[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Proposed Changes (7/3/14)

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - XML Update 12/15

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:50 am

So far I have played 2 speed games and everything seems to be working as intended. I have to say that in 2 player the bonus gets crazy rather fast. I think I like it but if you have one bad round of dice that could mean the end for you.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - XML Update 12/15

Postby Gilligan on Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:06 pm

2013-12-31 00:07:21 - bigWham: typo in bottom left: "...you Kingdom..."
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - XML Update 12/15

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:13 pm

Gilligan wrote:2013-12-31 00:07:21 - bigWham: typo in bottom left: "...you Kingdom..."


I will compile a list for the next week or so and do a new image next week sometime (hopefully that's the only one).

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - XML Update 12/15

Postby VicFontaine on Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:24 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:2013-12-31 00:07:21 - bigWham: typo in bottom left: "...you Kingdom..."


I will compile a list for the next week or so and do a new image next week sometime (hopefully that's the only one).

=D13=


Yeah, the typos are an obvious issue. I don't know how you can clear up the instructions a bit, but I had to read the beta map topic to begin to grasp this map. Maybe I'm the only one, I dunno. Generally, I'm having a hard time understanding the map because the English isn't bad, but it's not great. Sorry :(
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby drunkmonkey on Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:43 pm

Game 13808887

My opponent attacked S2 from T2, even though he had no other territories that bordered Blood Towers. Am I misunderstanding the rule, or is that a bug?

Edit: I think it's just poor wording. I read "control [...] to unlock its impassible borders" as "its [Blood Towers'] borders are impassible, unless you control [...] to unlock them".
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Gilligan on Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:51 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:Game 13808887

My opponent attacked S2 from T2, even though he had no other territories that bordered Blood Towers. Am I misunderstanding the rule, or is that a bug?

Edit: I think it's just poor wording. I read "control [...] to unlock its impassible borders" as "its [Blood Towers'] borders are impassible, unless you control [...] to unlock them".


"its" refers to Forbidden Lands.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby drunkmonkey on Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:53 pm

Gilligan wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:Game 13808887

My opponent attacked S2 from T2, even though he had no other territories that bordered Blood Towers. Am I misunderstanding the rule, or is that a bug?

Edit: I think it's just poor wording. I read "control [...] to unlock its impassible borders" as "its [Blood Towers'] borders are impassible, unless you control [...] to unlock them".


"its" refers to Forbidden Lands.


Oops. Thanks.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby jigger1986 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:01 pm

glad this map is finallty back, a couple questions?

Is there no more +2 auto drop on kingdoms anymore?
Why was this taken away?
Why do we not start with two kingdoms in 1v1 anymore?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:17 pm

jigger1986 wrote:glad this map is finallty back, a couple questions?

Me too =)

jigger1986 wrote:Is there no more +2 auto drop on kingdoms anymore?

It was removed.

jigger1986 wrote:Why was this taken away?

Because you are now granted a minimum bonus of +3 like most other CC maps that was not there previously. Net gain +1 and its all deployable where you need it.

jigger1986 wrote:Why do we not start with two kingdoms in 1v1 anymore?

The map grants a bonus ratio for favored territories of 1 for 1 (100% return) and that doubles to 2 for 1 when you control all 4. When you have 2 kingdoms that bonus can quickly get out of hand with tons of double dipping where some territories were both favored for one and adjacent to favored for the other. It was so difficult to keep track of and not even remotely fair to every combo. With the added change of +3 minimum and +1/3 of every basic land the bonuses were already large enough. There were also some odd xml concerns with multiple kingdoms and how they interacted with the new way of kingdoms assaulting their favored territories that would have required some complicated coding as well. This way it fits with the story about each kingdom being in this for themselves. The best way to simulate the old way is to play 2v2 polymorphic games.

Hope that answers your questions.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby jigger1986 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:34 pm

Thanks Dolomite,

I preferred the old (unbalanced) map, but Im still going to be a fan of this map...
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:47 pm

jigger1986 wrote:Thanks Dolomite, I preferred the old (unbalanced) map, but Im still going to be a fan of this map...

