[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Proposed Changes (7/3/14)

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:05 am

dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:51 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=


uh huh... make it quick, you're over as it is.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:09 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=


uh huh... make it quick, you're over as it is.


I know ... I might even do the update this evening as the wife decided to go out with work friends to happy hour which means I have a bit of free time this evenin =)

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:24 am

Made a few changes... here we go
- maelstrom no longer bombards
- J1 - J4 order shifted a bit to make it consistent with other territories
- swapped a few icons in T4-P4 and F3-D4
- reworded a few things to make them clearer
- large map is 840 x 800 and small map is now 620 x 590 (down from 630 wide)

=D13=

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:37 am

Nice, liking the improved legend entries for Elementalists and druids, wording looks cleaner to me.

Which leaves wizards (consitent colouring of the maelstrom icons) as the only thing I can see that looks a bit iffy

So other than that, looks good :)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:29 pm

I'm having an extremely difficult time interpreting the legend, the special features primarily. The Wizards is especially confusing.

I do see what Eric is saying about the Maelstrom icons, the bigger one is pink in the middle, while the littler ones are redder, the colors should be consistent.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:29 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:I'm having an extremely difficult time interpreting the legend, the special features primarily. The Wizards is especially confusing.

I do see what Eric is saying about the Maelstrom icons, the bigger one is pink in the middle, while the littler ones are redder, the colors should be consistent.


I am not at all satisfied with Wizards and think I have an idea how it can be changed to make it cooler and easier to understand. I would start by removing the maelstrom and all existing abilities and replace them as follows.

Key Entry
[F] Territories that border the forbidden lands

Wizards
2x[F] +2
4x[F] +5
6x[F] +8

This would shrink the height of the wizards area and give me some wiggle room elsewhere for clarifications.

I will also take another pass at all of the abilities and the key to see if there is any way to make it easier to understand.

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:29 pm

dolomite13 wrote:Key Entry
[F] Territories that border the forbidden lands

Wizards
[F][F] +2
[F][F][F][F] +5
[F][F][F][F][F][F] +8

This would shrink the height of the wizards area and give me some wiggle room elsewhere for clarifications.

I will also take another pass at all of the abilities and the key to see if there is any way to make it easier to understand.

=D13=


Nice idea, could work:
You'll need something other than [F] though since that will be too easily confused for forest - [Fl] maybe, or perhaps a similar symbol (in black) to the adjacent to seas one (but that would have to be notably different to the aformentioned adj(seas) symbol to avoid confusion - diagonal break in the other direction perhaps)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:38 pm

I have been working on cleaning up the key and changing wizards and I realized that "Fishermen" is just plain weird. I would like to change them to "Aquatic" and change seas as follows.

Old Way
-- Seas cannot be assault or be assaulted

Fishermen
- Can assault seas
- Seas autodeploy 2
- Seas that border are territories you control are adjacent
* This allows you to conquer a sea then reinforce across the sea if you control territories on both sides.

New Way
-- Seas can be bombarded by and can assault bordering territories

Aquatic
- Can assault seas
- Seas +2 bonus each
* this allows you to conquer and then assault from seas effectively taking them away as impassible terrain for you.

Thoughts???

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:49 pm

Could work, it leaves seas as an eternal spoil location for everyone else mind (TBH I'd leave it as it is for now see how people find it in beta) but if you like the new version better (to balance the bonus correctly, + 1 each , +5 for all might be a better starting position - +2 each is going to be overpowered for sure)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:02 pm

EricPhail wrote:Could work, it leaves seas as an eternal spoil location for everyone else mind (TBH I'd leave it as it is for now see how people find it in beta) but if you like the new version better (to balance the bonus correctly, + 1 each , +5 for all might be a better starting position - +2 each is going to be overpowered for sure)


I do like this much better. Seas and the Forbidden Lands are the only 2 territories that are bordered by 6 other territories and they are quite spread out. I feel like it will be quite difficult for the "Aquatic" player to take and hold a Sea but you could be right in that the bonus for holding them may be too high. However consider that if you pull "Elementalist Dragonkin" you could have a +2 bonus by conquering only 2 territories. Same for "Aquatic". However the special ability is more in line with the "Dwellers" and they suffer a slight decrease in bonus. So I am inclined to go with your recommendation of +1, +2, +3, +5.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/18)

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:33 pm

Latest images and changes

* Wizards gain bonuses from controlling territories that border the forbidden lands
* 2 = +2
* 4 = +5
* 6 = +8

* Seas can be bombarded by and can assault bordering territories
* Fishermen now Aquatic
* Aquatic can assault seas
* Aquatic Seas +1 bonus each +1 more for all 4

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/18)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:53 pm

Looks good to me, I really like the symbol for bordering the forbidden lands

Question re: bonuses
1 Favourite is +1, 2 = +2 etc
4 is +8 (1 each and 4 for all 4)?

