Magyarország [Quenched]

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:00 am

The title stays as is. The kingdom no longer exists on the map. It even states that in the story on the map. "The dissolution of the kingdom"
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:07 am

I don't really see what the big deal is here. It's just a map on a world domination site, meant to play games on and to have fun with. I highly doubt any sort of political statement is trying to be made.

It's a fantasy situation, made into a map. Similar I think to Fractured America, or Fractured China. Those are both fantasy situations that haven't come to pass, and the goal is similar, unite the now broken, formerly great empire, etc. Yes, I understand that this a real break-up that happened, and that the people living there have strong feelings about it, but can't you people put aside your political bullcrap for a while and just enjoy the map for what it is? It's a fantasy map about re-uniting the old Hungarian Empire. Just take it at that and nothing more.

Koontz, I like your map and hope you don't change it to suit the whims of people who can't let go of their politics for just a minute to see the map for what it is. I'll enjoy playing on it, that's for sure. If they don't like it, they can just not play on it. Carry on, good sir.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Oneyed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:00 pm

koontz1973 wrote:The title stays as is. The kingdom no longer exists on the map. It even states that in the story on the map. "The dissolution of the kingdom"


nothing new from you...
...but in the story you have: Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. so is there kingdom or it is not? have you sure in what you do?

here are some reasons why Magyar Kiralysag is correct:
1, it was official name during Trianon.
2, the area which shows map and which you want to have united was known by this name.
3, from 1920 to 1946 it was still Kingdom with titular King.
4, Magyarorszag is modern name just for "Saved land" to use your terminology.

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Last edited by Oneyed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:41 pm

1.That is during, not after as map states.
2.The map may show lands from the kingdom, but not part of the kingdom.
3. The last king Charles 4th resigned, himself from state affairs in 1916. He died in 1922 after not being able to restore himself to power. No king came after him. You are thinking of Admiral Horthy who was Regent up to 1944 and also during the last months of Charles 4th life. He was never a king and Hungary was never a kingdom during his time.
4.Magyarorszag is just Hungary in Hungarian. I could of used Hungarian Democratic Republic, Hungarian Soviet Republic, Second Republic of Hungary, Third republic of Hungary or just Hungary. I chose to use Hungary on its own. To add a little flare to it and to stop it being confused with thenobodies80 map of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, I just used the Hungarian instead of English. You will see that there is one word in common with all of the titles and that is Hungary. Hungary (Magyarország) itself as a name has been around for centuries and used for centuries.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby GoranZ on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:43 pm

tkr4lf wrote:I don't really see what the big deal is here. It's just a map on a world domination site, meant to play games on and to have fun with. I highly doubt any sort of political statement is trying to be made.

The map is defacto political concept, everyone can read about about it in here: Greater Hungary (political concept)

tkr4lf wrote:It's a fantasy situation, made into a map. Similar I think to Fractured America, or Fractured China. Those are both fantasy situations that haven't come to pass, and the goal is similar, unite the now broken, formerly great empire, etc. Yes, I understand that this a real break-up that happened, and that the people living there have strong feelings about it, but can't you people put aside your political bullcrap for a while and just enjoy the map for what it is? It's a fantasy map about re-uniting the old Hungarian Empire. Just take it at that and nothing more.

There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

tkr4lf wrote:Koontz, I like your map and hope you don't change it to suit the whims of people who can't let go of their politics for just a minute to see the map for what it is. I'll enjoy playing on it, that's for sure. If they don't like it, they can just not play on it. Carry on, good sir.

That is not the point, the point is what if Mexican player makes map in which he unites Texas to Mexico? Where will this lead? Site full of political concepts.
http://youtu.be/XFxjy7f9RpY

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Oneyed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:45 pm

you are again wrong. the official name from 1920 to 1946 was Kingdom of Hungary.
btw, in the story you have: Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. so is there kingdom or it is not? have you sure in what you do?

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:53 pm

Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. Do you not see it Oneyed. Unite it once again. Meaning it is lost. Wow.

So you think that my wife is wrong then?
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby tkr4lf on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:57 pm

GoranZ wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:I don't really see what the big deal is here. It's just a map on a world domination site, meant to play games on and to have fun with. I highly doubt any sort of political statement is trying to be made.

The map is defacto political concept, everyone can read about about it in here: Greater Hungary (political concept)

That still doesn't change the fact that a political statement is not being made with the map. Just because there is a real life political debate/whatever about the reunification of the Hungarian Empire, doesn't and shouldn't affect this map. It's meant to be played on, not to make a political statement.


