifijo, Zuñiga (shield/sp) and this was sufficient to receive the +1 in Round 11.
Click image to enlarge.
image


This would probably be more easily figured out looking at the XML, but I had to do it by trial and error in a game. :?

As I mentioned before, if this is functioning as intended I think you could change the text of the legend since the land base is precisely the territory that does not count (perhaps to "De Parma Army territories count...") and change the name of LB Army Brussel to simply "LB Brussel".
The ships with shields should really count as single ships, I don't see why they wouldn't - they are just the single ships you start with.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:29 pm

OK, the current xml gives a +2 bonus for Army de Parma, so you should have got that.
Code: Select all
<continent>
   <name>Army de Parma</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Army Antwerpen</territory>
      <territory>Army Gent</territory>
      <territory>Army Brugge</territory>
      <territory>Army Tielt</territory>
      <territory>Army Ieper</territory>
      <territory>Army Kales</territory>
      <territory>LB Army Brussel</territory>
      <territory>Army de Parma Rear</territory>
      <territory>Army de Parma Front</territory>
   </components>
</continent>


AS for the Spanish Nations bonus, the only territory of the Army De Parma that is in Spanish Nation bonus is the LB Army Brussel, literally taken that Land Base Army i.e. Brussel is the only named LB Army, not the other regions of the Army de Parma.

So i think that notation could probably change...to read...
"de Parma’s Land Armies count as part of Spanish Nation Bonus"
thus those territories for Army de Parma would be included in the xml continent for Spanish Ships.
Also in this way, perhaps this will balance against the Beacons.
Would you be happy with this?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:40 am

Wow, I had this completely wrong then. :oops:
I should have just looked at the XML I guess. First time looking through a complete map XML... lol

I now see that Supply Ships count, as does LB Army Brussel, but the rest of de Parma DOES NOT. Ships with shields count (I see now that Diana is named in the legend - should have noticed that).

(I did get the +2 de Parma and +1 de Parma F & R bonuses as well as the LB Army Brussel +1. I was only looking for what conditions triggered the same nation bonus.)

So here's what confused me...
Why make a special mention of "Land Base Armies" to include ONLY LB Army Brussel in a 9 ship bonus?
Personally I wouldn't include that one Land Base. There are more Spanish ships than British anyway. If you include it, shouldn't you include the British LB's? IF you include LB's the legend could read "Land Bases count as part of the same nation bonus". But it's a "ships of the same nation" bonus, so why include a Land Base anyway (or armies, for that matter)??

Your solution works for clarity - it's what I initially assumed the legend to indicate. It gave me a small additional reason to go for the de Parma army.
By the way, this emphasizes the value of dropping Sao Martinho or Triumph starting positions. IF de Parma armies count toward the same nation bonus, then with all of de Parma and 1 Spanish starting position (say Sao Martinho, which would be logical) you have an extra +1. So if you dropped Sao Martinho and took the whole de Parma region you would get a total of +5.
Thats better than the beacons bonus with fewer territs to conquer. (9 vs 12 although with a n3 on Army Kales)
But wait, that seems like double-counting the de Parma region, since you get +2 for holding it and once you hold it you also most likely score the +1 Spanish nation bonus.

In my opinion adding the de Parma armies to the same nation bonus doesn't balance the beacons bonus because one player/team can easily drop BOTH and then it's a double advantage to them.
I have less of a problem with the de Parma region than with the beacons mechanic. It feels less protected in my experience.
The one-way beacon chain is more of a problem because it gives protection (can't attack in the opposite direction) and access for attacking out on the other end of the map.

cairnswk wrote:i've played games where this bonus it totally ignored

True, I have as well. But I've also played games where once the treasuries are cleared this is the next logical bonus opportunity.
The fundamental problem is that the beacons and de Parma become an opportunity ONLY for those who drop on them. They are unique among the map's bonuses. It's not like they are just 2 more bonuses out there which any of the players can chose from. Sure, in many scenarios they will be ignored. But if they were totally irrelevant, why have them anyway?
They provide a unique opportunity to obtain an extra uncontested bonus and the beacons have other additional advantages.

cairnswk wrote:By providing two way attack at those points, simply means that land gets occupied as a result of holding that beacon which goes against the initial concept of lighting the beacon from the land.