Well It is far from completely balanced but I think the changes will surely help even out the early game a bit. The biggest problem is getting screwed by the dice early. And I will take that over simply unbalanced early play. And thanx =)

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Keefie on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:51 pm

I loved this map when it first came out.

Now it has the worst game play of any map on CC.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Gilligan on Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:57 pm

Keefie wrote:I loved this map when it first came out.

Now it has the worst game play of any map on CC.


Thanks for the feedback on why. :)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Keefie on Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:34 pm

I've just finished this game Game 13819462

It was over after 5 rounds when I'd taken all of the basic land territories from green. I then had to spend another 5 rounds building a stack in order to bombard Yeti from the Forbidden Lands. Realy pointless :(
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Gilligan on Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:39 pm

Keefie wrote:I've just finished this game Game 13819462

It was over after 5 rounds when I'd taken all of the basic land territories from green. I then had to spend another 5 rounds building a stack in order to bombard Yeti from the Forbidden Lands. Realy pointless :(


I think the map is more designed for games with a lot of players.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dakky21 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:08 pm

Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:53 pm

dakky21 wrote:Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?

Bob gets confused on conditional borders still. Are you also Wizards?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:06 pm

Keefie wrote:I've just finished this game Game 13819462 ... It was over after 5 rounds when I'd taken all of the basic land territories from green. I then had to spend another 5 rounds building a stack in order to bombard Yeti from the Forbidden Lands. Realy pointless :(

The gameplay you are not so fond of was introduced to stop stacking in team games from creating quick eliminations. I was also hoping that a player who lost their basic lands could get back in the game but as it stands if another player takes you out it is pretty hard to come back. If anything the game may need to lose the +3 minimum and provide a +3 only when you have no basic lands so as to get you that first territory but then make you rely on the map bonuses for the remainder of the game. I am reluctant to make any major bonus changes for now though, I want to see how the game plays with more than just 2 people before considering anything seriously.

Gilligan wrote:I think the map is more designed for games with a lot of players.

I think it plays best with more players. All of my 2 player games have been over in 10 turns or less, mainly due to bad dice and no way to come back.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Keefie on Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:02 am

When the map first came out it lived up to it's 'Krazy' tag, now it's been neutered it's as dull as dishwater. I really can't see it playing any better for teams.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dakky21 on Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:28 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
dakky21 wrote:Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?

Bob gets confused on conditional borders still. Are you also Wizards?

=D13=


We're not wizards and it's 2v2...
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:03 am

dakky21 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
dakky21 wrote:Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?

Bob gets confused on conditional borders still. Are you also Wizards?

=D13=


We're not wizards and it's 2v2...


Yep that appears to be a BoB issue with conditional borders.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby agentcom on Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:39 am

@Keefie ... I can think of quite a few games that require 5 rounds to clean up a 1v1 game after it's over. Pretty much any trench game has this. Large maps tend to have it (Feudal Epic, World 2.1). Maps with large barriers have it (Labyrinth). This one falls into the latter category. I don't think this is necessarily a problem. I've basically played it 1v1 when other opponents deadbeated, and I thought it was still pretty "Krazy" and didn't find the delay in assaulting the large neutral stack to be too inconvenient. The craziness came in building up the bonuses. I'm not sure why it took you 5 rounds either. You can get pretty big bonuses pretty quickly and your opponent can't get too far from his base once he's been blocked into it. I guess I'm not seeing what you're describing as issues.

Dolomite, I just noticed something else in the key: You have the white arrow defined as "one way bombard" but the only place you use it is with the Forb Land. I think you could get rid of the definition in the key and then replace the arrow with the word "bombards" underneath Forbidden Lands. Two reasons for this: (1) no reason to make somebody hunt down the definition of the arrow when that arrow isn't used anywhere else; and (2) you have a similar-looking arrow over in the bottom-left describing how the "favored" system works.

I just saw another potential space-saver, but I'm not sure how you or anybody will feel about it. Your 3-line description of the chasms could be replaced by:

[Chasm symbol] Chasm: [Gold star] <==> [red star]
... edit: I think this might be too confusing.