Fanatics seem to be (including standard bonuses)
1= +1
2 = +4 (2+2)
3 = +8 (3+5)
4 = +16 (4+4+8)

It's barbarians that I'm not sure on, is it:
If they hold the horde they get an extra +1 per favorite
Meaning without horde as normal
With Horde:
1 = +4 (1+1+ auto 2)
2 = +6 (2+2+ auto 2)
3 = +8 (3+3+ auto 2)
4 = +14 (4+4+4 + auto 2)?
if so thats rather overpowered given it also borders all your favorite territories (and is thus a shortcut)
you may wish to rebalance it's bonuses
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/18)

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:43 pm

EricPhail wrote:Looks good to me, I really like the symbol for bordering the forbidden lands

Thanks

EricPhail wrote:Question re: bonuses
1 Favourite is +1, 2 = +2 etc
4 is +8 (1 each and 4 for all 4)?


Correct... I think I have an idea... see below

EricPhail wrote:Fanatics seem to be (including standard bonuses)
1= +1
2 = +4 (2+2)
3 = +8 (3+5)
4 = +16 (4+4+8)


Fanatics are in addition to your favorites ... this may need to be scaled back a tiny bit

EricPhail wrote:It's barbarians that I'm not sure on, is it:
If they hold the horde they get an extra +1 per favorite
Meaning without horde as normal
With Horde:
1 = +4 (1+1+ auto 2)
2 = +6 (2+2+ auto 2)
3 = +8 (3+3+ auto 2)
4 = +14 (4+4+4 + auto 2)?
if so thats rather overpowered given it also borders all your favorite territories (and is thus a shortcut)
you may wish to rebalance it's bonuses


This does seem a bit much ... the demons autodeploy also seems like a bonus that cant be taken away like others can ...

I am going to look at demons, barbarians, and fanatics...

and

the big idea... I am going to add a note that all bonuses are cumulative, provide an example and change the bonus amounts to reflect this.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/18)

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:13 am

I think this is it for changes in mechanics.

Probably need one more look at graphics though as the specials can be spaced out a little better yet.

We don't need every special to be 100% balanced. Players will figure out what kingdom/special combos are a bit more overpowered and will take steps to control or eliminate those players before they get out of control. And the forbidden lands can be used to clear the game of bonuses. Leaving you with non favored/non adjacent and that's not fantastic basically changing the board for a person who has lost their kingdom and special to that of the standard 1/3 game mechanic. Overall I see the game as being a mass of chaos but providing players with a unique play experience every game.

v0.2.6 - Changes

* Added note that all bonuses are cumulative
* changed barbarians to get +1 for every 2 territories not favored and not adjacent to favored (+7 max)
* removed a bonus from barbarians
* changed horde to decay 1 (from auto 2)
* changed demons to auto 1 (from 3)
* changed demons to +1 per demons territory down from +2
* fanatics total bonus now +6 down from +8
* all bonuses brought in line with cumulative structure

If you held all 4 favored territories, 3 adjacent and 6 (non adjacent/non favored) you would have a bonus of +13 (8+3+2)
If you were also "undead" and held 2 territories with Crypts you would get an additional +4

Barbarians are now more in line with their original design and I was able to get "decay" back on the map.

=D13=

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/19)

Postby EricPhail on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:47 pm

Looks pretty good, at the moment.
I'd suggest unless there is anything else obviously broken it might be wise to leave any further balance work 'till it's in beta

Graphics: S1 needs a more consistent underside with the rest of the map maybe P1 also.
In the legend if space can be found for the eg.:
eg. 4x[f]+[af]=9
would be better than it is now (minor quibble but...)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/19)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:16 pm

At the risk of asking a stupid noob question... is there some reason territories adjacent to your favored territories are worth as much of a bonus as your favored territory? Wouldn't it make more sense to have them be worth something like 2x[af]=1*?
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/19)

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:26 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:At the risk of asking a stupid noob question... is there some reason territories adjacent to your favored territories are worth as much of a bonus as your favored territory? Wouldn't it make more sense to have them be worth something like 2x[af]=1*?


