[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Proposed Changes (7/3/14)

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dakky21 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:08 pm

Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:53 pm

dakky21 wrote:Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?

Bob gets confused on conditional borders still. Are you also Wizards?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:06 pm

Keefie wrote:I've just finished this game Game 13819462 ... It was over after 5 rounds when I'd taken all of the basic land territories from green. I then had to spend another 5 rounds building a stack in order to bombard Yeti from the Forbidden Lands. Realy pointless :(

The gameplay you are not so fond of was introduced to stop stacking in team games from creating quick eliminations. I was also hoping that a player who lost their basic lands could get back in the game but as it stands if another player takes you out it is pretty hard to come back. If anything the game may need to lose the +3 minimum and provide a +3 only when you have no basic lands so as to get you that first territory but then make you rely on the map bonuses for the remainder of the game. I am reluctant to make any major bonus changes for now though, I want to see how the game plays with more than just 2 people before considering anything seriously.

Gilligan wrote:I think the map is more designed for games with a lot of players.

I think it plays best with more players. All of my 2 player games have been over in 10 turns or less, mainly due to bad dice and no way to come back.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Keefie on Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:02 am

When the map first came out it lived up to it's 'Krazy' tag, now it's been neutered it's as dull as dishwater. I really can't see it playing any better for teams.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dakky21 on Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:28 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
dakky21 wrote:Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?

Bob gets confused on conditional borders still. Are you also Wizards?

=D13=


We're not wizards and it's 2v2...
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:03 am

dakky21 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
dakky21 wrote:Quick question... is BOB wrong or I am... Lizardmen takes J2 as his 1st territory, BOB says J2 borders F2, V4, M2, P2, etc. and all of those have bounds with Blood towers... why is it so, it seems I can't rely on BOB anymore?

Bob gets confused on conditional borders still. Are you also Wizards?

=D13=


We're not wizards and it's 2v2...


Yep that appears to be a BoB issue with conditional borders.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby agentcom on Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:39 am

@Keefie ... I can think of quite a few games that require 5 rounds to clean up a 1v1 game after it's over. Pretty much any trench game has this. Large maps tend to have it (Feudal Epic, World 2.1). Maps with large barriers have it (Labyrinth). This one falls into the latter category. I don't think this is necessarily a problem. I've basically played it 1v1 when other opponents deadbeated, and I thought it was still pretty "Krazy" and didn't find the delay in assaulting the large neutral stack to be too inconvenient. The craziness came in building up the bonuses. I'm not sure why it took you 5 rounds either. You can get pretty big bonuses pretty quickly and your opponent can't get too far from his base once he's been blocked into it. I guess I'm not seeing what you're describing as issues.

Dolomite, I just noticed something else in the key: You have the white arrow defined as "one way bombard" but the only place you use it is with the Forb Land. I think you could get rid of the definition in the key and then replace the arrow with the word "bombards" underneath Forbidden Lands. Two reasons for this: (1) no reason to make somebody hunt down the definition of the arrow when that arrow isn't used anywhere else; and (2) you have a similar-looking arrow over in the bottom-left describing how the "favored" system works.

I just saw another potential space-saver, but I'm not sure how you or anybody will feel about it. Your 3-line description of the chasms could be replaced by:

[Chasm symbol] Chasm: [Gold star] <==> [red star]
... edit: I think this might be too confusing.

Finally, I like where you're going with the "All bonuses are cumulative ..." text and symbols, but ... it appears to me that there might be a problem with the example you chose. In reality, you would get +4 from that example, right? The +3 that you describe but also a +1 for 3 basic lands. Right now, if I took that literally, I would assume that favored and adjacent don't count toward basic lands bonus, which I don't think is the case. Maybe I'm being overly critical here, but it's something that I could see causing problems.