GoranZ wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:It's a fantasy situation, made into a map. Similar I think to Fractured America, or Fractured China. Those are both fantasy situations that haven't come to pass, and the goal is similar, unite the now broken, formerly great empire, etc. Yes, I understand that this a real break-up that happened, and that the people living there have strong feelings about it, but can't you people put aside your political bullcrap for a while and just enjoy the map for what it is? It's a fantasy map about re-uniting the old Hungarian Empire. Just take it at that and nothing more.

There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

I disagree that this map represents a political concept. Sure, they may be a political concept similar to this map, but this map isn't trying to identify itself with that political concept.

And I think it's similar to Fractured America/China because it takes a fantasy situation about rebuilding an old empire and makes it into a good map. As has been said in this thread already, there is almost 0% chance that the reunification of Hungary will happen, making this map fantasy. Just like there is 0% chance the Fractured America map will come to pass in our world. Sure, the North American continent may one day be fractured, but not like that map has it happening. It's just a map to play a game on. Stop taking it so seriously.

GoranZ wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:Koontz, I like your map and hope you don't change it to suit the whims of people who can't let go of their politics for just a minute to see the map for what it is. I'll enjoy playing on it, that's for sure. If they don't like it, they can just not play on it. Carry on, good sir.

That is not the point, the point is what if Mexican player makes map in which he unites Texas to Mexico? Where will this lead? Site full of political concepts.

I don't see how it's a political concept. Sure, some Mexicans want to reunite everything that once belonged to them. What would that have to do with a map about it on CC? The map is meant as a game. Hell, I live in Texas and wouldn't have a problem with a map like that. I would most certainly play on it. But, I'm capable of putting aside politics in the name of a game. Apparently you and oneyed aren't. Maybe you should try it.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Oneyed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:06 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. Do you not see it Oneyed. Unite it once again. Meaning it is lost. Wow.

So you think that my wife is wrong then?


at the first - you said that Kingdom is no more on the map, but then you use Unite kingdom - what means it is on the map.
at the second - as I said the official name to 1946 was Kingdom of Hungary.
at the third - the goal of the map is to unite Kingdom, not unite Magyarorszag.

btw, my mother is hungarian, father slovak. so I had never hungarian-sloavak problems, jsut I live here all life, I study history of both nations and I notice your errors. no for any political reasons but for historic, geographic accuracy. and I know difference between orszag and kiralysag.

I do not know what said your wife to you, but it looks that you have any national problem...

you ignore not just other nations on the map, geography or history, you also ignore reality about magyars. and all this you present as historic map?

once more - official name to 1946 was Kingdom of Hungary, not Magyarorszag.

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby nolefan5311 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:09 pm

Oneyed, do you get some sort of enjoyment out of arguing just to hear yourself argue? Because, unless koontz decides to do it himself, the map is not going to be changed. Your energy would be better focused working on your own maps.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Oneyed on Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:32 am

nolefan5311 wrote:Oneyed, do you get some sort of enjoyment out of arguing just to hear yourself argue? Because, unless koontz decides to do it himself, the map is not going to be changed. Your energy would be better focused working on your own maps.


do you understand that how is map made now it is political manifest? so something what also foundry foreman can not have? when you can see I have nothing against theme, which is political manifest and which is common theme of hungarian neofascists. I just noticed historic and geographic mistakes.

I do not know why is koontz so stubborn and why he can not see his mistakes. he had much notices in other maps and people "must" follow his advices because he is foundry assistant - he gives stamp which move maps from drafting room.

it is not just me, when you can see. and I bet if in the foundry will be more Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Serbs or Rumanians they will also notice his errors.

did you read this?

thenobodies80 wrote:Names can be slightly changed if necessary or suggested in the proper way. We don't want to offend people, although the thing should NOT become a "political discussion/talkshow" ;)
It's just a map to play, not a political manifest.

Anyway if someone is aware about better names, please suggest and I'll double check every single one and push koontz if those are correct.
But please don't touch gameplay for a reason that don't belong to a game site.

I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

Nobodies


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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:20 am

nolefan5311 wrote:Oneyed, do you get some sort of enjoyment out of arguing just to hear yourself argue?

Nole, I do not mind the debate and it is fun to have a debate. But this is the wrong place for it. If Oneyed wants to have it, have it in Where the Wild Things Are. I will be more than happy to join in there.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby GoranZ on Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:29 am

tkr4lf wrote:
GoranZ wrote:There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

I disagree that this map represents a political concept. Sure, they may be a political concept similar to this map, but this map isn't trying to identify itself with that political concept.

