The Temple of Jinn [03/02/2014] V9m pg 15

[Blakkrose]

But it is not what is said in the victory condition (lose the "s"). Again, this is just to make the board easy to understand.

What are all the blue regions (T3b for example)?

All monsters seem to be a 5 neutral, why is Iblis a 10?

I understand you correctly? Are you referring to the legend?
I modified the legend and labels bonuses.
The blue regions are teleports. There are 5 bidirectional pairs.
Iblis is the bigger monster because it protects the teleporter that leads to the final part of the level: the Temple of Jinn

Click image to enlarge.

[Blakkrose]

someone was concerned about the different distances from starting points to Victory condition Temple...
Think it was EricPhil....

Well... what you can do (instead of changing the map - or moving the starting location) is you can make weaker monsters and more bonuses along the trail for the players that are farther away... And make the players with a shorter path - to have stronger monsters, and or no bonuses along the way - unless they go out of their way for them...

If done mathematically you can balance out the board with out any major changes, just changes in variable values...

Or you can make it no matter where they start they need to control something in all four corners of the map to open passage to the temple... Maybe like the gems..

If I modify the bonuses along the paths between the players must necessarily change the number of gems and their location (I have placed in an equidistant between them, there are two identical stones nearby) and then the same bonus in proportion to the number of gems.

I did not understand what you mean with your second sentence.
Perhaps you mean that I should eliminate the starting points and leave the server the task of assigning a random initial territory to each player?

I'd rather give a little room to each player.
I'm perfectly willing to change the level. Where do you think it is better to change the dungeon?
koontz1973 what do you suggest?

[EricPhail]

I worry that not only are the crystals and the temple the only army bonus easily secured (in this case I mean all in one area) they also allow VERY powerful bombardments (If you get control of the temple, especially in trench you might be able to bombard the other players out of the match without really bothering about the victory condition as only monsters, teleports and the crystal zones are immune, could also lead to eternal stalemates as several players block each others path to advancement)

thoughts for fixing:
1. at least double all monsters (bar maybe the ghul and acolyte), as a victory condition, they should be higher neutral count anyway: this makes rushing for the temple less viable and thus the starting position distance imbalance weaker
2. consider toning down the power of the bombardments:
either give the territory that actually bombards a strong decay (~10 would be a reasonable start)
or create a killer territory that does the bombardment (conditional borders prevent taking it before gaining the area)

this reduces the advantage gainable by rushing to an area with a bombardement (especially powerful in trench or assassin)

of course perhaps everyone else disagrees with my fear that bombard rush matches will happen

[Blakkrose]

...
thoughts for fixing:
1. at least double all monsters (bar maybe the ghul and acolyte), as a victory condition, they should be higher neutral count anyway: this makes rushing for the temple less viable and thus the starting position distance imbalance weaker
2. consider toning down the power of the bombardments:
either give the territory that actually bombards a strong decay (~10 would be a reasonable start)
or create a killer territory that does the bombardment (conditional borders prevent taking it before gaining the area)

this reduces the advantage gainable by rushing to an area with a bombardement (especially powerful in trench or assassin)

of course perhaps everyone else disagrees with my fear that bombard rush matches will happen

1. You mean perhaps change 4 Jinn from 5 to 10 (Marid, Dao, Djinn and Efreet) and change Iblis from 10 to 20?

2. I prefer the decay of territories that bombard but maybe 10 is too much.
I can not create the killer territores why make it impossible to take the bonus area.

I could insert a bonus for the control of monsters. This would push not to entrench in the areas from which bombards

[Aleena]

Victory condition:
Control ALL monsters and the Temple..

Since players need to control all of the monsters, this part of the victory condition will force all players to travel across the entire board - so set or random starting points I feel really does not matter, for no matter where you start - you have to travel to all locations which are scattered across the board...

I like what you have I see no need for change on this subject...Though I'm all ways welcome for a blood bath and doubling monsters lives sounds good to me..

As for the Bombardment worries....
I see his point about them being too powerful...
A few suggestions....

Suggestion #1
You have 4 gem types but a total of 23 gems on the board (based on your legend - i did not count them myself)
So right off the bat, I see that not all gems have equal number of bombardment areas, for 4 does not divide into 23 evenly...

Maybe clear off some spaces - remove some gems... instead of having a gem on every space (all most) just have a few scattered... So maybe drop from 23 gems to 16 gems that would give each gem 4 locations to bombard and open up the map to have 8 additional areas to secure you forces - though in trench mode corridors will still be blockaded with these bombardments - but if I'm not mistaken - it cost troops to bombard - - so the more a player bombards, they hurt themselves equally as they hurt their enemy... So a player focused on bombarding will dwindle their own forces instead of using them to capture more gems for bonuses... Or am I wrong about this? I've only played with bombards once so far so I'm not fully familiar with them...

Suggestion #2
Change the Bombardment targets...
Instead of having them bombard gems and instead of having the temple bombard crystals....

Color the Teleporter statue sets to match the gems...
A Blue, Green, Red, White, Yellow statues sets for teleporting and have the bombardments from the temple and the crystals only focused on the teleporters..

Leaving the gems all along the floor open for safe picking up..

Just a suggestion....


Another idea but has nothing to do with the bombardments except to make entering the temple harder so to gain that bombardment ability more difficult...

on space Eg8 leading up to the temple, maybe place an archway gate or doorway .... Not passable with out a key - then place on AG6 the Key... So the player needs to control space AG6 to enter cross from Eg8 to the temple.