I think a better example might be:

2x [red star] + [gold star] = +2
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:44 pm

agentcom wrote:Dolomite, I just noticed something else in the key: You have the white arrow defined as "one way bombard" but the only place you use it is with the Forb Land. I think you could get rid of the definition in the key and then replace the arrow with the word "bombards" underneath Forbidden Lands. Two reasons for this: (1) no reason to make somebody hunt down the definition of the arrow when that arrow isn't used anywhere else; and (2) you have a similar-looking arrow over in the bottom-left describing how the "favored" system works.


Hmmm I will look at that ... I used to have more of those arrows but they were removed.

agentcom wrote:Finally, I like where you're going with the "All bonuses are cumulative ..." text and symbols, but ... it appears to me that there might be a problem with the example you chose. In reality, you would get +4 from that example, right? The +3 that you describe but also a +1 for 3 basic lands. Right now, if I took that literally, I would assume that favored and adjacent don't count toward basic lands bonus, which I don't think is the case. Maybe I'm being overly critical here, but it's something that I could see causing problems.

I think a better example might be: 2x [red star] + [gold star] = +2


The +3 is correct. 2x [black star] + 1x [gold star + (3x [Red Star])] = +3 as favored counts as a gold star and a red star and adjacent to favored count as black star and red star. The example might need to be reworked slightly.

I am currently considering the minimum +3 and trying to decide if that should be +1 minimum and grant a bonus to a player that does not have any favored territories of +3 minimum. It seems confusing at first but I am thinking about the very early game and what happens when someone gets dice screwed and doesn't take the first territory on turn 1. The person who grabbed a favored that also grants a +1 for their special gets +5 on the next turn and odds are starts expanding while the person who had that dice fail is behind by a few turns. If you make the change I suggest then Player 1 would get 3 troops to deploy, take a favored that has a special and be granted +3 on their next turn. Player 2 would lose the die roll and have 2 troops left and on their next turn they would get +3 again. So at least for a turn or two it would work out about the same. And I don't think the +3 vs +1 would unbalance for a person who stacked for several turns before taking their first territory.

I am also thinking about that +1 for every 2 adjacent to favored and +1for every 3 basic land in general and thinking about what changing it to +1/3 adjacent and +1/5 basic would do to the bonus curve. Based on all favored being separated by 2 adjacent if you took the shortest path to all of the favored the bonus would look like this.

Current Curve
1 favored = +1
1 favored 1 adjacent = +1
1 favored 2 adjacent = +3
2 favored 2 adjacent = +4
2 favored 3 adjacent = +4
2 favored 4 adjacent = +6
3 favored 4 adjacent = +7
3 favored 5 adjacent = +7
3 favored 6 adjacent = +8
4 favored 6 adjacent = +14
etc...

Possible Curve
1 favored = +1
1 favored 1 adjacent = +1
1 favored 2 adjacent = +1
2 favored 2 adjacent = +2
2 favored 3 adjacent = +4
2 favored 4 adjacent = +4
3 favored 4 adjacent = +5
3 favored 5 adjacent = +5
3 favored 6 adjacent = +6
4 favored 6 adjacent = +12
etc...

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby SiriusCowKing on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:41 pm

I am in a 1v1 game right now.

I am the green player and I have treefolks, barbarian, dwellers and undead. With my current territories I should have a total of 9 units per turn but I only have 7. I don't know what's wrong there, I think it's a problem with the dwellers bonus.

Red player got dragonkind, aquatic (you can't see it on the screenshot sorry), druids and fanatics. With his current territories he should have 6 units per turn but he has 7. My guess is that V2 is counted twice in the aquatic bonus since it's adjacent to 2 seas.

Screenshot:http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2719/690b.png
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Gilligan on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:06 pm

I only see 7 that you should be getting.

3 = standard deploy
2 = favored
2 = dwellers
= 7
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:49 pm

SiriusCowKing wrote:I am in a 1v1 game right now.

I am the green player and I have treefolks, barbarian, dwellers and undead. With my current territories I should have a total of 9 units per turn but I only have 7. I don't know what's wrong there, I think it's a problem with the dwellers bonus.

