Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [Quenched]

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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby iancanton on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:57 pm

something i haven't noticed before: gerehu, renwara tais, outer mails and inland saut are effectively 3-region bonuses for purposes of calculating bonus drop probabilities in 1v1 games. if u put 3 neutrals on one region of each of these bonuses and also on one of the viles regions (another 3-region bonus), then the starting regions will be 32 for 1v1, 22 for 2v2, 14 for 3v3 and 11 for 4v4, better than the current 15 for 3v3 and no worse for the others.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 Graphics?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:17 pm

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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby cairnswk on Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:20 pm

iancanton wrote:something i haven't noticed before: gerehu, renwara tais, outer mails and inland saut are effectively 3-region bonuses for purposes of calculating bonus drop probabilities in 1v1 games. if u put 3 neutrals on one region of each of these bonuses and also on on e of the viles regions (another 3-region bonus), then the starting regions will be 32 for 1v1, 22 for 2v2, 14 for 3v3 and 11 for 4v4, better than the current 15 for 3v3 and no worse for the others.

ian. :)

ian, I can understand everything but the viles region. Since they are quite seperate, why would you do this to viles?
and if viles was left out of this new neutral deployment, would it still make a difference to those calcuations you did?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby iancanton on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:45 am

viles is a 3-region bonus and, in 1v1 and 3-player games, has a 7% and 10% chance respectively of all 3 regions dropping to the same player (over 3% to player 1). if viles is left out, then there are 33 starting regions for 1v1 and 3-player games, which is not a good number, with the other types mentioned above being unchanged; the calculation is based on 75 normal non-neutral regions plus 16 covered by the 8 start positions. i have no objection if u make the viles neutral a single-troop neutral, as long as there is a neutral of some sort.

is there a reason why the tokarara neutral is only n2, while all of the others are n3? we ought to be consistent here.

the baruni bonus looks as if it ought to be worth more, instead of less, than napa napa rot because of the extra border and more central location: +5 instead of +3. napa nambis also can do with an extra +1 because of its 4 borders and large number of neighbouring enemy bonuses: +4 instead of +3. good job with the bonuses otherwise!

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby cairnswk on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:57 am

ian, the current neutrals i count are:
2 - solwara
1 - PM pasis
1 - Tokara
1 - Waigani
1 - Bigpela Gavman Distrik
1 - Saraga
1 - Karabosea
1- Gabatu
totals = 9
you want to add 4 more
1 - Waigani Tais
1- Gerehu
1- Et Mail
1- Kila Kila Wan
- 13.
104 - 13 = 91.
If we add
1 - MV Macdhui (shipwreck)
1 - M7
* (making it an obstacle into the mountains from the north for the tribes invading)
* (i really don't want to make any Viles neutrals because they are already fronted by killer neutrals which makes them even harder to get from the sea)
we can get an 89 golden number - good for all except 5 and 7.

iancanton wrote:...

is there a reason why the tokarara neutral is only n2, while all of the others are n3? we ought to be consistent here.

Yes. the salwara and pasis are killers and we thought 2 would have been big enough to overcome on these for attacking the sea routes.
Tokarara was made a 2 as the only token neutral at the intial stage.
I think tokarara should only be n2 as it is +2 with 6 borders.

the baruni bonus looks as if it ought to be worth more, instead of less, than napa napa rot because of the extra border and more central location: +5 instead of +3.
OK, I understand, if M7 is made a neutral, will that still require Baruni to be +5?

napa nambis also can do with an extra +1 because of its 4 borders and large number of neighbouring enemy bonuses: +4 instead of +3.
OK i can agree to that.

good job with the bonuses otherwise!
ian. :)

Thank you too - for the perserverence with these bonuses, they are not easy to strike some potential balance with. ;)
I must also acknowledge Sully for his initial help with the bonuses. :)
I'll await your answer to the above questions before updating the image.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby RedBaron0 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:19 am

Alright cairns, lets hash out these graphics, you're really gonna need to put some more work into this. There is a ton of awful looking stuff here.

