Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [Quenched]

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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby nolefan5311 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:35 pm

cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:...
I should start off saying that first turn in most 1v1 games is going to have the advantage, especially on a map this size, but there are several potential fixes to even things out a bit.
We can either significantly lower the amount of starting positions distributed at the drop (which is going to require a ton of positions to be coded),

not really in favour of creating lots of xtra code

decrease the region bonus (1 army per 4 or 5 regions instead of the standard 3), and in doing this, this would also allow us to lower the amount of troops defending the tribe. In 1v1 right now, people are receiving 10 troops for 32 regions in addition to having 4 stacks of 7 men to attack with. If we do it per 4 regions, we will need to fix it so that only 31 regions are dropped, but first turn a person would only drop 7 armies instead of 10. Increasing it to 5 I think would affect larger games too much.

OK, i think i understand that.

We could also code a maximum of two tribes per player for 2 and 3 person games, reducing each players army count by 36 and taking out of play two of those four 7 stacks.

OK, ....

thenobodies80 wrote:...Set a limit to positions given out, with underlying neutrals for those not given, and it's done.

OK.

Can we simply do the minreinforcements...nolefan5311? and in doing so, does this have to be noted on the map anywhere?


Yeah, I will do it tonight. It should be mentioned somewhere on the map...maybe you can shorten the explanation of the killer neutral and stick it somewhere in there?

And do you not want to code in a max of 2 start positions?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:38 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:...
And do you not want to code in a max of 2 start positions?
yes please...if that will limit the extra numbers on 2 & 3 player games.
can you post the xml code in here in thread with explanantion of what it actually does so i can translate that to the map please.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby nolefan5311 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:43 pm

cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:...
And do you not want to code in a max of 2 start positions?
yes please...if that will limit the extra numbers on 2 & 3 player games.
can you post the xml code in here in thread with explanantion of what it actually does so i can translate that to the map please.


Will do. Give me about 7 hours or so.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby LOTRrisk on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:35 pm

You may want to change the bonus for Baruni, as it has the same amount of territories and defense points as Mails, except half the bonus
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby nolefan5311 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:00 pm

cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:...
And do you not want to code in a max of 2 start positions?
yes please...if that will limit the extra numbers on 2 & 3 player games.
can you post the xml code in here in thread with explanantion of what it actually does so i can translate that to the map please.


Code: Select all
<minreinforcement>3</minreinforcement>
<reinforcements>
   <reinforcement>
      <lower>1</lower>
      <upper>102</upper>
      <divisor>4</divisor>
   </reinforcement>
</reinforcements>


What this does is changes the normal +1 bonus for every 3 regions gained to +1 for every 4 regions gained. The minimum is 3, and it does not reach 4 troops until a player possesses 16 territories.

Code: Select all
<positions max="2">
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Highland Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Waigani Ponds</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Asaro Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Nain Mail</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Huli Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Saraga Quarry</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Iwan Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Kila Kila</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Enga Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Gerehu Faiv</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Chimbu Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Atlas Steel</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Jiwiki Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Napa Napa Rot Fo</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory start="12">Motu Tribe</territory>
      <territory start="7">Paga</territory>
   </position>
</positions>


All this does is limit the amount of Tribes distributed to players in 1v1 games, from 4 to 2. It will take 2 regions and 24 armies off the board for each player (though two of the regions bordering the tribes will be placed in the random drop, and will be distributed as regular territories of 3, since these regions are not coded as underlying neutrals).
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby nolefan5311 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:35 pm

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/5/13/3303803/Mosbi10Dec2012.xml

I think there might be an issue that underlying neutrals aren't coded for the regions that border the tribe, but I'm not really sure. I also noticed an error or two that I've fixed (misspelling of a region and a mixup in the coding of a neutral starter). Also, the golden numbers don't apply here since we're dealing with a troop for every 4 regions instead of for every 3 regions, so I'm not really sure how many regions will be dropped. It's late here and I'm getting tired though.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:01 am

LOTRrisk wrote:You may want to change the bonus for Baruni, as it has the same amount of territories and defense points as Mails, except half the bonus

and nolefan5311...what about this?
my calcs say Baruni should be +5, but i don't beleive it was ever fully examined in the discussion.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby iancanton on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:02 pm

cairnswk wrote:my calcs say Baruni should be +5, but i don't beleive it was ever fully examined in the discussion.

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:the baruni bonus looks as if it ought to be worth more, instead of less, than napa napa rot because of the extra border and more central location: +5 instead of +3.