Its part of my "personal continent" concept. I figured it was easier to make favored and adjacent worth 1 each and then give a bonus when you held all 4 favored rather than to have

[f]=+1 each
4x[f]=+4
2x[af]=+1 each
3x[xaf]=+1 each

Lets look at how that would change the bonuses

Current

No Standard Territory Bonus (minimum 3)
Kingdoms autodeploy 3
+1 for each favored territory. (+4 bonus)
+4 bonus if you control all four of your favored territories. (+4 bonus)
+1 for each land territory that is adjacent to a favored territory. Territories you control on the opposite sides of a chasm are adjacent. (+13 bonus)
+1 for every 3 land territories that not adjacent to a favored territory. (15 territories = +5 bonus)

Maximum 26 bonus and 3 autodeploy

With that change

+1 for every 2 land territory that is adjacent to a favored territory. Territories you control on the opposite sides of a chasm are adjacent. (+6 bonus)

Maximum 19 bonus and 3 autodeploy

.................................

Hmmm...
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/19)

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:32 pm

The more I think about it the more I like Tanarri's suggestion... It's still faster than the traditional 1/3 mechanic and puts order of importance to [f] then [af] then [xaf] as it should be.

[f]+1*
4x[f]+4
2x[af]+1*
3x[xaf]+1*

With the max bonus from special features being 8 in a 8 player game and up to 24 in a 2 player game (undead miner wizards) it makes sense to structure it that way.

I will make one more update to everything hopefully tonight or tomorrow then I will be out of town for a week.

=D13=

p.s. I think there are 6,652,800 possible Kingdom/Special combos in an 8 player game.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/19)

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:30 pm

Dolomite....forgive if this has been mentioned...but i cannot find any "Stop" (red circle with line through it) indicators on the map. yet from the legend they seem to be part of gameplay as they have bonuses.
Forgive if i am simply not seeing them or not reading something i should. ;)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/19)

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:23 am

cairnswk wrote:Dolomite....forgive if this has been mentioned...but i cannot find any "Stop" (red circle with line through it) indicators on the map. yet from the legend they seem to be part of gameplay as they have bonuses.
Forgive if i am simply not seeing them or not reading something i should. ;)


The gold star, black star, and red (/) don't appear on the map. They are indicators for the bonus structure and explained in the key. They are different for every Kingdom based on the favored territories for that kingdom.

Gold star is your favored territory as displayed by your kingdom... if you are Dragonkin your favored are "V" volcanic.
Black star is any basic land territory that borders one of your favored territories.
Red circle is any territory that isn't one of the first two.

In this example for Treefolk
The gold star is dark green
The black star is the light green
Red circle is the remaining grey land territories

The places they are referenced are under "Bonus" and in special features for "Barbarians" and "Fanatics"

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/19)

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:26 am

Here are the latest maps with the adjacent to favored bonus change

=D13=

SMALL
https://imageshack.com/scaled/large/708/gtk.png
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LARGE
https://imageshack.com/scaled/large/69/cpo.png
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/21)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:34 pm

I think the new bonuses definitely make more sense and provide enough of a bonus to keep the game going well. I think the graphics are doing nicely as well. I'm really looking forward to playing this map, I really like the concept of having a different strategy with each game you play :)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/21)

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:46 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I think the new bonuses definitely make more sense and provide enough of a bonus to keep the game going well. I think the graphics are doing nicely as well. I'm really looking forward to playing this map, I really like the concept of having a different strategy with each game you play :)


Thanx I hope the XML can handle it ;)

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/21)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:04 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I think the new bonuses definitely make more sense and provide enough of a bonus to keep the game going well. I think the graphics are doing nicely as well. I'm really looking forward to playing this map, I really like the concept of having a different strategy with each game you play :)


Thanx I hope the XML can handle it ;)

=D13=


I don't think there should be any problems, from what little I know of the XML coding. The adjacent and no adjacent bonuses should just be standard bonuses tied to owning a specific race in such a way that there's a separate collections list for each race vs. favored/adjacent/non-adjacent. The special abilities should be pretty straight forward as well for most and follow the same kind of coding as the races for the others. There'll be some conditional borders in there as well for the chasms and some race abilities.

There was a question I had regarding the Forbidden Lands. The wording in the instructions is such that it's not clear to me whether it can attack the special abilities and/or the race spots. The feel of the gameplay leads me to believe the answer is that it doesn't, since that would completely eliminate a player's bonus structure and just doesn't feel like it goes with the gameplay of the game very well. The fact that it's labelled as bombarding all "Locations" instead of "Land and Sea" as the bomb is, leads me to believe that it may be possible to bombard the race and/or special abilities from the Forbidden Lands.
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