The mountains aren't constant with their light source you got lighter sides where it should be dark and dark sides where it should be light. There is a line on some of the tops that should be some sort of ridge?

The tribe markers are a mix of decent to just terrible, Motu is just blurry and the Asaro one looks like a stormtrooper from Star Wars. Maybe its the glow, too bright/too wide/too yellow

You should add more different jungle trees to break up the monotony of the rest, its just the same background tree copied over and over in nice neat straight lines.

The thinner territories borders are too thin, they are pixely and jagged especially noticeable on lighter regions such as Napa Napa.

Why is the river water darker than the ocean?

Some territory names are getting lost, especially on the dark green of the parks.

I don't know if the shadow around the border of the map is necessary, it at least needs to be toned down it really seems bothersome when in contact with the playing surface.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:27 am

RedBaron0 wrote:Alright cairns, lets hash out these graphics,..
Good
you're really gonna need to put some more work into this. There is a ton of awful looking stuff here.

i realise this needs more work, but i didn't think it was that awful :roll: I had already started on changing colours since i am not happy with the colour scheme yet.

The mountains aren't constant with their light source you got lighter sides where it should be dark and dark sides where it should be light.

Oh! the light source is from the ESE.
So with that knowledge please advise where you think the changes should be made.

There is a line on some of the tops that should be some sort of ridge?

Please advise on this also, and how do you know that that area you're looking at should be some sort of ridge?

Before i comment on these below, the map is exported to .jpg not .png so there is going to be some issues with a bit of bluriness.
Also, the minimum line thickness in this maps' software is 1 px. There are no decimals.

The tribe markers are a mix of decent to just terrible...

Some are reasonable .pngs, some others i have to re-draw.

Motu is just blurry

Yes, i plaved this in a bitmap rather than as a vector group...here is the original size...and it is reduced down to map size...fixed next version ;)
Image

... and the Asaro one looks like a stormtrooper from Star Wars. Maybe its the glow, too bright/too wide/too yellow

OK, here is the Asaro natives (your version of storm troopers - perhaps that's where Lucas got the idea from :lol: )
Image
and this is my take on it...(40x120px) and reduced down to fit on the map
Image
..yes there is a yellow glow which i will look at reducing :)
all tribes glow has been reduced from 5px to 2 px.

You should add more different jungle trees to break up the monotony of the rest, its just the same background tree copied over and over in nice neat straight lines.

That is an easy fix, time consuming but easy

The thinner territories borders are too thin, they are pixely and jagged especially noticeable on lighter regions such as Napa Napa.

You've mentioned Napa Napa, but what the others do you think need fixing?
- the inner borders are 1px #333333 soft line 100% edge
- between regions borders are 3 px #333333 soft rounded 50% edge


Why is the river water darker than the ocean?

Is there are rule that says rivers can't be darked than the ocean? I am simply curious :)
Some territory names are getting lost, especially on the dark green of the parks.

Please clarfiy so i know which ones to correct :)

I don't know if the shadow around the border of the map is necessary, it at least needs to be toned down

i'd like to retain it and yes maybe it needs toning down
...it really seems bothersome when in contact with the playing surface.

oh! is that a personal preference? Et Mail and Nain Mail can be moved west to avoid this border.
Thanks for the input, and i look forward to hearing those other areas you think need fixing :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 GFX?

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:00 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Color coded :D
red circles - issues I see with lighting of the mountains you say ESE for the light source, in many cases your mountains that are being lit are facing eNe and should have much of any sunlight on them. I'm assuming the light is emanating from about the spot the Huli tribe is.