Red player got dragonkind, aquatic (you can't see it on the screenshot sorry), druids and fanatics. With his current territories he should have 6 units per turn but he has 7. My guess is that V2 is counted twice in the aquatic bonus since it's adjacent to 2 seas.

Screenshot:http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2719/690b.png


I actually see 8 that you should be getting, if I understand the bonus structure correctly. The three amounts Gilligan mentioned above, but I also think there should be a +1 for Barbarians for owning three basic land territories (2 forests and a swamp). Other than that perhaps you're getting an extra +1 by thinking dwellers works like Demonic or Cosmic and gives an extra +1 when you own two instead of the +2 Dwellers give when you own all 4?

Still, it does look like there's an error as far as that Barbarian bonus is concerned. Any thoughts dolomite?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:42 am

SiriusCowKing wrote:I am in a 1v1 game right now.

I am the green player and I have treefolks, barbarian, dwellers and undead. With my current territories I should have a total of 9 units per turn but I only have 7. I don't know what's wrong there, I think it's a problem with the dwellers bonus.

Red player got dragonkind, aquatic (you can't see it on the screenshot sorry), druids and fanatics. With his current territories he should have 6 units per turn but he has 7. My guess is that V2 is counted twice in the aquatic bonus since it's adjacent to 2 seas.

Screenshot:http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2719/690b.png


Red (+7)
+3 minimum deploy
+1 for 3 basic land
+1 for 1 favored (V2)
+1 for 2 "adjacent to favored"
+1 for 3 territories that border seas (aquatic)

Green (+9)
+3 minimum deploy
+1 for 3 basic land
+2 for 2 favored (V2)
+2 for 2 caverns (dwellers)
+1 for 3 basic land (barbarians)

The problem is the Dwellers bonus being screwed up a bit. Their are two issues with it in that it incorrectly lists "D4 - Radiation" not "S4 - Caverns" and the "required" number should be 2.

Good Catch!

Code: Select all
<continent>
   <name>Dwellers - Caverns</name>
   <bonuses>
       <bonus required="2">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="3">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="4">1</bonus>
      <bonus required="5">3</bonus>
   </bonuses>
   <components>
      <territory>F1 - Caverns</territory>
      <territory>T4 - Caverns</territory>
      <territory>M2 - Caverns</territory>
      <territory>D4 - Radiation</territory>
      <territory type="mandatory">Dwellers</territory>
   </components>
   <required>3</required>
</continent>


The following XML should fix that.

=D13=
Attachments
KKFinal307a.xml
Updates Dwellers Bonuses
(70.83 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby SiriusCowKing on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:31 am

dolomite13 wrote:Red (+7)
+3 minimum deploy
+1 for 3 basic land
+1 for 1 favored (V2)
+1 for 2 "adjacent to favored"
+1 for 3 territories that border seas (aquatic)

Oh yeah, I forgot the +1 for adjacent to favored. Thanks for your efforts by the way, the map will be great once it's bug free.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:14 pm

"Miners - Mines" are also screwed up ... please stand by for the update

I am investigating S4 it appears to b where the issue is :(

:(

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:00 pm

This XML should fix the problems with Cosmic (D4), Miners (T2), and Dwellers (S4)

KKFinal307b.xml
(70.84 KiB) Downloaded 26 times


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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:25 pm

What do you guys think about one minor tweak to the bonus structure?

Currently the map has a +3 basic bonus, basically for doing nothing. I was thinking of still having that but attaching that to basic lands so that your first 11 basic lands would not really add anything as they are counted in the +3 minimum so once you got to 12 you would start to get that increased bonus.

I also have a major concern...

It is possible to get dice screwed and fall behind too quickly. I wanted to add a bonus if you held no basic lands but I feel it could too easily be abused. Lets say that I granted a +2 bonus for holding no basic land. In a 4v4 team game all players of one team could drop on a single player and by turn 3 that player would have amassed 58 troops. If that player's favored territory was also a blood tower that player could possibly blitz through to the forbidden lands and wipe out the enemy kingdoms and most probably their troops. As it is they could do that with 39 troops and I am already concerned about this strategy enough that limiting the map to max of 2 player teams or no team games might be a viable option.

