Czecho Slovak Fragmentation - new xml and towns bonus

Maps that may be nearing the end of production. Finalize maps here, while testing.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Jul 31

Postby Oneyed on Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:38 am

isaiah40 wrote:Nope, the title is still too hard to read. Take one of the fonts you have on the playable area of the map, and use it for the title.


the font is the same as on map.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Jul 31

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:44 am

Do you still have the shadow on the title?? If so remove it. Have the font as a regular font, no shadow, no bold no nothing.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Jul 31

Postby Oneyed on Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:55 am

isaiah40 wrote:Do you still have the shadow on the title?? If so remove it. Have the font as a regular font, no shadow, no bold no nothing.


yes. this is regular font. and there is no shadow. only stroke.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Jul 31

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:13 am

Oneyed wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:Do you still have the shadow on the title?? If so remove it. Have the font as a regular font, no shadow, no bold no nothing.


yes. this is regular font. and there is no shadow. only stroke.

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Remove the stroke.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Jul 31

Postby Oneyed on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:35 am

stroke is removed. I did font bold and twice double layer of title.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Jul 31

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:38 am

Much, much better! =D>
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Jul 31

Postby Oneyed on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:59 am

isaiah40 wrote:Much, much better! =D>


thanks. and thanks for help :)

last updated versions of big and small maps:

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, big and small maps, Aug 01

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:24 am

Okay, I believe this is almost there! What we need for you to do now is:
1 - Post your color blind test in the first post,
2 - Post both versions with the 888's on them (notice 888 not 88)
3 - A version with starting neutrals

If I forgot anything, I'll let you know.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, numbers, colourblind, Aug 01

Postby Oneyed on Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:01 pm

colourblinds
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big and small maps with numbers

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big map with neutrals. these three regions will be in every game neutrals. the number of neutral troops is question. 3 in Brno, 5 in capitals?

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, numbers, colourblind, Aug 01

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:34 pm

Noticed that your 888s are out of alignment. They centre between the first two numbers (or the colour code and first number). Not really going to make much of a difference but make sure when you do the xml, you centre the numbers inside the boxes.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, numbers, colourblind, Aug 01

Postby Oneyed on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:49 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Noticed that your 888s are out of alignment. They centre between the first two numbers (or the colour code and first number). Not really going to make much of a difference but make sure when you do the xml, you centre the numbers inside the boxes.


will edit this. thanks.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, numbers, colourblind, Aug 01

Postby iancanton on Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:53 pm

Oneyed wrote:the number of neutral troops is question. 3 in Brno, 5 in capitals?

i think n1 or n2 for brno, n4 for capitals. brno is now not so important because there is more than one railway. with n3, there will be little reason for anyone to conquer brno.

the disconnected railway network looks really strange. let praha connect to usti n labem?

please list the neutrals and start positions in the first post of this thread.

ian. :)
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, numbers, colourblind, Aug 01

Postby Oneyed on Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:03 am

iancanton wrote:i think n1 or n2 for brno, n4 for capitals. brno is now not so important because there is more than one railway. with n3, there will be little reason for anyone to conquer brno.


I agreed with Brno, but I am not sure with n4 for capitals. in 4 players game each player will start with 8 regions and here is big chance that he will hold 3 towns in CR or in SR. andif the first player in the first round take capital (6 : 4) he wiould has big advantage...
iancanton wrote:the disconnected railway network looks really strange. let praha connect to usti n labem?


then Usti n/Labem will be the fifth region which can attack Praha.
iancanton wrote:please list the neutrals and start positions in the first post of this thread.