The bit of mountains you have between Iwan and Huli I think can just be covered over with trees they're already there and cover most of those mountains anyways.

yellow arrows - the odd line mountain ridges they really just seem too dark and pronounced to me in most cases. If this is just a transfer issue, ok, but that ridge line just looks odd, perhaps changing the color of those lines will help, like a dark green perhaps?

teal circles - borders that seem a little pixelly. I just hate a 1px border cuz I think its those on any kinda straight angle have the appearance of jagged steps, and it especially shows when on top of lighter backgrounds.

lime circles - territory names getting lost in background colors. On the subject of territory names... I've seen you use this particular font quite a few times across your menagerie of maps and think it'd a good idea to try something different.

pinkish circles - just a couple territory borders that are funny to me. They are all blending into the background and could cause a bit of confusion as to where territories begin and end, on the 2 shorter ones, a shift one direction or another to clear this up.

For the color of the ocean/rivers, I just am looking for consistency in impassibles ocean/rivers=water and should be a similar color. I'm not saying they have to be the exact same color, just a bit closer in hue. Yes I know from river to ocean water can range wildly in color, especially river water, BUT on a map water, no matter its form, river/ocean/lake they will be represented by a similar shade of blue generally.

You answered my other questions, so I'll have to live with the stormtrooper I guess. ;)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 GFX?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:02 am

Thanks RB0, i'll look at those sometime in the near future...
on the font issue, i'd like to keep this font, given that the names are in toki pisin, i'd prefer to retain a simple font rather than anything fancy, as i have a big belief in legibility on these maps as part of the overall process that i was taught.
Yes it looks same same to some extent across the range, but clear fonts create fewer problems for players reading them.
Having said that, i will do some exploring to see if anything is suitable as a replacement. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby iancanton on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:08 am

cairnswk wrote:104 - 13 = 91.
If we add
1 - MV Macdhui (shipwreck)
1 - M7
* (making it an obstacle into the mountains from the north for the tribes invading)
* (i really don't want to make any Viles neutrals because they are already fronted by killer neutrals which makes them even harder to get from the sea)
we can get an 89 golden number - good for all except 5 and 7.

91 regions, less 16 regions used by start positions, is 75. none of the viles regions are dead-ends, but are each adjacent to 2 non-viles regions. the fact that an additional killer neutral is also adjacent to each actually increases their connectedness compared with, for example, the existing gabatu and tokarara neutrals. starting one of the viles regions as n1 stops the +4 viles bonus from being dropped, while letting someone occupy that viles region with minimal resistance. i'm not keen on a macdhui neutral, since ailan is already fairly hard to conquer.

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:is there a reason why the tokarara neutral is only n2, while all of the others are n3? we ought to be consistent here.

Yes. the salwara and pasis are killers and we thought 2 would have been big enough to overcome on these for attacking the sea routes.
Tokarara was made a 2 as the only token neutral at the intial stage.
I think tokarara should only be n2 as it is +2 with 6 borders.

i agree with n2 for the killer neutrals. does tokarara have 6 borders? i think it's only 5, so something must be unclear. anyway, the same argument applies even more to boroko and utilities, so why not consistently n2 (except for n1 on one viles region)? after all, they're there only to prevent dropped bonuses.

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:the baruni bonus looks as if it ought to be worth more, instead of less, than napa napa rot because of the extra border and more central location: +5 instead of +3.

OK, I understand, if M7 is made a neutral, will that still require Baruni to be +5?

however u look at it, baruni is more difficult than napa napa rot. i like the way the maunten area restricts access from east and west except at the m1, m5 and m6 points. however, the internal arrangement of maunten is too much of rail pot mosbi. instead of making m7 start neutral, why not merge away two maunten regions (m1 with m2 and m3 with m4) to a total of 5, obviously with a reduced bonus? combined with the viles n1, this gives 88 starting regions, which is also a golden number.

the zone bonus borders can be made thinner without loss of clarity. i initially thought that kanudi gas ples was not adjacent to kanudi because the thick dark green border looks as if its part of the mountain ridge that surrounds much of gas ples.

to preserve more detail of their costumes, does increasing the size of the tribesmen work, perhaps just head and upper body if there isn't enough space? of course, that leaves the question of where their legs have gone...