One-way attack allows land to get occupied from the beacons as things stand - being able to attack to/from the beacons to the land at several points isn't the issue. The issue is it's an unfair advantage to whoever comes from the left side. If you're trying to counter someone coming up the beacon chain you are blind (with fog) and can only defend. You can cut the chain, but can't counter-attack. You also have to fight through neutrals to get to the beacons, while Penzance starts right on one.
I appreciate the desire to reflect the historical function of the beacons, but I really think gameplay needs to trump the historical scenario here. Just my opinion!
I think the graphics and layout can communicate the historical function of the beacons, while 2-way attacks would change the gameplay to something more interesting and fair.
All metaphors break down. The beacons only gave a warning, they didn't carry troops to attack London. They also had a one-time use.
So I don't see any problem in the storyline with breaking things up a little.

To summarize I recommend:
1. Drop LB Army Brussel from the same nation bonus and eliminate the reference to it in the legend. It's a ships bonus. Alternatively include all LB's OR all armies.
2. Give the beacon chain two-way attacks and maybe put n6's on the two end beacons. This puts Penzance and London on equal footing with the other LB's for access to the beacon chain and protection from it.
Two way beacon attacks would still provide a gameplay dynamic similar to their historical function in that whoever uses the beacons could gain the advantage of surprise over their enemies. Actually as things stand this is exactly what they offer the person who starts on Penzance - they just don't let anyone else use it quite as effectively.

P.S. Merry Christmas! :D
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:25 pm

Can you give me the above in about 2 lines please. I hate reading long analyses ;) because i have to get into your mind and that i hate.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:52 am

LOL, I haven't checked back in a while.
Hmm... 2 lines...

De Parma and beacons provide a unique opportunity to obtain an extra uncontested bonus. There is therefore an unfair advantage to those who drop Penzance or Sao Martinho.
The beacons can attack land already, the issue is they provide an unfair advantage to whoever attacks from the left. Metaphors break down: the beacons didn't carry troops to attack London. Therefore let the graphics convey the historical scenario and change the game function to something more fair and balanced (2-way attacks, with n6 on London and Penzance beacons).
The ships bonus should apply only to ships. I would drop all reference to land armies and remove them from the bonus. De Parma doesn't balance beacons because one side can drop both.

Well 4 lines was the best I could do. I was really temped to add a 5th... ;)
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:08 pm

jonofperu wrote:...
De Parma and beacons provide a unique opportunity to obtain an extra uncontested bonus. There is therefore an unfair advantage to those who drop Penzance or Sao Martinho.

Agreed there is an extra bonus for someone who drops Soa Martinho - if they take that opportunity - and not everyone does. There is enough bonus in de Parma (+2 and +1) to balance the beacons. And since it was Medina Sedonia who was to pick-up De Parma to invde england, M. Sedonia is well placed to do this.
Agreed there is opportunity for whomever drops Penzance but that is only +1 until PLymouth B. After that 4 of the other English LBs have opportunity to take a beacon bonus. Unfair from the English side - i think not.

The beacons can attack land already, the issue is they provide an unfair advantage to whoever attacks from the left.
But that is only if the Penzance holder decides if they want the entire beacon line for +4. It is up to other players who hold the intermediate beacons to take advantage of that +1 and hold it to stop the opponent beacon from assaulting.

Metaphors break down: the beacons didn't carry troops to attack London. Therefore let the graphics convey the historical scenario and change the game function to something more fair and balanced (2-way attacks, with n6 on London and Penzance beacons).

