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[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/30

Postby Gilligan on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:17 pm

I think that eliminating the losing condition could make this map better. It would force players to use their unique abilities more instead of just coordinating to get the losing condition on someone.

With Forbidden Lands being able to bombard everything, there's still a way to get the job done and it will take longer, more interesting games.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/30

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:36 pm

Gilligan wrote:I think that eliminating the losing condition could make this map better. It would force players to use their unique abilities more instead of just coordinating to get the losing condition on someone.

With Forbidden Lands being able to bombard everything, there's still a way to get the job done and it will take longer, more interesting games.


I am actually quite in agreement with this. I am feeling quite a bit like that provision causes people to go for the quick knockouts.

What would you say about adding a provision that if you have no basic territories then your kingdom can assault any of your favored territories. As a way to get back onto the game only you would be able to choose to reenter across the map. This would sort of stop an opponent from knocking all your troops off the map and blocking your reentry on your "#1" favored territory.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/30

Postby Gilligan on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:38 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:I think that eliminating the losing condition could make this map better. It would force players to use their unique abilities more instead of just coordinating to get the losing condition on someone.

With Forbidden Lands being able to bombard everything, there's still a way to get the job done and it will take longer, more interesting games.


I am actually quite in agreement with this. I am feeling quite a bit like that provision causes people to go for the quick knockouts.

What would you say about adding a provision that if you have no basic territories then your kingdom can assault any of your favored territories. As a way to get back onto the game only you would be able to choose to reenter across the map. This would sort of stop an opponent from knocking all your troops off the map and blocking your reentry on your "#1" favored territory.

=D13=


Ahhhhh, I like it!!

(my statement above also relates to the All Your Base map - interesting gameplay, but people get really focused on losing conditions. Don't let that happen here)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/30

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:04 pm

Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:I think that eliminating the losing condition could make this map better. It would force players to use their unique abilities more instead of just coordinating to get the losing condition on someone.

With Forbidden Lands being able to bombard everything, there's still a way to get the job done and it will take longer, more interesting games.


I am actually quite in agreement with this. I am feeling quite a bit like that provision causes people to go for the quick knockouts.

What would you say about adding a provision that if you have no basic territories then your kingdom can assault any of your favored territories. As a way to get back onto the game only you would be able to choose to reenter across the map. This would sort of stop an opponent from knocking all your troops off the map and blocking your reentry on your "#1" favored territory.

=D13=


Ahhhhh, I like it!!

(my statement above also relates to the All Your Base map - interesting gameplay, but people get really focused on losing conditions. Don't let that happen here)


I'll do another image with notes this evening and if that doesn't get any major dissent I can see about an xml update to go with the new images.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/30

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:35 pm

Ok this should be it ... thoughts?

Graphic Changes
  • forbidden lands killer 30 (slows down early use).
  • kingdoms are auto 2 (down from 3) and grants +1 bonus (a little less auto and 1 extra troop to deploy. This may promote stacking a bit in team games but then again maybe not).
  • druid bonus change (lets druids get a bonus earlier based on distribution of J and F territories).
  • elementalist bonus change (lets elementalists get a bonus earlier based on distribution of J and F territories).
  • aquatic bonus change (added +1 for minimum 1 adjacent to sea) this mill make max 8 instead of the previous 7 but give a bonus earlier.
  • seas killer 2 down from 3 (more attractive for aquatic).
  • changed radiation to +1 each and +3 if you have all 3 radiation to slow down progress of cultists just a bit.
  • the bomb killer 13 (slows down early use of bomb).
  • changed dwellers to +1 each cavern and +2 for all 3 caverns. (slight decrease based on the caverns adjacent ability being powerful on this small of a map).
  • changed miners/mines to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the single mine bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit)
  • changed undead/crypts to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the single crypt bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit)
  • changed wizards special to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the double special bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit as the forbidden lands bordering territories can be unbalanced for some kingdoms)
  • changed the losing condition to be when you only control a "special features" which includes "horde and underworld" you are eliminated. This will make it so that when you have no troops that can actually affect the board you are out of the game. However if you hold only the "underworld" you will actually not be eliminated you as you can still assault minions on the main map but this is not noted anywhere as players should honestly be able to figure that out and I am out of space on the map for that anyway.
  • added the following "If you hold no basic land D,F,J,M,P,S,T,V your Kingdom may assault any of your favored territories"
  • removed the -1 adjustment for starting bonus making the minimum 1 so that when you start the game you get a minimum 1 basic bonus +1 for a kingdom, and +1 for your favored territory. This will grant you 3 troops to deploy. In a 1-4 player game you will have 5 troops to deploy. With increased neutral buffers on the map and 2 start positions in 1-4 player games I see this as working out fine but we will keep a watchful eye on it.