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 CB Test adde

Postby cairnswk on Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:29 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:104 - 13 = 91.
If we add
1 - MV Macdhui (shipwreck)
1 - M7
* (making it an obstacle into the mountains from the north for the tribes invading)
* (i really don't want to make any Viles neutrals because they are already fronted by killer neutrals which makes them even harder to get from the sea)
we can get an 89 golden number - good for all except 5 and 7.

91 regions, less 16 regions used by start positions, is 75. none of the viles regions are dead-ends, but are each adjacent to 2 non-viles regions. the fact that an additional killer neutral is also adjacent to each actually increases their connectedness compared with, for example, the existing gabatu and tokarara neutrals. starting one of the viles regions as n1 stops the +4 viles bonus from being dropped, while letting someone occupy that viles region with minimal resistance. i'm not keen on a macdhui neutral, since ailan is already fairly hard to conquer.

OK. we'll leave macdhui as is.
cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:is there a reason why the tokarara neutral is only n2, while all of the others are n3? we ought to be consistent here.

Yes. the salwara and pasis are killers and we thought 2 would have been big enough to overcome on these for attacking the sea routes.
Tokarara was made a 2 as the only token neutral at the intial stage.
I think tokarara should only be n2 as it is +2 with 6 borders.

i agree with n2 for the killer neutrals. does tokarara have 6 borders?
i think it's only 5, so something must be unclear. anyway, the same argument applies even more to boroko and utilities, so why not consistently n2 (except for n1 on one viles region)? after all, they're there only to prevent dropped bonuses.

6 borders for tokara, one is with M5
n2s placed across the board. next version.
i've made the Porepoena Viles the n1 :)

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:the baruni bonus looks as if it ought to be worth more, instead of less, than napa napa rot because of the extra border and more central location: +5 instead of +3.

OK, I understand, if M7 is made a neutral, will that still require Baruni to be +5?

however u look at it, baruni is more difficult than napa napa rot. i like the way the maunten area restricts access from east and west except at the m1, m5 and m6 points. however, the internal arrangement of maunten is too much of rail pot mosbi. instead of making m7 start neutral, why not merge away two maunten regions (m1 with m2 and m3 with m4) to a total of 5, obviously with a reduced bonus? combined with the viles n1, this gives 88 starting regions, which is also a golden number.

Done, with Maunten reduced to +4

the zone bonus borders can be made thinner without loss of clarity. i initially thought that kanudi gas ples was not adjacent to kanudi because the thick dark green border looks as if its part of the mountain ridge that surrounds much of gas ples.

OK, i'll reeduced them from 3px to 2 px, and might even change the colour slightly for clarification.

to preserve more detail of their costumes, does increasing the size of the tribesmen work, perhaps just head and upper body if there isn't enough space? of course, that leaves the question of where their legs have gone...
ian. :)

Mmmm. i think they're OK, i wouldn't want to lose their legs. ;)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 GFX?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:21 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:...
teal circles - borders that seem a little pixelly. I just hate a 1px border cuz I think its those on any kinda straight angle have the appearance of jagged steps, and it especially shows when on top of lighter backgrounds.
...

RB0, i take it from this you think that borders should be 2 px ?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 GFX?

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:48 am

Assuming that works for you, then yes. Mainly as long as you can tell the difference between a normal territory border and the bonus borders, you'll be good to go.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [17.2.12] V10/P10 GFX?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:59 am

cairnswk wrote:..yes there is a yellow glow which i will look at reducing :)
all tribes glow has been reduced from 5px to 2 px.

Done!

teal circles - borders that seem a little pixelly. I just hate a 1px border cuz I think its those on any kinda straight angle have the appearance of jagged steps, and it especially shows when on top of lighter backgrounds.

pinkish circles - just a couple territory borders that are funny to me. They are all blending into the background and could cause a bit of confusion as to where territories begin and end, on the 2 shorter ones, a shift one direction or another to clear this up.

RedBaron0 wrote:Assuming that works for you, then yes. Mainly as long as you can tell the difference between a normal territory border and the bonus borders, you'll be good to go.