Thoughts?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Testing Continues

Postby 300spartans on Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:51 am

Game 13804040 can you please explain why blue cant attack j3 or j4 from lizardmen? is this a glitch? he could attack those places in the beginning but know he cant
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Testing Continues

Postby Swifte on Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:11 am

300spartans wrote:Game 13804040 can you please explain why blue cant attack j3 or j4 from lizardmen? is this a glitch? he could attack those places in the beginning but know he cant


explained in lower left corner of the map. If you own no spots on the main board, your Kingdom can attack any of your favored territories, for example J1, J2, J3, J4.
Once you own a spot on the main board, the kingdom is no longer adjacent to the main land territories.

P.S. there's a typo in that same textbox... says 'you Kingdom' instead of 'your Kingdom'
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Testing Continues

Postby TaelS on Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:37 pm

(My bad, sorry!).
Last edited by TaelS on Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Testing Continues

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:16 pm

TaelS wrote:According to the legend, the Horde can only assault your own favored territories (not other's). But I've just lost my stack (in my own favored territory) because I was assaulted from the Horde Game 13873791.
So either the legend is wrong, or there is a bug here.


I looked at the code and I can't find an inappropriate connection between the Horde and any given territory or between any territory and the Horde. I do see a place when I can try and modify it to lock it down a little tighter.

If you can send me more specific info in a PM about what territory it was and what kingdom you are it may help track that down.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:35 pm

dolomite13 wrote:What do you guys think about one minor tweak to the bonus structure? Currently the map has a +3 basic bonus, basically for doing nothing. I was thinking of still having that but attaching that to basic lands so that your first 11 basic lands would not really add anything as they are counted in the +3 minimum so once you got to 12 you would start to get that increased bonus.


No Thoughts?

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby Gilligan on Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:02 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:What do you guys think about one minor tweak to the bonus structure? Currently the map has a +3 basic bonus, basically for doing nothing. I was thinking of still having that but attaching that to basic lands so that your first 11 basic lands would not really add anything as they are counted in the +3 minimum so once you got to 12 you would start to get that increased bonus.


No Thoughts?

=D13=


It could help...Could give a boost to those slow-starters, but hopefully wouldn't give a bigger boost to the fast-starters.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Testing Continues

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:25 pm

One more thought is that Wizards ability to jump around by taking only 2 territories that border each other gives them too much of an early advantage and allows them to grab the bonuses along the blood towers rather quickly. I would like to increase it from "2 territories that border blood towers = all territories that border blood towers are adjacent" to 3 territories. This is still fairly easily attainable but would slightly slow down progression in those games where people stack for several turns before moving out onto the map or trench games.

Another option is to make it work like the access to the forbidden lands and you would need to control territories that border at least 2 blood towers to make all territories that border blood towers adjacent.

=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Testing Continues

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:05 am

Horde and Underworld are still not being used in the games I have played. Is their value still too high? Should they be more like seas and be 1 or 2 neutral and maybe killer instead? would you use them to jump around the board then?

- Horde could be 2n and be required to grant the +1 per 3 basic land added bonus.

- Underworld could be Killer 1 and start with 1n ... then minion territories would be connected when you "sacrifice to" hold to the underworld. I think the bonus could stay the same.


=D13=
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - We're Back!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:00 am

dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:What do you guys think about one minor tweak to the bonus structure? Currently the map has a +3 basic bonus, basically for doing nothing. I was thinking of still having that but attaching that to basic lands so that your first 11 basic lands would not really add anything as they are counted in the +3 minimum so once you got to 12 you would start to get that increased bonus.


No Thoughts?

=D13=


I'd approve a change like that. It would help equalize the difference in bonuses early game and help minimize the effects getting screwed by the dice early game have.
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