OK, I understand, if M7 is made a neutral, will that still require Baruni to be +5?

however u look at it, baruni is more difficult than napa napa rot. i like the way the maunten area restricts access from east and west except at the m1, m5 and m6 points. however, the internal arrangement of maunten is too much of rail pot mosbi. instead of making m7 start neutral, why not merge away two maunten regions (m1 with m2 and m3 with m4) to a total of 5, obviously with a reduced bonus? combined with the viles n1, this gives 88 starting regions, which is also a golden number.

a major problem at the start seems to be caused by the stacks of 7 in front of each tribe. instead of 12 on each tribe and 7 on the tribe buffer region, how about 12 and 3, so that no attack is advisable from the buffer region on turn 1 unless troops are added? the reinforcement divisor being 4 will also help greatly by reducing the starting deployment from scary to chunky.

both regions of each start position ought to be coded as underlying neutral to avoid potential bonus drops.

do we still have 88 starting regions for large games? if so and if we implement a maximum of 2 start positions per player, then there are 72 random starting regions plus 8 2-region start positions for large games (22 regions per player, deployment of 5 in 4-player games; 14 regions per player, deployment of 3 in 6-player games), 72 regions plus 6 2-region start positions for 3-player games (28 regions per player, deployment of 7) and 72 regions plus 4 2-region start positions for 2-player games (28 regions per player, deployment of 7). this is a bad number for 2-player games because player 1 can reduce his opponent's deployment by gaining just one of his regions, so i recommend a maximum of exactly 3 2-region start positions per player. 3-player is a special case where this doesn't matter so much, since a starting advantage can lead to the other two players ganging up on player 1.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:45 pm

cairnswk wrote:my calcs say Baruni should be +5, but i don't beleive it was ever fully examined in the discussion.

:oops: my error, it was covered, and i have now found that discussion, apologies Ian. :)

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:the baruni bonus looks as if it ought to be worth more, instead of less, than napa napa rot because of the extra border and more central location: +5 instead of +3.

OK, I understand, if M7 is made a neutral, will that still require Baruni to be +5?

however u look at it, baruni is more difficult than napa napa rot. i like the way the maunten area restricts access from east and west except at the m1, m5 and m6 points. however, the internal arrangement of maunten is too much of rail pot mosbi. instead of making m7 start neutral, why not merge away two maunten regions (m1 with m2 and m3 with m4) to a total of 5, obviously with a reduced bonus? combined with the viles n1, this gives 88 starting regions, which is also a golden number.


So going forward, i failed to change the Baruni bonus to +5....nolefan5311, can you adjust that please, and i will attend the gfx..


iancanton wrote:a major problem at the start seems to be caused by the stacks of 7 in front of each tribe.

instead of 12 on each tribe and 7 on the tribe buffer region, how about 12 and 3, so that no attack is advisable from the buffer region on turn 1 unless troops are added?

the reinforcement divisor being 4 will also help greatly by reducing the starting deployment from scary to chunky.


ian, i can cope with 12 and 3 if the divisor is 4, as long as this change is not going to allow any player to wipe someone out too early.

both regions of each start position ought to be coded as underlying neutral to avoid potential bonus drops.

OK, that can be done also, although is it too much! are we going for overkill here?

do we still have 88 starting regions for large games?

as far as i know we have.

if so and if we implement a maximum of 2 start positions per player,

...then there are 72 random starting regions
plus 8 2-region start positions for large games
-->(22 regions per player, deployment of 5 in 4-player games;
Agreed on divisor of 4.

-->14 regions per player, deployment of 3 in 6-player games),
Agreed on divisor of 4.

...72 regions plus 6 2-region start positions for 3-player games (28 regions per player, deployment of 7)
Agreed

...72 regions plus 4 2-region start positions for 2-player games (28 regions per player, deployment of 7).
Agreed

...this is a bad number for 2-player games because player 1 can reduce his opponent's deployment by gaining just one of his regions,
so i recommend a maximum of exactly 3 2-region start positions per player.

3-player is a special case where this doesn't matter so much, since a starting advantage can lead to the other two players ganging up on player 1.

ian. :)

OK, i understand that, sorry I had to break it up to get head around it.


So we have:
1. Divisor of 4
2. max of 3 x 2 region start positions/player
3. reduce the 7 (buffer) in front of tribe to 3....

Can we compromise on 5 buffer in front of tribe... because i am still not convinced that in 2 players games, the first player is going to have enough deployment if he gets a tert adjacent to the 3 buffer to be able to come very close to wiping that buffer out, thus immediately placing the opponent in a defensive position to have to countermand that almost wipeout. :?: :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby iancanton on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:10 pm

cairnswk wrote:
both regions of each start position ought to be coded as underlying neutral to avoid potential bonus drops.

