Tribal War - Ancient Israel v16.1 [2013-12-14] pg23 XML&GFX

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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel v8.3 [2012-11-21] pg6

Postby x-raider on Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:56 am

  • Manahaim in Gad should be Mahanaim.
  • I suggest the area containing "The Jordan River and Sea of Galilee" should have diagonal stripes to emphasize the impassibility.
    If you don't like that you could just give it the same (or similar) effect as the rivers.
  • Maybe add a danger symbol to each of the dead sea territs.
  • Perhaps change the colour of Reuben. It looks too similar to the special zones (war zones and dead sea).
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel v8.3 [2012-11-21] pg6

Postby BluU on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:09 pm

I hope this doesn't sound stupid, But the shade of purple used for Rimmon with the combination of the Ship symbol of Zebulun and a River going out in the west side of that terit, might cause people to mistake this terit as a lake.
Can more earth tone be used for it?
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel v8.3 [2012-11-21] pg6

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:39 pm

A few suggested bonus changes:

Asher needs to be reduced to a +2. You're also going to need to place a starting neutral in one of these territories to prevent a bonus being dropped.

Zebulon -- something doesn't sit right with me that 1 territory can yield a +2 bonus. I also don't like that it is the only way to get into Asher from the Warzone because of the river. So you have the tough decision of either keeping the starting neutral low to allow easy access into Asher but making it too easy to take, or keeping the neutral high to make it harder to take, but then reducing movement into Asher. What do you think?

Issachar is probably too high, but it does border the warzone, so it's not going to be an easy bonus to hold. I am probably fine with it as is, but I will run it by the guru, iancanton, to see what he thinks. Also, you're going to need a starting neutral placed here to keep a bonus from being dropped.

I don't see the Manasseh symbol in the Eastern Warzone.

For Dan, you can probably increase the bonus to a +3, since it does border the Warzone. You will also need a starting neutral placed here.

Benjamin at +3 is way too high. This should be a +1 at most, maybe a +2 if you remove the impassable between Jerusalem and the Warzone. And a starting neutral will need to be placed here.

Simeon should be reduced to a +2.

Gad can probably upped to a +5 as well. Are you opposed to adding another crossing between Jerusalem and Beth-Nimrah, or maybe extending the Dead Sea up to accomodate this?

After you've taken into account all the starting neutrals you'll need, update the starting region count to see where we are and if the golden numbers are going to be good.

Overall this maps looks awesome. The mountains are amazing. The Dead Seas could use a little work (they actually look like they're "higher" than the land territories they border, if that makes sense), and I don't think anything would change if you just made it Dead Sea (1 region instead of 2).

The capital bonus also has me a little worried as well. They will all need to start as neutral to prevent bonus dropping, which takes care of the starting neutral issue for the smaller continents. How strongly do you feel about leaving that bonus in? Are you ok with reducing it somewhat (maybe +2 for 4 or something like that)?
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel v8.3 [2012-11-21] pg6

Postby Seamus76 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:41 pm

CURRENT UPDATE INFO - 2012-11-28:
Thanks Nolefan for the great info. I tried to make as many changes as I could.

- Updated bonus numbers according to Nolefan's feedback.
Zebulon -- something doesn't sit right with me that 1 territory can yield a +2 bonus. I also don't like that it is the only way to get into Asher from the Warzone because of the river. So you have the tough decision of either keeping the starting neutral low to allow easy access into Asher but making it too easy to take, or keeping the neutral high to make it harder to take, but then reducing movement into Asher. What do you think?

- Personally I don't think the movement into Asher is really reduced. Players are still only 1 tert away from that region, it's just once they take Rimmon they get a bonus. This makes for a strategy decision of moving more guys into Asher or leaving a large number to protect the bonus. The bonus, as pointed out, can then be attacked by the War Zone, which makes it pretty hard to hold, but so are the Swords and Sling Shots. Which is why Zebulun can not be more than those weapons. I would like to keep it the way it is, unless there is strong opposition or we get into Beta play and there is negative feedback.
- Added a bridge from Jerusalem to Beth-nimrah
Benjamin at +3 is way too high. This should be a +1 at most, maybe a +2 if you remove the impassable between Jerusalem and the Warzone. And a starting neutral will need to be placed here.

