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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:55 pm

Yeah I like the new look. Keep it up!

Also thought of replacing the cow pat with a bucket, but because of where it was it just looked like a bucket to collect poo.

I think that's a good idea. anything to keep the image of poo of the map. I'm not fond of that.

Also you should put some blood splatter on the wall or poster.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:15 am

I thought you were developing something that is not "just a cow" map, like a map about a butcher shop or something, but all I see is that same map of a cow that you've had since the beginning. Nothing's changed, even the shit and flies are still there, the gameplay is exactly the same. All you've done is added a wall to the image.

If you want to make this into a proper map, you're going to need to do more. If the map's theme is supposed to be a butcher shop, then the gameplay AND graphics both need to support that theme. Currently, it looks again like the butcher shop theme is just an excuse for you to stick to the same map you've had and not change anything.

What I'm saying is that the map lacks thematic consistency. You say it's about a butcher shop, but NOTHING on this map says butcher shop to me. Yeah, it's a cow picture on a wall, but it might as well be a page of a newspaper on the wall of a public toilet... For instance, why would the flies, the shit, or the piece of grass even be there is the map was about a butcher shop? It just doesn't add up.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:18 am

As a map with GP, it is coming along but things need to change now that it is a poster. No poster would have flies on it in a food shop so they need to go. Same for the cow pat and grass. These two with there high neutrals will never get taken. The fly swarm, although it is a nice idea would need a lot of symbols to denote what it can attack (look at flapcakes trench map). Take all threee of these out. Not needed in any way for GP and none fit the poster you have now. Like you did for the island, bring in the back legs. If you have a sale poster in the middle instead of the grass, you can use that as the territ that allows the legs to attack each other. If you remove the flies and shit, make Tri tip and tenderloin a normal 1 bonus with 3 starting neutrals on them.

Remove that dark paper and make it white. Who would buy from a dirty butcher.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:23 am

koontz1973 wrote:No poster would have flies on it in a food shop so they need to go. Same for the cow pat and grass.


And it's not just enough removing those elements. Even if you remove the shit and flies and grass, you still only have an image of cow, on a piece of paper, on a wall. The butcher element is still missing.

You need to figure out something that clues the player in on the idea that this is supposed to be a butcher shop. Be it graphics or gameplay, but you need to have something. Simply adding a paper and a wall and asking the players to somehow guess that the wall belongs to a butcher shop is simply stretching it.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:36 am

You need to figure out something that clues the player in on the idea that this is supposed to be a butcher shop. Be it graphics or gameplay, but you need to have something. Simply adding a paper and a wall and asking the players to somehow guess that the wall belongs to a butcher shop is simply stretching it.

Agreed, but Dana said he wanted to get the GP sorted. Any nobodies warned players about making non map related posts. So if and when dana gets the GP stamp, we can all butcher his graphics then. There is no point right now, trying to do this apart from getting rid of he elements that do not work like the cow pat, flies and grass.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:25 am

As others have said before me, remove the flies, grass and cow pat. They might be good for gameplay but try to justify how any of that would be on a butchers wall. It's impossible! I would like to see more of the wall and the bonuses made in a way that somehow fits a butchers picture of a cow. Maybe a minimap would be more fitting?
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:38 am

Gillipig wrote:As others have said before me, remove the flies, grass and cow pat. They might be good for gameplay but try to justify how any of that would be on a butchers wall. It's impossible! I would like to see more of the wall and the bonuses made in a way that somehow fits a butchers picture of a cow. Maybe a minimap would be more fitting?

Instead of doing a mini map, try for a chalk board and instead of having bonuses, how about prices. So it would be
£6 Sirloin
£5 Rump
and so on.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:48 am

koontz1973 wrote:Agreed, but Dana said he wanted to get the GP sorted. Any nobodies warned players about making non map related posts. So if and when dana gets the GP stamp, we can all butcher his graphics then. There is no point right now, trying to do this apart from getting rid of he elements that do not work like the cow pat, flies and grass.


Um, this is map related. And besides, mapmaking is not compartmentalized. Even if a mapmaker is working on gameplay and hasn't received the GP stamp it does not mean that no one can give feedback for things other than gameplay. If there are problems with the underlying concept, or the execution of said concept, then it needs to be sorted before the gameplay is fixed in place, because after that it can't be helped.