OK, that can be done also, although is it too much! are we going for overkill here?

an underlying n10 and n2 on each tribe and buffer region respectively will be acceptable.

cairnswk wrote:Can we compromise on 5 buffer in front of tribe... because i am still not convinced that in 2 players games, the first player is going to have enough deployment if he gets a tert adjacent to the 3 buffer to be able to come very close to wiping that buffer out, thus immediately placing the opponent in a defensive position to have to countermand that almost wipeout. :?: :)

how about 15 and 3 on each tribe and buffer respectively? the 15 prevents someone from having to defend immediately against a possible wipeout, while the 3 forces all players to deploy or fort consciously to any regions from which they want to attack.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:25 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
both regions of each start position ought to be coded as underlying neutral to avoid potential bonus drops.

OK, that can be done also, although is it too much! are we going for overkill here?

an underlying n10 and n2 on each tribe and buffer region respectively will be acceptable.

i see you changed your mind from 12 to 10.
OK, but this doesn't have to be mentioned in the legend.

cairnswk wrote:Can we compromise on 5 buffer in front of tribe... because i am still not convinced that in 2 players games, the first player is going to have enough deployment if he gets a tert adjacent to the 3 buffer to be able to come very close to wiping that buffer out, thus immediately placing the opponent in a defensive position to have to countermand that almost wipeout. :?: :)

how about 15 and 3 on each tribe and buffer respectively? the 15 prevents someone from having to defend immediately against a possible wipeout, while the 3 forces all players to deploy or fort consciously to any regions from which they want to attack.
ian. :)

the 15 is fine, although i still prefer 12.
the 3 is too low....it might force conscious deployment, but it doesn't stop someone in 1v1 from wiping that buffer out...i'd still like it to be 5 or 6. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby puppydog85 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:31 pm

Sorry if this has been mentioned but wary is misspelled as weary.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:58 pm

puppydog85 wrote:Sorry if this has been mentioned but wary is misspelled as weary.

Thank-you puppydog85, i have got that in the next update. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:16 am

cairns, sure it has been discussed, but after having finished my first game (and won) on this fine map, can I please ask for a slight revision. For the Motu tribe, it took me a long time to find them. :oops: This was because I was looking for a tribesman, and not the boat. Any chance of getting rid of the sail and putting a tribesman into it instead so all the tribes have the same type of symbol?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:42 am

koontz1973 wrote:cairns, sure it has been discussed, but after having finished my first game (and won) on this fine map, can I please ask for a slight revision. For the Motu tribe, it took me a long time to find them. :oops: This was because I was looking for a tribesman, and not the boat. Any chance of getting rid of the sail and putting a tribesman into it instead so all the tribes have the same type of symbol?

What you should have been looking for was something that said "Tribe", and considering this a clearly marked, i have to no to this request.
You simply didn't look hard enough. :)
Besides the Motu Tribe are seafaring peoples.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:17 am

cairnswk wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:cairns, sure it has been discussed, but after having finished my first game (and won) on this fine map, can I please ask for a slight revision. For the Motu tribe, it took me a long time to find them. :oops: This was because I was looking for a tribesman, and not the boat. Any chance of getting rid of the sail and putting a tribesman into it instead so all the tribes have the same type of symbol?

What you should have been looking for was something that said "Tribe", and considering this a clearly marked, i have to no to this request.
You simply didn't look hard enough. :) Besides the Motu Tribe are seafaring peoples.


I agree with you on this one, cairsnwk. It seems to me that the name is well written, readable and visible. Yeah it's a sort of exception and it could be considered "hidden" for the first game you play. But it's "hard" to spot only once...at least this is what i think.
Cairnswk, I think have promised a more thoughtful comment on the starting drop in 1vs1 games some time ago. Sorry for the delay but i had to come in and out from hospital and doctors these days...but now things should be back to normality and I'm trying to look at all the things I had to look at asap. So, I have not forgotten to give you a reply, just i had a few messy days.

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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby ManBungalow on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:46 pm

Not a map for 1vs1, but otherwise cool!
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:11 am

cairnswk wrote:What you should have been looking for was something that said "Tribe", and considering this a clearly marked, i have to no to this request.
You simply didn't look hard enough. :) Besides the Motu Tribe are seafaring peoples.


Fine, it was just hard for me to see them in the first game. But now that I know where it is I will find them easier.
ManBungalow wrote:Not a map for 1vs1, but otherwise cool!

As an 8 player esc game, this map rocks.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby iancanton on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:57 am

koontz1973 wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:Not a map for 1vs1, but otherwise cool!

As an 8 player esc game, this map rocks.

let's do everything possible to keep the latter, while making 1v1 more playable than it currently is.