- I lowered Benjamin to a +1, but with the addition of the bridge from Jerusalem, it can now be attacked by 4 terts. I think it should prob go up to +2 instead. Thoughts?
- Added the capital Edrei to the Eastern War Zone.
- Adjusted the Capital Bonus from +2 for 3 to +2 for 4
The capital bonus also has me a little worried as well. They will all need to start as neutral to prevent bonus dropping, which takes care of the starting neutral issue for the smaller continents. How strongly do you feel about leaving that bonus in? Are you ok with reducing it somewhat (maybe +2 for 4 or something like that)?

- Are making the capitals starting neutral a must? Personally I think leaving them as possible starting positions brings them into play more. If they all start neutral I don't think anyone would purposefully take them to achieve the bonus, but rather would take them only to move around the map if need be. Instead, would it be better to make it a rather low bonus, something like +1 for 4?
- Updated all borders and glows to fit within my background image.

Need to do:
- Finish adding drop shadows to all icons.
- Finalize colors and post colorblind versions.

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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.0 [2012-11-28] pg6

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:22 pm

Seamus, found this on the web one day
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and though you might like to look at the colours for your map. This is what I took the colours from for Vertex and Austrum so they work for the colour blind people really well.

As for the glows, some seem stronger than others, did you use colours from all over the spectrum or keep the colours within the same cords?
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.0 [2012-11-28] pg7

Postby Seamus76 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:04 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Seamus, found this on the web one day
Image
and though you might like to look at the colours for your map. This is what I took the colours from for Vertex and Austrum so they work for the colour blind people really well.

As for the glows, some seem stronger than others, did you use colours from all over the spectrum or keep the colours within the same cords?


I tried using some of the same colors from TW-Fla, but I need 11 colors which makes it a little challenging. It's not an area I know much about so I basically just used colors from this site http://www.toledo-bend.com/colorblind/colortable.asp, and played around with them a bit to try to get them to be different under the color blind filters. I don't know what cords are, which might be part of the problem. Any help is greatly appreciated. One color that I will still use for this map is the War Zone Color to keep them consistent across maps.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.0 [2012-11-28] pg7

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:03 am

In gimps colour selector, you have a box and a slider. When you found a colour that works, use the slider to change the colour. Gimps colours are 6 digits (x/y cords). This will give you different colours of the same type. Rueben looks really dark whilst Judah is very light. If you are going to keep the war zone colour, use the slider next to the box to change the colour.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.0 [2012-11-28] pg7

Postby Seamus76 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:15 pm

Ok, colors I can work on. Does anyone else have any gameplay suggestions? I'm thinking with one or two tweaks to the bonus values the gameplay should pretty much be done. Thoughts?
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel v8.3 [2012-11-21] pg6

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:43 pm

Seamus76 wrote:
Zebulon -- something doesn't sit right with me that 1 territory can yield a +2 bonus. I also don't like that it is the only way to get into Asher from the Warzone because of the river. So you have the tough decision of either keeping the starting neutral low to allow easy access into Asher but making it too easy to take, or keeping the neutral high to make it harder to take, but then reducing movement into Asher. What do you think?

- Personally I don't think the movement into Asher is really reduced. Players are still only 1 tert away from that region, it's just once they take Rimmon they get a bonus. This makes for a strategy decision of moving more guys into Asher or leaving a large number to protect the bonus. The bonus, as pointed out, can then be attacked by the War Zone, which makes it pretty hard to hold, but so are the Swords and Sling Shots. Which is why Zebulun can not be more than those weapons. I would like to keep it the way it is, unless there is strong opposition or we get into Beta play and there is negative feedback.


The issue here is that I can place a stack on Rimmon, have the same number of borders to defend as I did holding Asher, and have my bonus doubled from +2 (for Asher) to +4. I think it would be safer to reduce it to a +1, and if Beta testing shows it should be more, than you can increase it at that time. And in addition, it's a capital, so that potential bonus is going to come into play.

Seamus76 wrote:
Benjamin at +3 is way too high. This should be a +1 at most, maybe a +2 if you remove the impassable between Jerusalem and the Warzone. And a starting neutral will need to be placed here.

- I lowered Benjamin to a +1, but with the addition of the bridge from Jerusalem, it can now be attacked by 4 terts. I think it should prob go up to +2 instead. Thoughts?


I still think it should remain a +1. We'll see what ian thinks though.

Seamus76 wrote:- Adjusted the Capital Bonus from +2 for 3 to +2 for 4
The capital bonus also has me a little worried as well. They will all need to start as neutral to prevent bonus dropping, which takes care of the starting neutral issue for the smaller continents. How strongly do you feel about leaving that bonus in? Are you ok with reducing it somewhat (maybe +2 for 4 or something like that)?