Finally, I like where you're going with the "All bonuses are cumulative ..." text and symbols, but ... it appears to me that there might be a problem with the example you chose. In reality, you would get +4 from that example, right? The +3 that you describe but also a +1 for 3 basic lands. Right now, if I took that literally, I would assume that favored and adjacent don't count toward basic lands bonus, which I don't think is the case. Maybe I'm being overly critical here, but it's something that I could see causing problems.

I think a better example might be:

2x [red star] + [gold star] = +2
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:44 pm

agentcom wrote:Dolomite, I just noticed something else in the key: You have the white arrow defined as "one way bombard" but the only place you use it is with the Forb Land. I think you could get rid of the definition in the key and then replace the arrow with the word "bombards" underneath Forbidden Lands. Two reasons for this: (1) no reason to make somebody hunt down the definition of the arrow when that arrow isn't used anywhere else; and (2) you have a similar-looking arrow over in the bottom-left describing how the "favored" system works.


Hmmm I will look at that ... I used to have more of those arrows but they were removed.

agentcom wrote:Finally, I like where you're going with the "All bonuses are cumulative ..." text and symbols, but ... it appears to me that there might be a problem with the example you chose. In reality, you would get +4 from that example, right? The +3 that you describe but also a +1 for 3 basic lands. Right now, if I took that literally, I would assume that favored and adjacent don't count toward basic lands bonus, which I don't think is the case. Maybe I'm being overly critical here, but it's something that I could see causing problems.

I think a better example might be: 2x [red star] + [gold star] = +2


The +3 is correct. 2x [black star] + 1x [gold star + (3x [Red Star])] = +3 as favored counts as a gold star and a red star and adjacent to favored count as black star and red star. The example might need to be reworked slightly.

I am currently considering the minimum +3 and trying to decide if that should be +1 minimum and grant a bonus to a player that does not have any favored territories of +3 minimum. It seems confusing at first but I am thinking about the very early game and what happens when someone gets dice screwed and doesn't take the first territory on turn 1. The person who grabbed a favored that also grants a +1 for their special gets +5 on the next turn and odds are starts expanding while the person who had that dice fail is behind by a few turns. If you make the change I suggest then Player 1 would get 3 troops to deploy, take a favored that has a special and be granted +3 on their next turn. Player 2 would lose the die roll and have 2 troops left and on their next turn they would get +3 again. So at least for a turn or two it would work out about the same. And I don't think the +3 vs +1 would unbalance for a person who stacked for several turns before taking their first territory.

I am also thinking about that +1 for every 2 adjacent to favored and +1for every 3 basic land in general and thinking about what changing it to +1/3 adjacent and +1/5 basic would do to the bonus curve. Based on all favored being separated by 2 adjacent if you took the shortest path to all of the favored the bonus would look like this.

Current Curve
1 favored = +1
1 favored 1 adjacent = +1
1 favored 2 adjacent = +3
2 favored 2 adjacent = +4
2 favored 3 adjacent = +4
2 favored 4 adjacent = +6
3 favored 4 adjacent = +7
3 favored 5 adjacent = +7
3 favored 6 adjacent = +8
4 favored 6 adjacent = +14
etc...

Possible Curve
1 favored = +1
1 favored 1 adjacent = +1
1 favored 2 adjacent = +1
2 favored 2 adjacent = +2
2 favored 3 adjacent = +4
2 favored 4 adjacent = +4
3 favored 4 adjacent = +5
3 favored 5 adjacent = +5
3 favored 6 adjacent = +6
4 favored 6 adjacent = +12
etc...

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby SiriusCowKing on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:41 pm

I am in a 1v1 game right now.

I am the green player and I have treefolks, barbarian, dwellers and undead. With my current territories I should have a total of 9 units per turn but I only have 7. I don't know what's wrong there, I think it's a problem with the dwellers bonus.

Red player got dragonkind, aquatic (you can't see it on the screenshot sorry), druids and fanatics. With his current territories he should have 6 units per turn but he has 7. My guess is that V2 is counted twice in the aquatic bonus since it's adjacent to 2 seas.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Gilligan on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:06 pm

I only see 7 that you should be getting.

3 = standard deploy
2 = favored
2 = dwellers
= 7
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