NO the beacons didn't carry troops, but they did provide a warning, which in those days was instant messaging and as good as having extra troops avialble.
The graphics do convey the historical scenario well.
and considering there are only 52 english ships as opposed to 61 spanish ships, i think the beacons don't need any extra balance.

The ships bonus should apply only to ships. I would drop all reference to land armies and remove them from the bonus. De Parma doesn't balance beacons because one side can drop both.

Yes, one side can drop both, but then neither could any player if the game engine decides on allocating these as neutrals.
I don't agree about land armies not being part of the ships bonus, the spanish carried their supplies aboard in the SS vessel, the English have to get theirs from somewhere.

So, because of this next bit, i am wanting to finalise this map before next week.
The other thing is, that you are the only person who has discussed for these changes, and i would have likeed to have seen others who agree with you discuss the same.

Next week, I am changing my operating system from XP to Win8, and thus the software (Illustrator and Fireworks CS3) that was used for this map will no longer be operational on Win8 (unless CC wants to provide me with software replacement at their cost).
Therefore i will make final changes to this map this weekend, and after that, it will not be worked on further, as i am not going to spend more time taking the map over to PS5.
This also applies to Gallipoli which is done in Coreldraw.
Thank Microsoft for this.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby jonofperu on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:54 am

If it doesn't work out with software, or I can't convince you, that's fine. Great map anyway! I'm now 20 of 21 on it. ;) If the map gets quenched as is, it's still my favorite right now!
Thanks for considering and responding to my observations, even though I'm the only one voicing these concerns at the moment.

No offense intended, but it appears to me that you have confused balance in the historical scenario with balance in gameplay.
The Spanish and English fleets are ONLY facing off in the historical scenario - in the game it's individual ships facing off regardless of nationality based on drop.
The Spanish and English fleets don't balance each other out because the drops aren't set to give one side all Spanish and the other all English.

I think you have to look at this map as 12 starting spots, not two nations.
You have to look at how possible drops affect the balance between players.
2 of the starting spots have an advantage no other spots have. Those 2 don't balance each other out because there is no guarantee of how they will drop. (1 player could have both, 1 could be neutral, etc.)

cairnswk wrote:NO the beacons didn't carry troops, but they did provide a warning, which in those days was instant messaging and as good as having extra troops avialble.

Again, the metaphor breaks down for me because the whole point of the beacon chain is to warn and give an advantage to London or the English fleet.
But the gameplay on the map isn't about English fleet vs Spanish. It's about 12 starting spots. The player who drops Penzance gets an advantage. (Ironically the chain gives an advantage to troops attacking London - opposite of the historical function).
Yes, other starting spots along the beacon chain can grab a piece of it. I've cut the chain and had it cut on me, but you have to fight through neutrals to get to it from other starting spots, while Penzance can take three n1s for +1, etc.
If someone uses the chain to attack you across the map, you have to fight through a lot of neutrals to get to Penzance and stop it - rather than counterattacking along the attack route and fighting your enemy all the way, which would be the ideal strategy.
If the beacons were 2-way a player would have to weigh the opportunity of attacking against the possibility of a counter-attack.

cairnswk wrote:I don't agree about land armies not being part of the ships bonus, the spanish carried their supplies aboard in the SS vessel, the English have to get theirs from somewhere.

I don't understand. In the same nation bonus the only "land army" included is LB Army Brussel. Do you mean the bonus should include the English LBs?
I think you mentioned adding the de Parma army territs to the bonus? Of course it could be a "same nation territ" bonus and you could include the English land territs since they provide supplies, but it just seems simplest to me to make it ships only. This part of the discussion is just about clarity in the legend as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I'm all alone in being dense or detailed enough to have gotten confused trying to figure out a +1 bonus. :lol:

All this is fairly minor as you have pointed out. The bonuses in question are small and don't always come into play.
However, since I love this map so much, I would love to see a couple tweaks to "perfect it" in my opinion.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby Jippd on Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:23 am

I also agree the beacons have advantage to those starting from the left, specifically triumph and starting with penzance LB. You can take a +1 bonus for only taking three neutral 1s.