So there is very much point in doing this right now. The map does not work as it is now. There's no theme, or the theme that is supposedly being attempted for is not showing on the map. The problem is that the mapmaker is just trying to use the theme as an excuse to do that same old "just a cow map" and do minimal or no changes to it at all. But you can't just artificially plaster a theme on top of a map. It just doesn't work, never has.

Therefore, this whole map needs to be redesigned. The map needs to be designed around that butcher theme, in such a way that the graphics and gameplay both support the theme. Not just add/remove some stuff, or do some minor cosmetic changes... if your car tire is full of holes you don't keep patching it every 2 kilometers, you just get a new tire.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:16 am

natty, I am agreeing with you but we both have completely different styles of how we express ourselves. The actual image of the cow is fine, as it is what it is, but it is everything else that fails. There is no point saying to scrap this completely because if he draws a new one from scratch, we may just shread it for the GP side of things. We might as well use this image to get the GP sorted and then work on the graphics side of things. But how does the same message over and over again help dana?
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Flapcake on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:18 am

natty dread wrote:if your car tire is full of holes you don't keep patching it every 2 kilometers, you just get a new tire.


Or just run on it to the tire fall of and then continue on the rim :shock:
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:53 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:As others have said before me, remove the flies, grass and cow pat. They might be good for gameplay but try to justify how any of that would be on a butchers wall. It's impossible! I would like to see more of the wall and the bonuses made in a way that somehow fits a butchers picture of a cow. Maybe a minimap would be more fitting?

Instead of doing a mini map, try for a chalk board and instead of having bonuses, how about prices. So it would be
£6 Sirloin
£5 Rump
and so on.

YES!
Look at that suggestion Dana! It will integrate the bonuses nicely to the butcher theme!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:01 am

I agree with Gillipig (*vomits a little*), koontz's idea is great! :)

-Sully

P.S. Love you, Gillipig :P ;)
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:49 am

I love you too :-({|= :P
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:39 pm

Gillipig wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:As others have said before me, remove the flies, grass and cow pat. They might be good for gameplay but try to justify how any of that would be on a butchers wall. It's impossible! I would like to see more of the wall and the bonuses made in a way that somehow fits a butchers picture of a cow. Maybe a minimap would be more fitting?

Instead of doing a mini map, try for a chalk board and instead of having bonuses, how about prices. So it would be
£6 Sirloin
£5 Rump
and so on.

YES!
Look at that suggestion Dana! It will integrate the bonuses nicely to the butcher theme!

Agreed I like this idea too. It pulls in the butcher theme way more. Also:

No poster would have flies on it in a food shop so they need to go. Same for the cow pat and grass. These two with there high neutrals will never get taken. The fly swarm, although it is a nice idea would need a lot of symbols to denote what it can attack (look at flapcakes trench map). Take all threee of these out.

I really don't think these territories are funny or necessary and they don't fit the theme.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby DiM on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:41 pm

since the standards have already been thrown down the toilet i'd say flush them and finish the job. quench this now.


PS: the back wall makes all the difference. it all clicks into place now. it's brilliant. :roll:
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:46 pm

I disagree, if we're going to have to get a map about a butcher shop, then at least make it as good as it can be and develop the theme properly. This current map is not that, it's just the same old burger with new gravy.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:05 pm

natty dread wrote:I disagree, if we're going to have to get a map about a butcher shop, then at least make it as good as it can be and develop the theme properly. This current map is not that, it's just the same old burger with new gravy.

Yeah I think he was being sarcastic.

Maybe I'm just some dumb simpleton from the suburbs but I'm not seeing how the gameplay doesn't fit the theme. It's a butcher shop and the poster is of beef cuts. Done. This isn't a complicated concept I don't see why we have to make it one.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:16 pm

Well as graphics are the order of the day, you have my GP suggestions, here are some for graphics to try and get the next version looking more as it should.

Tiled wall - the tiles are to big, make the 25-50 smaller. This will give the poster a sense of size.
Paper background - bin this completely, you will never get this to work. It needs to be crisp with a sense of cleanliness.
Give the poster a nice frame - something in wood or metal but it needs to be clean and crisp.
Title - move to the middle (where the flies are) and give it a better font. Try this one. http://www.dafont.com/american-dream.font?fpp=50
Remove version 11 and what not. Not needed at all on the map.
Bonuses - make into a chalk board with prices. This will really help.
Sig - move to the bottom right of the poster itself and onto the tiles.
Little pieces of paper - when have you ever seen this in a butchers shop. All need to go and any relevant info goes onto the chalk board.
Bonus regions - have a look at splitting these apart. You have the room. Then you can put a meat texture over the whole thing or even a split up photo of a real cow. And lose the awful colours.
Army circles, unless you really need them, lose them.
Thats enough for now.