Praha, Bratislava, Brno will be in each game neutral. all other regions will be randomly deployment.
it the 4 players games will each player starts with 8 regions. but in 3 players games t will be 10 for each (and two more neutrals) and in 1 v 1 games 16 regions for each player. I think 10 and 16 are too much regions for start. so how this solve?

thanks ian.

the new positions of army numbers.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, conditional border, Aug 07

Postby Oneyed on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:10 pm

I did version with conditional border. this solve problem with starting positions which could directly attack capitals and all regions couldbe codded as random deployment.
could conditional border works on this small map?


version with conditional border
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, conditional border, Aug 07

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:16 pm

It works for any size map, but I do not think it adds anything to this map. Everyone is likely to ignore the capitals in small games anyway and in the larger ones, they will be hard to hold till further in the game and players have the kraj needed for it. Seems like this one has it, just to have it, if you know what I mean. But on another note, have a think about putting it into the drafting room map.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, conditional border, Aug 08

Postby Oneyed on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:23 am

koontz1973 wrote: Everyone is likely to ignore the capitals in small games anyway and in the larger ones, they will be hard to hold till further in the game and players have the kraj needed for it.


sounds logic. ok, this is another version of conditional border. this looks better, I think. 4 town will be not so hard to hold and if player could has bonus for towns he needs capital.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, conditional border, Aug 08

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:00 am

Looked in the first post but could not see it, the amount of starting positions for all games, so this is just an assumption on the amount of starting territs you have (34).

    2/3 player games - 10 territs each
    4 player games - 7 territs each
    5 player games - 6 territs each
As you can see, with this amount of starting territs, the condition is already held (or a good chance of it) by one or all players. This sort of negates it as it is. And considering with the size of map, this is going to be the sort of games most played on it, why have it.

    6 player games - 5 territs each
    7 player games - 4 territs each
    8 payer games - 3 territs each

Here is where it would work best as the chance of anyone getting 4 territs in SR or CR are very small. But again, I refer to my previous post about the larger games on this map...
and in the larger ones, they will be hard to hold till further in the game and players have the kraj needed for it.


Ask yourself this question - How does this benefit the map? Honestly, from my point of view as a player and not the map maker, it does not add anything to it. It is wasted space for small games and ignored in the large.

But if you do keep it in, the wording needs to be changed as right now, it implies that I can attack any capital from any territ as long as it is on the same side.

Add this to Hellenic wars though would add another level of GP to an already good map.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, conditional border, Aug 08

Postby Oneyed on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:06 am

koontz1973 wrote:Looked in the first post but could not see it, the amount of starting positions for all games, so this is just an assumption on the amount of starting territs you have (34).


now they are in :) . there are 35 territories.
koontz1973 wrote:
    2/3 player games - 10 territs each
    4 player games - 7 territs each
    5 player games - 6 territs each
As you can see, with this amount of starting territs, the condition is already held (or a good chance of it) by one or all players. This sort of negates it as it is. And considering with the size of map, this is going to be the sort of games most played on it, why have it.


the conditional border is out. and I also change bonus for towns from +1 for 3 to +1 for 4.
koontz1973 wrote:Add this to Hellenic wars though would add another level of GP to an already good map.


not bad idea ;)

thanks koontz.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, list of starting positions, Aug 0

Postby Oneyed on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:06 am

big map
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small map
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list of neutrals and starting positions:

there are 35 territories. 2 capitals (Praha and Bratislava) will start allways as neutral. and Brno will also start allways as neutral.

there will be 8 starting positions (territories which could directly attack capitals). I think they could work as in the Third Crusade map - so some of them will start as neutral if number of players will be less as 8.

these territories are:
StČK (Středočeský kraj)
Beroun
Kladno
Tábor
ZSK (Západoslovenský kraj)
Komárno
Trenčín
Nitra

the rest of territories will be randomly deployment.

8 players game:
4 territories for each player (include 1 starting position for each), 3 neutrals (Praha, Bratislava, Brno).
7 playes game:
4 territories for each player (include 1 starting position for each), 7 neutrals (Praha, Bratislava, Brno, 1 starting position (StČK°) and 3 random).
6 playes game:
5 territories for each player (include 1 starting position for each), 5 neutrals (Praha, Bratislava, Brno, 2 starting positions (StČK, ZSK°)).
5 playes game:
5 territories for each player (include 1 starting position for each), 10 neutrals (Praha, Bratislava, Brno, 3 starting positions (StČK, ZSK, 1 random°) and 4 random).
4 playes game:
8 territories for each player (include 2 starting positions for each), 3 neutrals (Praha, Bratislava, Brno).
3 playes game:
9 territories for each player (include 2 starting positions for each), 8 neutrals (Praha, Bratislava, Brno, 2 starting positions (StČK, ZSK°) and 3 random).
2 playes game:
10 territories for each player (include 3 starting position for each), 15 neutrals (Praha, Bratislava, Brno, 2 starting positions (StČK, ZSK°) and 10 random).