I think the either way attack from the beacons is a good solution for the issue.


I would consider the sao martino bonus another possible problem too. Why should two spots have a strong advantage on the map compared to the rest. IE sao martino and the bonus in the bottom right corner and penzance LB getting to hit the beacons.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:49 pm

jonofperu, i'm going to ask you to give it a rest please. my displeasure is that you - like many others on this site - didn't bother too much to look at this while it was in devlopment. And therein lies the frustration of both sides.
I am tired of going round in circles with you, and i have other issues on my plate right now with software and backing up files.
The real problem is that yes the map is made for potentailly 12 players, but the game engine doesn't allow side v side play...

SO UNTIL THAT CHANGE OCCURS to adjust the xml, then the map stays as is.
Either that or we close the map entirely.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [31.10.13] V44 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:21 pm

Version 45.

Changes:
1. Moncada fixed.
2. "max positions" placed in xml = 4
3. Fixed - Santa Cruz incorrect mutual bombardment with Santa Ana Stern (as well as San Buenaventura
4. de Parma armies listed in xml as part of Spanish Nation bonus, and notated on map.
5. Capitania Bow no longer bombards EYS(D)

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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [11.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:01 pm

I agree with jonofperu and Jippd that there is a big advantage to whoever starts at Triumph. With all the 1s along the beacons, it makes it easy to attack to the right, and it's much more difficult for those starting on the right side of the map to respond. 2 way attacks on the beacons would be an ideal solution. Alternatively, it may be sufficient to change the starting neutrals on the beacons, either to 2 for all of them or to 3 on Penzance, Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Hastings beacons.

Also, one minor bug: Currently Capitania Bow and EYS(D) can mutually bombard. A visual analysis of the map suggests that they should not be able to do so. I think this should be a minor XML tweak to fix it.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [11.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby ChrisPond on Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:21 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:I agree with jonofperu and Jippd that there is a big advantage to whoever starts at Triumph. With all the 1s along the beacons, it makes it easy to attack to the right, and it's much more difficult for those starting on the right side of the map to respond. 2 way attacks on the beacons would be an ideal solution. Alternatively, it may be sufficient to change the starting neutrals on the beacons, either to 2 for all of them or to 3 on Penzance, Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Hastings beacons.

Also, one minor bug: Currently Capitania Bow and EYS(D) can mutually bombard. A visual analysis of the map suggests that they should not be able to do so. I think this should be a minor XML tweak to fix it.


I agree on the beacons. i think it is a huge advantage to start at triumph with those one way beacons. maybe they should be 2 way or the only strategy will be to stack to go right after triumph
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [11.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:25 pm

Thanks for the short and sweet style Doc. :)

Doc_Brown wrote:... 2 way attacks on the beacons would be an ideal solution.

This is already currently possible in the current xml (with the exception of the London Beacon). I just checked Game 13867815 in which jonofperu is a player.

Alternatively, it may be sufficient to change the starting neutrals on the beacons, either to 2 for all of them or to 3 on Penzance, Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Hastings beacons.

No need to go here because of the above.

Also, one minor bug: Currently Capitania Bow and EYS(D) can mutually bombard. A visual analysis of the map suggests that they should not be able to do so. I think this should be a minor XML tweak to fix it.

Fixed in the xml above.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.1.14] V45 XML fixing

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:31 pm

Awaiting upload.

Version 45.