- Are making the capitals starting neutral a must? Personally I think leaving them as possible starting positions brings them into play more. If they all start neutral I don't think anyone would purposefully take them to achieve the bonus, but rather would take them only to move around the map if need be. Instead, would it be better to make it a rather low bonus, something like +1 for 4?


This is a good solution, but you will have to figure it out so that the likelihood of dropping a bonus is less than 2.5%. I suggest that all capitals that are in continents which need a starting neutral placed there anyway to prevent the continent bonus being dropped (Asher, Rimmon, Bethshan, Beth Shemesh, Gibeon) start off as neutral 3's, and all other capitals start as neutrals 2's.

Once you've determined the above, please post an image in the first post with all starting neutrals so we can determine the amount of territories distributed at the drop.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel v8.3 [2012-11-21] pg6

Postby Seamus76 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:41 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
Seamus76 wrote:
Zebulon -- something doesn't sit right with me that 1 territory can yield a +2 bonus. I also don't like that it is the only way to get into Asher from the Warzone because of the river. So you have the tough decision of either keeping the starting neutral low to allow easy access into Asher but making it too easy to take, or keeping the neutral high to make it harder to take, but then reducing movement into Asher. What do you think?

- Personally I don't think the movement into Asher is really reduced. Players are still only 1 tert away from that region, it's just once they take Rimmon they get a bonus. This makes for a strategy decision of moving more guys into Asher or leaving a large number to protect the bonus. The bonus, as pointed out, can then be attacked by the War Zone, which makes it pretty hard to hold, but so are the Swords and Sling Shots. Which is why Zebulun can not be more than those weapons. I would like to keep it the way it is, unless there is strong opposition or we get into Beta play and there is negative feedback.


The issue here is that I can place a stack on Rimmon, have the same number of borders to defend as I did holding Asher, and have my bonus doubled from +2 (for Asher) to +4. I think it would be safer to reduce it to a +1, and if Beta testing shows it should be more, than you can increase it at that time. And in addition, it's a capital, so that potential bonus is going to come into play.

Ok, I think I can live with it being +1, since it is a little different than Muccosukee in TW-Fla, which was originally only attacked by 2 terts but I changed to 3 during beta. I wouldn't ever want to add a bridge from the war zone into Asher, which would defeat the purpose of the river altogether.

nolefan5311 wrote:
Seamus76 wrote:
Benjamin at +3 is way too high. This should be a +1 at most, maybe a +2 if you remove the impassable between Jerusalem and the Warzone. And a starting neutral will need to be placed here.

- I lowered Benjamin to a +1, but with the addition of the bridge from Jerusalem, it can now be attacked by 4 terts. I think it should prob go up to +2 instead. Thoughts?


I still think it should remain a +1. We'll see what ian thinks though.

Sounds good. My vote is +2, but hopefully we'll hear back soon.
nolefan5311 wrote:
Seamus76 wrote:- Adjusted the Capital Bonus from +2 for 3 to +2 for 4
The capital bonus also has me a little worried as well. They will all need to start as neutral to prevent bonus dropping, which takes care of the starting neutral issue for the smaller continents. How strongly do you feel about leaving that bonus in? Are you ok with reducing it somewhat (maybe +2 for 4 or something like that)?

- Are making the capitals starting neutral a must? Personally I think leaving them as possible starting positions brings them into play more. If they all start neutral I don't think anyone would purposefully take them to achieve the bonus, but rather would take them only to move around the map if need be. Instead, would it be better to make it a rather low bonus, something like +1 for 4?


This is a good solution, but you will have to figure it out so that the likelihood of dropping a bonus is less than 2.5%. I suggest that all capitals that are in continents which need a starting neutral placed there anyway to prevent the continent bonus being dropped (Asher, Rimmon, Bethshan, Beth Shemesh, Gibeon) start off as neutral 3's, and all other capitals start as neutrals 2's.

Once you've determined the above, please post an image in the first post with all starting neutrals so we can determine the amount of territories distributed at the drop.