Whats the difference between Greater Hungary (political concept) and Unification of Hungarian Empire? None, they are one of the same thing, so the map is heavily relying on that political concept.
What is even worse the concept is based on DISTORTION OF HISTORY *, and that has nothing to do with fantasy.
*) Borrowed from Greater Hungary (political concept)
After the Treaty of Trianon, a political concept known as Hungarian revisionism became popular in Hungary. The Treaty of Trianon was an injury for the Hungarian people, and Hungarian revisionists have created a nationalistic ideology with the political goal of the restoration of borders of historical pre-Trianon Kingdom of Hungary.

The justification for this aim usually followed the fact that two-thirds of the country's area was taken by the neighboring countries with approximately 3 million Hungarians living in these territories...


Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)
http://youtu.be/XFxjy7f9RpY

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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:14 am

GoranZ wrote:
tkr4lf wrote:
GoranZ wrote:There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

I disagree that this map represents a political concept. Sure, they may be a political concept similar to this map, but this map isn't trying to identify itself with that political concept.

Whats the difference between Greater Hungary (political concept) and Unification of Hungarian Empire? None, they are one of the same thing, so the map is heavily relying on that political concept.
What is even worse the concept is based on DISTORTION OF HISTORY *, and that has nothing to do with fantasy.
*) Borrowed from Greater Hungary (political concept)
After the Treaty of Trianon, a political concept known as Hungarian revisionism became popular in Hungary. The Treaty of Trianon was an injury for the Hungarian people, and Hungarian revisionists have created a nationalistic ideology with the political goal of the restoration of borders of historical pre-Trianon Kingdom of Hungary.

The justification for this aim usually followed the fact that two-thirds of the country's area was taken by the neighboring countries with approximately 3 million Hungarians living in these territories...


Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

I believe it's called Alternate History, and there are entire works based around it. I guess you can call it Distortion, if you have an ulterior motive (political agenda), but that doesn't make it so. It's Alternate History, and as such is a work of fantasy.

It would be no different from making a map of the present-day countries that once made up the Roman Empire, with all the terits called by their Roman names, with the goal of re-uniting the Roman Empire. Sure, some people might be offended because they would never want to be a part of the Roman Empire again, but those people would need to realize that it is a work of fantasy and meant as some alternate history/fantasy to have fun with. No political statements. Just fun.
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Re: Magyarország [7/9] Pg 1/16

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:29 am

GoranZ wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

But as the map is proposed it has enormous political influence.

The problem is this: What if someone tries to make a map of unification of Great Moravia? It will consist of present day Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary and small parts of Ukraine, Poland and Romania. I'm sure that the idea will have huge support among all Slavic nationalities on this site, and huge disapproval from Hungarians. I'll give you why for the map if needed... "All Slavic nations will be connected". Everyone can correctly guess what will be the main goal of the map.
But from present day Unification of Great Moravia is only a desire that has around 0% chances to be achieved, more or less similarly as Unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

And what if everyone starts to make maps from mixture of desires and Countries/Cities... where will that lead?

It will lead to some good games, that's where.

What are you doing if you play a Napoleonic wargame? You are playing a scenario predicated on Napoleon's desire to rule Europe. That doesn't mean you are a Napoleon worshiper, or that you're French, or even that you like the French. It simply means you enjoy taking on the challenge and seeing thing from his viewpoint.

What are you doing when you play Third Reich, or one of its variants (probably the most common wargame type in the entire world)? You are pretending that you're the German High Command, trying to take over the world. It doesn't mean that you're a Nazi in real life, or that you're German, or that you even sympathize with 1% of the Nazi agenda. It's just fun to imagine yourself in that position, wielding that much power, and showing that you could use it better than the people who actually had it.

What are you doing when you play a game like Crusader Kings? You are pretending that you are a great Crusader, leading your armies to the Holy Land to butcher Mohammedan scum. That does not mean you hate Muslims in real life, it doesn't even mean that you're a good Catholic, and it certainly doesn't mean that in real life you would want to spend 10 years traveling through hostile lands, looting and pillaging just to eat. Hell, most of us, with our 20th Century city-bred sensibilities, would probably vomit if we really had to chop someone up with a sword. But it's fun to pretend.

I will gladly play this Magyar-perspective map, even though I am not a Magyar. Make that map of Greater Moravia, and I will gladly play that too! Make a map of Greater Somalia, and I will gladly play that too, even though I'm not Somalian. Make a map of Mussolini's aspirations for a New Roman Empire, and I will play that too, although I'm not Italian and I'm not a fascist.

I once designed a gaming scenario based on the premise that the French succeeded in kicking the British out of North America and the whole thing was French. In real life, I'm a big supporter of the British parliamentary system, and I'm glad the British won. But that doesn't stop me from being able, in a game, to immerse myself in hating the British and kicking their ass off the continent. If you are unable to make this kind of leap, then you are letting yourself get too straight-jacketed by your real-life bias.
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