° if it is possible to code exactly which starting position will start as neutral if number of players is less as 8.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, list of starting positions, Aug 0

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:35 pm

Do you really want those 8 regions to be starting positions in every game? Not sure I understand the logic behind it, takes out the randomness of the deployment and in fog games it "makes things easier", so to speak. With 32 starting territories, deployment will looks like this for each player game:

2 - 10 per player with 12 neutral
3 - 10 per player with 2 neutral
4 - 8 per player with 0 deployed neutrals (other than the 3 starting positions)
5 - 6 per player with 2 neutrals
6 - 5 per player with 2 neutrals
7 - 4 per player with 4 neutrals
8 - 4 per player with 0 neutrals

I'm not sure where you got the 16 deployed in 2 player games...2 and 3 player games will always be the same.

Personally, I would avoid the starting positions. I don't think it makes anything more fair nor do I think it adds anything to the GP. Also, I would follow ian's suggestions and have Brno as n2 or n3 and the two capitals as n4.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, list of starting positions, Aug 0

Postby Oneyed on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:56 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:Do you really want those 8 regions to be starting positions in every game? Not sure I understand the logic behind it, takes out the randomness of the deployment and in fog games it "makes things easier", so to speak.


why to have starting positions? these can directly attack capitals. it is very possible that in 2, 3, 4 players games player XY will hold 4 towns in the same republic, so if these 8 regions will be random deployment it is also possible that player XY will hold 2 of these regions. so player XY can in his first turn take capital and hold bonus for towns...
nolefan5311 wrote:I'm not sure where you got the 16 deployed in 2 player games...2 and 3 player games will always be the same.


there are 10 for each player in 2 players game...
nolefan5311 wrote:Personally, I would avoid the starting positions. I don't think it makes anything more fair nor do I think it adds anything to the GP. Also, I would follow ian's suggestions and have Brno as n2 or n3 and the two capitals as n4.


I agreed with Brno. the number of neutrals in capitals depends on starting positions. if they will not be there I recomended to have n5 for capitals. if starting positions will be in n4 for capitals would be fine.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, list of starting positions, Aug 0

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:46 am

Oneyed, some final touch ups from me.

All around the board, the lines you have are going over the colours. but the colours are showing through in places and in others you have two lines joining and again making a darker colour. This is very distracting as now that I see it, it is all I see. Can we get that cleared up?
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You are missing colours all around the board where the kraj touch each other. This needs to be tidied up as well.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, list of starting positions, Aug 0

Postby nolefan5311 on Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:42 am

Oneyed wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:Do you really want those 8 regions to be starting positions in every game? Not sure I understand the logic behind it, takes out the randomness of the deployment and in fog games it "makes things easier", so to speak.


why to have starting positions? these can directly attack capitals. it is very possible that in 2, 3, 4 players games player XY will hold 4 towns in the same republic, so if these 8 regions will be random deployment it is also possible that player XY will hold 2 of these regions. so player XY can in his first turn take capital and hold bonus for towns...


There is no such thing as a perfect drop, no matter how you change things up. Even in classic a player drops 3 of the 4 regions in Oceania or SA. Sometimes they drop the whole bonus. It happens. If someone drops 4 towns in one republic, their opponent is likely to hold 4 towns in the other republic, which makes it a wash. Just thinking out loud here, but the map is fine how you have it.

Oneyed wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I'm not sure where you got the 16 deployed in 2 player games...2 and 3 player games will always be the same.


there are 10 for each player in 2 players game...


Yes, there are, I wasn't debating that. In a previous post though you mentioned the 16 number, which I don't know how you arrived at.