So you're still saying that all of them should be neutral, which I would like to avoid somehow. Even if only three of them were in the pot for distribution that might mean one player would get 1 or 2 and try for the bonus. I still think even if 8 of the 13 were neutral 2 players wouldn't be inclined to go for them. There are plenty of maps where larger bonuses are dropped and games are lost in the first round (England for example, or Pearl Harbor, [which I know is supposed to be part of the theme, etc.]). Also, how is the 2.5% calculated so I can play around with the numbers to possibly come up with a solution? Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.0 [2012-11-28] pg7

Postby Seamus76 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:22 pm

CURRENT UPDATE INFO - 2012-11-30:
- This version includes the added starting neutrals, which if the other capitals are left open would total 15 neutrals. There are 84 total terts, so 69 would be avail starting points, which fits in with the magic numbers. If someone could recount for me just to be sure that would be great.
- Updated bonus numbers according to Nolefan's feedback. We'll wait for Ian to let us know some final info when possible.
- Toned down all of the region borders.
- Toned down the glow from Reuben and Gad, as well as Issachar (which I used the color from Judah but adjusted it to be different, but the same).
- Went through and fixed any tert borders that had overlapped, etc.

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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby nolefan5311 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:51 pm

I'm not sure this has been answered yet, but I was curious if there is a reason you have 2 Dead Sea territories that border each other and serve pretty much the same function?
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby Seamus76 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:00 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I'm not sure this has been answered yet, but I was curious if there is a reason you have 2 Dead Sea territories that border each other and serve pretty much the same function?

Two reasons really. One, which is the underlying theme of God's prophecy, and choice and sacrifice. I wanted to create situations for players to have to make a choice of going the short way and losing some troops, or fighting it out the long way. Two, and more importantly I didn't want someone who has Tzoar to be able to just take one Dead Sea tert and be able to go all the way up to Gath. I thought about making it one tert with a large neutral like +5 or something, but I like two smaller terts which allow players to cross into Dibon without being exposed and seen by so many other terts.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby Seamus76 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:18 am

If any of the graphics mods can take a quick look and let me know what to work on that would be great. I'll have some time this weekend and want to get this one on the way up. Also to that point, let's finalize any current gameplay issues as soon as we can, I don't think there are many at all so let's knock them out.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:24 am

Rivers
Mountains need shadows
Bridges look very blurred
Some of the glows do not reach the borders

Why are you asking, you must know these things already. ;)
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby generalhead on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:25 am

I would like to see what it would look like with some color integrated into the Jordan river. It looks a little bland now.
Koontz is correct the bridges do look blurry.
I thought the mountains did have shading, does he mean a drop shadow?
like Koontz said the highlight too ex the bottom left of DIBON and Bottom of JEZREEL
Could you try lowing your bonus region borders to 75% opacity too see if that looks good. It might not, i will leave that up to your discretion.
There is a strange faint white line above the title of the map I don't know if that was meant to be there.
Is there a way to blend in the line better between the Jordan river and the Dead sea. It looks a little odd, like it is a seperate entity and not joined.
The highlight for Simeon blend in with the river around it. I don't know if you have any colors left to use but a different color might make the river stand out more.
The highlight around Rimmon too blends in with the water, especially with it being at the end of the river it looks like it flows into it. Again I don't know if you have any colors left to use.
Sorry I haven't commented lately, I am no good commenting on game play. I like looking at graphics though.
As always these are suggestions, just trying to give a new way to look at the map. I am no where experienced in the graphics field. just trying to give my opinion for what it's worth
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:02 am

Line between the dead seas, give it a fluid look (curvy) so it is not so straight. :P
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby Seamus76 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:27 am

koontz1973 wrote:Rivers
Mountains need shadows
Bridges look very blurred
Some of the glows do not reach the borders

Why are you asking, you must know these things already. ;)

You know how it is after you look at the same image for weeks at a time, you miss some of those little things. I'll work on the glows, which might be off just a tad. The bridges are from an extremely large and detailed image, so maybe it's the drop shadow that is making them look blurred, but I'll try loading them and scaling them again to see if that helps as well.

You need to be more specific when you say "Rivers", I'm not sure what you mean. Also for the mountains as well. I've added the black side to them to give the shadow so I'm not sure what you mean.