Non Graphic Changes
  • reduce underworld to 5n start
  • increase 5n starts to 7n for P4, J3, S4, T4, F3, and M4 (should help discourage early assault)
  • reduce 5n starts to 3n on V2 and D2 (should focus players as this as the best route to the middle)

Chaos Ensues
  • max 2 start positions (2,3,4 player games will get 2 starts) this means if you start with Dragonkin, Gnomes, Cultists, Fanatics, and Undead you would have "Undead Fanatic Cultists" that got favored territory bonuses from both Volcanic and Mountains. This will make bonuses interesting as overlaps will occur where some territories are both favored and adjacent to favored making it very complicated. Barbarians would have verl little chance of any territories being neither favored or adjacent to favored.
=D13=

XML v2.0.4b
KFinal204b.xml
(76.87 KiB) Downloaded 11 times


Small v2.0.4
http://imageshack.com/a/img59/7894/2sik.png
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Large v2.0.4
http://imageshack.com/a/img542/6037/kuxm.png
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Last edited by dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby DearCyrus on Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:18 pm

I am highly in favor! That condition has got to go! Lol. Let's do this!
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 am

I posted some updates and a new xml above. If the changes look reasonable and the xml is approved we ill be ready for an update.

No territories were added however several continents were added. Will this require all games in progress to be finished?

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:15 am

Fyi, I still haven't been able to attack Bomb or Horde in any of my games..
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:18 am

iAmCaffeine wrote:Fyi, I still haven't been able to attack Bomb or Horde in any of my games..


Need screenshots
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:48 am

I'm now in a game where my partner has a Dweller region and can't see other Dwellers across the map. It's foggy so I can't show you.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:48 am

Gilligan wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Fyi, I still haven't been able to attack Bomb or Horde in any of my games..


Need screenshots


I can PM you screenshots, but I'm not posting them here for obvious reasons.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:08 am

iAmCaffeine wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Fyi, I still haven't been able to attack Bomb or Horde in any of my games..


Need screenshots


I can PM you screenshots, but I'm not posting them here for obvious reasons.


Understood, please do.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:31 am

dolomite13 wrote:I posted some updates and a new xml above. If the changes look reasonable and the xml is approved we ill be ready for an update.

No territories were added however several continents were added. Will this require all games in progress to be finished?

=D13=

Did you add the continents at the end, or did you add them in the middle? If at the end, then there "shouldn't" be a problem. If in the middle then we will have to close the map and wait until all games have finished before the XML gets uploaded.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:08 am

isaiah40 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:I posted some updates and a new xml above. If the changes look reasonable and the xml is approved we ill be ready for an update.

No territories were added however several continents were added. Will this require all games in progress to be finished?

=D13=

Did you add the continents at the end, or did you add them in the middle? If at the end, then there "shouldn't" be a problem. If in the middle then we will have to close the map and wait until all games have finished before the XML gets uploaded.


Crap they are in the middle and a few old continents were removed.

I think the map should be closed now so the games have a change to finish while we wait to see what iAmCafeen posts for screen shots on his bug reports.

I have had no problem with using the bomb in a game. And it may be a bug in the game engine that doesn't let you see through a teammates conditional border.

I don't think I have had had the Barbarians or I just ignored it and didn't use it.

=D13-
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:11 am

I talked to caffeine and he misunderstood the uniqueness of the abilities.

if I recall correctly...adding continents, middle or end, has no effect on active games.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:23 am

Gilligan wrote:I talked to caffeine and he misunderstood the uniqueness of the abilities.

if I recall correctly...adding continents, middle or end, has no effect on active games.


What about removing them? I removed several.