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Can we compromise on 5 buffer in front of tribe... because i am still not convinced that in 2 players games, the first player is going to have enough deployment if he gets a tert adjacent to the 3 buffer to be able to come very close to wiping that buffer out, thus immediately placing the opponent in a defensive position to have to countermand that almost wipeout. :?: :)

how about 15 and 3 on each tribe and buffer respectively? the 15 prevents someone from having to defend immediately against a possible wipeout, while the 3 forces all players to deploy or fort consciously to any regions from which they want to attack.
ian. :)

the 15 is fine, although i still prefer 12.
the 3 is too low....it might force conscious deployment, but it doesn't stop someone in 1v1 from wiping that buffer out...i'd still like it to be 5 or 6. :)

if u wipe out someone's buffer, then u'd better ensure that u pummel his 15-stack into something insignificant, otherwise that 15-stack, increased by 7 additional troops from enemy deployment, is going to do some damage to u before ur next turn. given the likelihood of failing to reduce the 15-stack to less than a 10 stack, ur opponent will be able to attack with 16 troops or more. i'd certainly want my opponent to conquer my buffer region on turn 1 if it meant a 16-troop attack for me.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:03 am

iancanton wrote:...
cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Can we compromise on 5 buffer in front of tribe... because i am still not convinced that in 2 players games, the first player is going to have enough deployment if he gets a tert adjacent to the 3 buffer to be able to come very close to wiping that buffer out, thus immediately placing the opponent in a defensive position to have to countermand that almost wipeout. :?: :)

how about 15 and 3 on each tribe and buffer respectively? the 15 prevents someone from having to defend immediately against a possible wipeout, while the 3 forces all players to deploy or fort consciously to any regions from which they want to attack.
ian. :)

the 15 is fine, although i still prefer 12.
the 3 is too low....it might force conscious deployment, but it doesn't stop someone in 1v1 from wiping that buffer out...i'd still like it to be 5 or 6. :)

if u wipe out someone's buffer, then u'd better ensure that u pummel his 15-stack into something insignificant, otherwise that 15-stack, increased by 7 additional troops from enemy deployment, is going to do some damage to u before ur next turn. given the likelihood of failing to reduce the 15-stack to less than a 10 stack, ur opponent will be able to attack with 16 troops or more. i'd certainly want my opponent to conquer my buffer region on turn 1 if it meant a 16-troop attack for me.

ian. :)

OK i can see what you're trying to achieve.
15 on the tribe, and i'll give 4 on the buffer. :)
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:47 am

iancanton wrote:so i recommend a maximum of exactly 3 2-region start positions per player


I'm fine with the above

cairnswk wrote:1. Divisor of 4


I'm fine also with this. Must be said that players prefer to have it written somewhere on the map. Personally I hope a day we will be able to not have to write all these details on the map, but for now a note it is preferable. The only place i can see right now is where you have the killer neutral explanation. I think it's really long and that it can be shortened a bit to make room for the uncommon divisor. If players wonder what a KN is, then the player can go to read instructions.

cairnswk wrote: iancanton wrote:

cairnswk wrote:

both regions of each start position ought to be coded as underlying neutral to avoid potential bonus drops.


OK, that can be done also, although is it too much! are we going for overkill here?


an underlying n10 and n2 on each tribe and buffer region respectively will be acceptable.


i see you changed your mind from 12 to 10.
OK, but this doesn't have to be mentioned in the legend.


10 and 2 look good also to me. And yes you don't have to note it somewhere. When the underlying neutrals come into action, they are visible from the very start so a note is 100% useless.

cairnswk wrote:15 on the tribe, and i'll give 4 on the buffer.

If I've understood correctly what you guys are trying to achieve, I think that 15 and 4 are good numbers even if also 12 and 4 work for me....personally I like the current 12 troops on tribes, it's the 7 on the buffer that I don't like.

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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:13 pm

I've just started a game 1v1...where my opponent got regions adjacent to my buffer...game start he gets 10 troops same as me.
With 12 and 7 as it is now, if he has good dice, he could roll my 7 buffer with his 10, exposing one of my tribes.

If we are to make these changes to tribe and buffer numbers, i also recommend that all regions surrounding tribe and buffers be made neutral.
What say ye?
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:00 am

Hasn't been that big of an issue so far in the three games I've played. One double, a 8 player single, and a quads.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby greenoaks on Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:14 am

are the starting positions going to be reduced for 1v1?

as it is now there is no strategy, just cross your fingers and hope to go first.
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Re: Classic Cities :Pot Mosbi [18.11.12] BETA Files

Postby iancanton on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:25 pm

cairnswk wrote:I've just started a game 1v1...where my opponent got regions adjacent to my buffer...game start he gets 10 troops same as me.
With 12 and 7 as it is now, if he has good dice, he could roll my 7 buffer with his 10, exposing one of my tribes.

in 1v1 (and also in trips or quads), i'd welcome it if my opponent exposed one of my tribes, thereby allowing me to use my 12-stack (or 15-stack) to attack him. 6-12 therefore doesn't defend as well as 3-15 (or 4-14, for that matter).

ian. :)
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