Changes:
1. Moncada fixed.
2. "max positions" placed in xml = 4
3. Fixed - Santa Cruz incorrect mutual bombardment with Santa Ana Stern (as well as San Buenaventura
4. de Parma armies listed in xml as part of Spanish Nation bonus, and notated on map.
5. Capitania Bow no longer bombards EYS(D)

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:34 pm

Forwarded for uploading.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby Jippd on Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:09 pm

I'm confused. The beacons are a one way attack route but you are saying it is a two way attack route already? We are suggesting that you can go right to left on the beacons instead of just left to right.

I also think the neutral values should possibly be increased. For only three neutral 1s you can get a +1 by taking the beacons. It is an extremely low neutral cost to get a +1. so the Neutral expenditure to bonus ratio is fairly low compared to the rest of the map.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:41 pm

Jippd wrote:I'm confused. The beacons are a one way attack route but you are saying it is a two way attack route already? We are suggesting that you can go right to left on the beacons instead of just left to right.

Now that one i am totally against, for historical reasons. Beacons were lit from Penzance > London, not vicky verka.
Decision made: Not going to happen. Please don't bring that one up again.

I also think the neutral values should possibly be increased. For only three neutral 1s you can get a +1 by taking the beacons. It is an extremely low neutral cost to get a +1. so the Neutral expenditure to bonus ratio is fairly low compared to the rest of the map.

I don't think this would balance with the opposite De Parma bonus.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:01 pm

cairnswk wrote:
I also think the neutral values should possibly be increased. For only three neutral 1s you can get a +1 by taking the beacons. It is an extremely low neutral cost to get a +1. so the Neutral expenditure to bonus ratio is fairly low compared to the rest of the map.

I don't think this would balance with the opposite De Parma bonus.

Actually, I think it would be well balanced. For De Parma, you have to go through a neutral 3,1,1 to get a +1. You could also increase LB Army Brussel to a 2. Then just set to the 4 beacons with land access to neutral 3. I think that would balance pretty closely, especially given the strategic advantage of the beacons.

I think the beacon issue may be a bigger problem in quads games because each player only gets one ship and it is possible for one team to start on the left (say Triumph, Revenge, Capitania, and Santa Ana) and one on the right without good beacon access (say Rainbow, Vanguard, San Lorenzo, and San Cristobal). Team 1 stacks on Penzance LB, and the Triumph player rushes through 9 neutral 1s on his first two turns gaining a +3 that will be extremely difficult to break. From there, he goes through Hastings, Margate, and Cure to take out Vanguard. I'm not seeing a good counter for that without having to go through several 6s and 4s.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:55 pm

I am sorry, but am not well at present.

Any further discussion on the bloody beacons and i will have this map pulled down and you can create your bloody own.

I am sick and tired of arguing the point on this.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby Jippd on Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:43 pm

We are only trying to help make the map better by making sure it is a fair and balanced map. We are trying to assist you in producing the best product possible. I'm not sure why you are getting mad at people for trying to help you create a superior product?

The beta stage is designed to test things out and find out weaknesses so that it can get improved. There are different players coming here to give there input to try to help out. Even if that input is not something you agree with I am sure none of it is meant in malice.
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Re: Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

Postby Doc_Brown on Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:29 pm

Jippd is exactly right. There's no reason to have an attitude of, "Play my way or I'm taking my ball and going home." I did take time to search through the thread for all discussions about beacons before my most recent comment. I understand your rejection of making the beacon path 2-way (allowing attacks from left to right). I still think that is the simplest solution, but I can understand it doesn't fit your vision for the map. Also, I understand that you're losing access to your graphics tools and can't make graphical changes in the future. Fair enough. That's why my most recent proposal was to balance it out by adjusting the starting neutrals in a couple of the beacons. It's a change that is strictly in the XML and it should still fit your vision of the map.

I think it's a great map and I'm impressed with the work you've put into it already. I just want to have a conversation about what, if any, changes could help make it a better map. Are you honestly of the opinion that you'd rather have a finished map that gets played infrequently because of a perceived imbalance in start locations, as opposed to one that stays in beta a little while longer with minor XML tweaks to turn it into a classic?
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