This link will provide you guys with a complete diff check of the last file Gilligan uploaded vs the latest one I uploaded.

http://diffchecker.com/f7xyscvd

The changes are because the games go so fast we could probably close it for a few days while they resolve if needed.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:30 am

I would rename <name>Hold Only Special Features or Horde</name> to <name>Only Special Features</name> because a) Hold is already included in the CC engine, and b) there's also demonic in addition to horde.

Removing bonuses shouldn't be an issue either. I'm trying to think of a scenario where we did this recently.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:01 pm

Found it -

Start reading here viewtopic.php?f=64&t=152467&start=540#p4141883 and you can see that I removed a Washington bonus because it was listed twice.

I can't find a post, but I remember not putting Nebraska in the XML at all and it was added later.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:09 pm

Gilligan wrote:I would rename <name>Hold Only Special Features or Horde</name> to <name>Only Special Features</name> because a) Hold is already included in the CC engine, and b) there's also demonic in addition to horde.

Removing bonuses shouldn't be an issue either. I'm trying to think of a scenario where we did this recently.


Yep you are right I made that change to the title. The way elimination will work is ... if you have only special features you are out of the game.

However we have an issue with the underworld. Technically if you hold the demonic and underworld spaces you can still assault the map at the minion spaces. But if you then lost your demonic special feature you would have troops stuck at the underworld because the conditional border requires demonic. Horde needs to be eliminated because they loose their connection to favored territories when they only have special features left.

My solution for now is to eliminate you if you have no kingdom or basic land territory but I can see where this might anger someone who stacked on underworld thinking they could surprise an opponent.

Anyway here is the latest xml. I also linked it in the previous post with the new map.

KFinal204b.xml
(76.87 KiB) Downloaded 40 times


=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby betiko on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:13 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:I've got three active games where I have Barbarians and cannot see Horde.


same problem in the dubs and in the trips against you. not to mention that dolomite is our opponent lol.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:15 pm

betiko wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:I've got three active games where I have Barbarians and cannot see Horde.


same problem in the dubs and in the trips against you. not to mention that dolomite is our opponent lol.


Make sure that someone actually OWNS barbarians...
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:36 pm

Gilligan wrote:
betiko wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:I've got three active games where I have Barbarians and cannot see Horde.


same problem in the dubs and in the trips against you. not to mention that dolomite is our opponent lol.


Make sure that someone actually OWNS barbarians...


Based on the code in the xml as long as you own both a Kingdom and Barbarians then your Favored Territories should assault the horde. So lets say you have Yeti and Barbarians then all Tundra you control should assault Horde. This should also mean you should be able to see the Horde. However I cannot guarantee that a teammate could see the Horde as I don't know how the game engine handles conditional borders and teammates.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:40 pm

I would think that teammates can see it too.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:45 pm

OK there is definitely something wrong ... I have Lizardmen and Barbarians in a game with fog and I have a Jungle and don't see Horde. I w3ill be going on my lunch break now and will look into this.

These are the continents I have

No Standard Territory Bonus (-1)
Lizardmen - Favored (1)
Lizardmen - Adjacent to Favored (1)
Lizardmen - Barbarians (0)
Treefolk - Barbarians - Not Favored or Adjacent (1)
Human - Barbarians - Not Favored or Adjacent (1)
Gnome - Barbarians - Not Favored or Adjacent (1)
No Kingdom - Basic Land (1)
Lizardmen [3]

=D13=
Last edited by dolomite13 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 10/1

Postby Gilligan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:47 pm

dolomite13 wrote:OK there is definitely something wrong ... I have Lizardmen and Barbarians in a game with fog and I have a Jungle and don't see Horde. I w3ill be going on my lunch break now and will look into this.

These are the continents I have ... I should not have some of these.

No Standard Territory Bonus (-1)
Lizardmen - Favored (1)
Lizardmen - Adjacent to Favored (1)
Lizardmen - Barbarians (0)
Treefolk - Barbarians - Not Favored or Adjacent (1)
Human - Barbarians - Not Favored or Adjacent (1)
Gnome - Barbarians - Not Favored or Adjacent (1)

No Kingdom - Basic Land (1)
Lizardmen [3]

=D13=


Screenshot please :)

Also do not take anything from BOB. It does not recognize mandatory tags in bonuses. You must have an F region, a M region, and a P region
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