Oneyed wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:Personally, I would avoid the starting positions. I don't think it makes anything more fair nor do I think it adds anything to the GP. Also, I would follow ian's suggestions and have Brno as n2 or n3 and the two capitals as n4.


I agreed with Brno. the number of neutrals in capitals depends on starting positions. if they will not be there I recomended to have n5 for capitals. if starting positions will be in n4 for capitals would be fine.

Oneyed


This is for you to determine (whether or not you want starting positions at all), but 5 on the capitals, even without the starting positions, is going to discourage people taking them anyway. With 10 territories to start and only a 3 drop, it's going to take a couple of turns to even begin thinking about taking even a 4. A 5 is not likely to be touched at all. Since they're the capitals I'd figure you'd want them in play. So 4 is probably your best bet.

All of this stuff was looked at prior to the GP stamp being issued so I don't think you have anything to worry about.
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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, list of starting positions, Aug 0

Postby Oneyed on Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:20 am

koontz1973 wrote:Oneyed, some final touch ups from me.

All around the board, the lines you have are going over the colours. but the colours are showing through in places and in others you have two lines joining and again making a darker colour. This is very distracting as now that I see it, it is all I see. Can we get that cleared up?

You are missing colours all around the board where the kraj touch each other. This needs to be tidied up as well.


I know about both things. I did them purposedly to have this look. so if this is graphic problem I will edit this.

nolefan5311 wrote:There is no such thing as a perfect drop, no matter how you change things up.


...but why not to be so close to perfection as is possible? :)
nolefan5311 wrote:Sometimes they drop the whole bonus. It happens. If someone drops 4 towns in one republic, their opponent is likely to hold 4 towns in the other republic, which makes it a wash. Just thinking out loud here, but the map is fine how you have it.


the starting positions will helps to have start of game more balanced, so much as is possible. I do not worry about holding any 4 towns in the same republic, I worry about that one player will start with 2 or more regions which could directly attack capital. this will starting positions solve.
nolefan5311 wrote:This is for you to determine (whether or not you want starting positions at all), but 5 on the capitals, even without the starting positions, is going to discourage people taking them anyway. With 10 territories to start and only a 3 drop, it's going to take a couple of turns to even begin thinking about taking even a 4. A 5 is not likely to be touched at all. Since they're the capitals I'd figure you'd want them in play. So 4 is probably your best bet.


this is on you guys. I am fine also with n4 for capitals.
nolefan5311 wrote:All of this stuff was looked at prior to the GP stamp being issued so I don't think you have anything to worry about.


I think gameplay is finished. just starting positions are question now.

thanks for help and interest, guys.

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Re: Fragmentation of CSFR, list of starting positions, Aug 0

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:41 am

Oneyed, you seem to want some starting positions. Right now, you have nine territs that can directly attack either of the two capitals. 4 for Brat and 4 for Pra. Lets see if this can be done to make the game any better. Remember, that is what this is about, making the gaming experience better for the players.

I think you are right, n4 for the capitals is high enough to discourage most players going after them in early rounds.

I have not run the odds for any game size, but to me, any percentage of games in which a player could get either all of the 5 or 4 respectively are so small, it may only happen once in ten years. So will starting positions make this game better? Right now, the drop as it is, random, I am only going to get 10 in a 2 player game. Thats 10 for me, 10 for you, and 10 neutrals. The chance of either of us getting a drop good enough to be able to clear out an area in the first round to be able to go for the capitals is remote. It becomes even harder in larger games.

But why go for a capital in the first place. It is a 4 neutral, one more than the others so it is going to be ignored by me as why take a capital when I can attack one of yours. This is going to be the reaction of most players.

The long and the short of it is this, positions, will do nothing for the small or large games at all. It will be a detriment to fog games as I know where you are. It will destroy the large games completely as every player will get one of there 3 near a capital. Team games will be destroyed as in doubles, my team can hit yours and most likely knock you out by the end of round 2.

Let the drop be the drop and sod the positions. It will add nothing to this map at all. It is the same as the conditional border, something to think about but not always wise to add. Hope this makes sense as I had dinner half way through posting this. :D
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