Borders are been completey re-done and above areas moved.

lime circles - territory names getting lost in background colors. On the subject of territory names... I've seen you use this particular font quite a few times across your menagerie of maps and think it'd a good idea to try something different.

On the issue of the font, i don't think i've used this font before - Kozuka Gothic Pro B (i used it for narrowness rather than Arial Narrow)...i've used Verdana a couple of times, but not this font.
I've tried a couple of "native/tribal" fonts and they simply are ghastly for me reading them, so i guess players will have problems with them, and i would like this map as stated before when using toki pisin language to have clear concise and especially legible names. I will once again continue to search for suitable alternatives, or perhaps the effect needs altering.

For the color of the ocean/rivers, I just am looking for consistency in impassibles ocean/rivers=water and should be a similar color. I'm not saying they have to be the exact same color, just a bit closer in hue. Yes I know from river to ocean water can range wildly in color, especially river water, BUT on a map water, no matter its form, river/ocean/lake they will be represented by a similar shade of blue generally.

I have changed the colour of the river to something close to the ocean colour.

You should add more different jungle trees to break up the monotony of the rest, its just the same background tree copied over and over in nice neat straight lines.

For trees:
1. In front of sea, there are some representations of mangrove trees
2. the trees used originally but not space well, are called shade trees, and palms/cocunuts; the originals have been re-spaced, and some have been narrowed and and heightened.
3. I have added umbralla trees (the ones with the red on top; and some sparesley lime green trees for some contrast, and also some fern trees.

cairnswk wrote:
RedBarron0 wrote: I don't know if the shadow around the border of the map is necessary, it at least needs to be toned down

i'd like to retain it and yes maybe it needs toning down

I have reduced the size of the border shadow from 5 pixels to 3 pixels.

I still have the moutains and natives to attend to.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 Font Choices

Postby cairnswk on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:14 pm

Re the font:
I've played around with woodstick, and other types of this nature, and while they are appropriate, they're too small on the map to show their details and thus are lost.
So from the below are some options...

Which do you think is suitable...or the original on V10

Quoraum Blk BT - original
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Quillscript
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Quillscript - outline enhanced at 1 px.
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Market
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Cezanne
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Romulus
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Last edited by cairnswk on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:05 am

I like Romulus or the original, most for clarity reasons.


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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby RedBaron0 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:07 am

I like Romulus too
Market would be great if it wasn't quite as bold.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:58 am

I rather liked Quillscript myself, though I suppose Romulus would likely be my second choice.

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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:47 am

Romulus is not a good text font, it's a bit too complex and some letters, for example the e:s, look messy at that size...

Quillscript would be ok if it weren't so thin, is there a bold version of that font available?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:14 am

natty dread wrote:Quillscript would be ok if it weren't so thin, is there a bold version of that font available?

I echo this. I think it would be a good font if it can be bolded.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby cairnswk on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:04 pm

natty dread wrote:Romulus is not a good text font, it's a bit too complex and some letters, for example the e:s, look messy at that size...

Quillscript would be ok if it weren't so thin, is there a bold version of that font available?


natty, guys, i couldn't find one. but in Coreldraw you can add an outline to the text and i've done this for 1 px blk.
if anything less than 100% blk is used the text starts to become lost on some of those backgrounds.
...included in the choices previous page. :)
Last edited by cairnswk on Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:41 pm

Yeah looks good to me.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:43 pm

natty dread wrote:Yeah looks good to me.

Yep, the bold version of it looks pretty good I think.


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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby cairnswk on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:35 pm

I also checked out a font by the name of Pigeon Street, kinda looked suitable but...no!
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [8.3.12] P11 - Font Choices

Postby natty dread on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:11 am

cairnswk wrote:I also checked out a font by the name of Pigeon Street, kinda looked suitable but...no!


Yeah, that font's license doesn't allow for commercial use, so no go for that... too bad, it looked nice.
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