Game play side of things incase you missed them.
Bring in the other two legs like you did for the island map.
Lose flies, cow pat, grass.
Replace the grass with some scales and a normal 2 neutral attacked the same way as it is now.
Make the last two auto deploys normal bonuses with the 3 neutral on.
Remove all attack routes like tongue to grass.
Your fat barriers look OK but not too sure on the bonus numbers but they do look way off.

I know it is a lot to get your head around but it might be better to start from scratch as right now, the only thing that might be worth keeping is the cow itself.

These are bog standard images from the web but should give you an idea of how to make the poster itself look.
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or you can go artistic if you feel adventurous.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:17 pm

The Bison King wrote:
natty dread wrote:I disagree, if we're going to have to get a map about a butcher shop, then at least make it as good as it can be and develop the theme properly. This current map is not that, it's just the same old burger with new gravy.

Yeah I think he was being sarcastic.

Maybe I'm just some dumb simpleton from the suburbs but I'm not seeing how the gameplay doesn't fit the theme. It's a butcher shop and the poster is of beef cuts. Done. This isn't a complicated concept I don't see why we have to make it one.


Because that poster could just as well be on any wall. And there's things like flies and shit and grass - what do they have to do with butcher shops?

Frankly the current map image reminds me more of a page torn from a humour magazine and plastered on a toilet wall. There's nothing that says "butcher shop" on the map, it's just the same old cow map with some cosmetic upgrades.

The gameplay and graphics need to be consistent with the theme and support it. This is not the case here: where's there anything about butchery on this map? How does the gameplay reflect the profession of butchery? Maybe there could be some gameplay elements that would reward the player for "cutting" parts of the cow - I'm not sure how this would be implemented exactly, but that should be for the mapmaker to figure out. There could be territories like butcher knives here, that assault certain points of the cow. There could be a more elements of the butcher shop here - customers, the butcher himself, other meat products, the cash machine - stuff like that, to really bring the theme of a "butcher shop" together.

Because right now, the map is not of a butcher shop, it's just a cow. And as I recall, that's what the foundry foreman himself said was the problem with the map in the first place. Lackattack gave permission to create a map of a butcher shop, with the assistance and approval of the CA:s. That doesn't mean that lackattack's permission should be a free pass to ignore all design guidelines of the foundry, all ideals of thematic consistency. Those should still be followed. So if lack wants a map with a butcher shop theme, then the map should really be about a butcher shop, not just a random drawing of a cow on some random wall.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:40 pm

And there's things like flies and shit and grass - what do they have to do with butcher shops?

I agree that these territories should go, and be replaced with something like:

There could be territories like butcher knives here, that assault certain points of the cow.


These idea's however:
There could be a more elements of the butcher shop here - customers, the butcher himself, other meat products, the cash machine

I think are awful, and the same effect could easily be achieved by:

Instead of doing a mini map, try for a chalk board and instead of having bonuses, how about prices. So it would be
£6 Sirloin
£5 Rump
and so on.

Which I think is a fantastic idea!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:59 pm

The Bison King wrote:I think are awful


Why?
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:08 pm

natty dread wrote:
The Bison King wrote:I think are awful


Why?

How could you possibly get a cashier and customers into this map? It's not about the butcher shop, it's about the image of a cow in his shop!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:12 pm

Gillipig wrote:It's not about the butcher shop, it's about the image of a cow in his shop!


But without the butcher shop, the image of cow might as well be anywhere. Without the butcher shop theme, the map will again be just a cow, and I think it was made very clear before that "just a cow" is not going to pass.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:17 pm

natty dread wrote:
The Bison King wrote:I think are awful


Why?

Because It just sounds like taking the concept and running wild with it, into an area that no one really asked for. This map is about the cow. The butcher shop elements should support that, not the other way around.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:40 pm

natty dread wrote:
Gillipig wrote:It's not about the butcher shop, it's about the image of a cow in his shop!


But without the butcher shop, the image of cow might as well be anywhere. Without the butcher shop theme, the map will again be just a cow, and I think it was made very clear before that "just a cow" is not going to pass.

Plenty of suggestions have been made that would make this map enough butcher themed if implemented. Bringing in cashier and customers are just not a good idea!
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