Post by generalhead » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:25 am
I would like to see what it would look like with some color integrated into the Jordan river. It looks a little bland now.
Koontz is correct the bridges do look blurry.
I thought the mountains did have shading, does he mean a drop shadow?
like Koontz said the highlight too ex the bottom left of DIBON and Bottom of JEZREEL
Could you try lowing your bonus region borders to 75% opacity too see if that looks good. It might not, i will leave that up to your discretion.
There is a strange faint white line above the title of the map I don't know if that was meant to be there.
Is there a way to blend in the line better between the Jordan river and the Dead sea. It looks a little odd, like it is a seperate entity and not joined.
The highlight for Simeon blend in with the river around it. I don't know if you have any colors left to use but a different color might make the river stand out more.
The highlight around Rimmon too blends in with the water, especially with it being at the end of the river it looks like it flows into it. Again I don't know if you have any colors left to use.
Sorry I haven't commented lately, I am no good commenting on game play. I like looking at graphics though.
As always these are suggestions, just trying to give a new way to look at the map. I am no where experienced in the graphics field. just trying to give my opinion for what it's worth


I want the Jordan to be that way actually. I want it to be a background thought and not really noticeable. I tried a couple of ways to color it, and stripe it, and give it a feel like the other rivers, but it didn't work, I didn't like it, and I'm not planning to put anything else in there. The Dead Sea is a separate entity, so it should actually look like that. The faint white line is just a part of the background paper image texture, and is there on TW-Fla as well, since they are the same image. I guess I have to work on the Rimmon color, since it is not a lake, and shouldn't be confused as such, if in fact that is what you are referring to. Keep up the comments GH.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:56 am

When I say rivers, you now have 3 types of water. The dead sea which needs to be different as it is a territ. Sea of Galilee is OK but it is the sea (under the legends)which is even lighter than this and the river impassables. Make the impassable rivers like Galilee and you might be onto a winner. Also, make them darker in the middle and try to give them some movement.

Mountains, try to give them a little shadow. This is up to you but I thought it might look nice.
Large bridges scaled down rarely work. Do them yourself, very easy to do and would look better. If you keep these ones, post the link from where you got them for royalty free checking.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:03 pm

koontz1973 wrote:... post the link from where you got them for royalty free checking.

I would say Public Domain because royalty free does not necessarily mean you can use it for commercial purposes. Now if a commercial license was purchased, then that is another thing.
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby cairnswk on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:19 pm

Seamus76
what i do with my rivers is try to keep them the all the same colour and a slightly different colour from the ocean.
you have a difficulty 'coz u have no ocean
what i suggest you do, and i don't know what software you're using...
is create non-stroked layers with the pen tool that have a water/fluid texture to them so that you fulfill the requirement some are asking for in that the water looks like it is flowing...
place this layer under your land terts so that the land outlines create the river/inland-sea edges...give the Dead Sea another very faint slightly washed edge so it appears just slightly different from the other rivers at the edges, perhaps something like a very weak washed out light brown
for the terts on the Dead Sea indicate them with dotted/stroked lines atop the water layer so that there is still continuity with the water that is not interrupted by plain strokes as you have now.

Hope this helps. :)
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby cairnswk on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:23 pm

addition. the river mouths to the sea and inland rivers have to be open-ended :)
check what i did on my NZ map
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby generalhead on Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:02 pm

Cairns is correct, the rivers in his New Zealand map look more natural. Give it a look when you get a minute.
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Here is another one that shows the rivers opening up and matching the ocean
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby iancanton on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:14 am

the layout is certainly unusual, though faithful to tribal war florida. the bonuses are mostly good, except for there being not enough differential between the larger areas and the smaller ones.

my first observation is that judah, which has 15 regions, is lkely to be a wasteland that no-one wants, unless u hike the bonus to something that really cannot be ignored, such as +10.

gad also deserves an additional +2 to bring it up to +7 because trying to occupy and defend such a high number of easily-accessible regions is risky when there are quicker ways to earn a bonus.

an extra +1 for nephtali, making +5, is in order. like gad, it has more regions than most other bonuses and borders one of the war zones.

ian. :)
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Re: Tribal War - Ancient Israel 9.1 [2012-11-30] pg7

Postby Seamus76 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:36 am

CURRENT UPDATE INFO - 2012-12-04:
- Updated all of the rivers. Let me know some thoughts. This is how I had the river on TW-Fla, but for these I added some additional color.
- Redid all of the bridges by hand. I think they look pretty good.
- Updated bonus numbers based on Ian's feedback.
- Removed the main color on the Dead Sea terts but left a little glow around the edges. Also, changed the divider line.
- Fixed any border glows that were lacking.

CURRENT MAP VERSION:
v10.0 - Large (840x800)
Click image to enlarge.
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