I see that all your monsters but the Acolyte is protecting something...
This will give the Acolyte it's own treasure to protect...

Acolyte gateway to the Key...
Marid gateway to the water crystal
Efreet gateway to the fire crystal
Doo gateway to the earth crystal
Djinn gateway to the air crystal
Iblis gateway to the teleporter to the temple

oh, I was wrong you still have the Ghul that is not guarding anything - oh well - just a suggestion to make entering the temple even more difficult - by adding a key space....


On another note - I like the idea of giving bonuses for controlling monsters... Two ideas for that:

also if your going to change your bombardments to only teleporters and your going to add a monster bonus - then maybe your victory condition should be control ALL Crystals and the Temple - instead of controlling all monsters and the temple....

Idea 1 monster bonus:
Each monster you control raises Bonus:
Control 1 for +1
Control 2 for +2
Control 3 for +4
Control 4 for +8
Control 5 for +16
Control 6 for +32
Control 7 for +64

Idea #2 For Monsters Bonus
The Ghul opens up the Bonuses for the Monsters..
If you control the Ghul then any additional monster you get will give you a Bonus..
(ha ha, now the Ghul has something to protect)

Any and all monsters except Ghul = Zero Bonus (Need Ghul to access monster bonus)
Ghul only = Zero Bonus
Ghul plus 1 additional monster +1
Ghul plus 2 additional monster +2
Ghul plus 3 additional monster +4
Ghul plus 4 additional monster +8
Ghul plus 5 additional monster +16
Ghul plus 6 additional monster +32

I like this second suggestion better myself... Also I tried to make it that if a player does have the chance to gain access to all monsters, even though it is only 8 spaces - they become an equal match to any player that is dominating the board and gathering all the gems... Though the initial monster bonuses are not that strong to off set them from being too powerful too soon...

Just a few ideas...Take them or leave them....

[Blakkrose]

...Suggestion #1
You have 4 gem types but a total of 23 gems on the board (based on your legend - i did not count them myself)
So right off the bat, I see that not all gems have equal number of bombardment areas, for 4 does not divide into 23 evenly...

Truly the gems are 23 for each color, then 92

Maybe clear off some spaces - remove some gems... instead of having a gem on every space (all most) just have a few scattered... So maybe drop from 23 gems to 16 gems that would give each gem 4 locations to bombard and open up the map to have 8 additional areas to secure you forces - though in trench mode corridors will still be blockaded with these bombardments - but if I'm not mistaken - it cost troops to bombard - - so the more a player bombards, they hurt themselves equally as they hurt their enemy... So a player focused on bombarding will dwindle their own forces instead of using them to capture more gems for bonuses... Or am I wrong about this? I've only played with bombards once so far so I'm not fully familiar with them...

You're wrong.
If during you bombardment your dice's score is higher than the opponent you annihilate the territory without losing any troop

Suggestion #2
Change the Bombardment targets...
Instead of having them bombard gems and instead of having the temple bombard crystals....

Color the Teleporter statue sets to match the gems...
A Blue, Green, Red, White, Yellow statues sets for teleporting and have the bombardments from the temple and the crystals only focused on the teleporters..

Leaving the gems all along the floor open for safe picking up..

I dont understand what do you mean

Another idea but has nothing to do with the bombardments except to make entering the temple harder so to gain that bombardment ability more difficult...

on space Eg8 leading up to the temple, maybe place an archway gate or doorway .... Not passable with out a key - then place on AG6 the Key... So the player needs to control space AG6 to enter cross from Eg8 to the temple.

Nice idea!

Any and all monsters except Ghul = Zero Bonus (Need Ghul to access monster bonus)
Ghul only = Zero Bonus
Ghul plus 1 additional monster +1
Ghul plus 2 additional monster +2
Ghul plus 3 additional monster +4
Ghul plus 4 additional monster +8
Ghul plus 5 additional monster +16
Ghul plus 6 additional monster +32

Another nice idea but 32 army are really too much to just 7 territories!
You should control all 23 gems of the same color to have 33 armies!
It would use two different scales of values

[Aleena]

oh, I thought the bonus was for total gems controlled - not based on color...
So if I had 4 red gems, 4 white gems, 4 blue gems, and 4 green gems for a total of 16 gems, then I'd get a +21 bonus...

Oh, they need to be all the same color... Don't like that as much, but I understand it....
I think it would be better just give a +1 per gem (and cut the number on gems in the game by 1/2) or for every 4 gems, no matter what the color....
But that is only my opinion...

For my one suggestion you did not understand, I'll try to make it clearer....

Suggestion 2 about bombardments...

Gems do not get bombarded....
Teleports get bombarded instead...

So...
Water Crystal would bombard only T4a and T4b which are Blue statues of Sphinx - or could be Sphinx made of water crystal

Fire Crystal would bombard only T1a and T1b which are pink statues of a dog - though you might want to make them more redish if you do this system to match the fire stone better...

Earth Stone would bombard T3a and T3b which are statues of Green ram or maybe a ram statue made of earth stone...

Wind Crystal would bombard T5a and T5b which are currently statues of a yellow cat - though If you do this system, they should be change to be white cats..

The Temple Bombards T2a and T2b which are currently Golden or Gilded statues to match the golden Temple...

This will limit the bombardments a lot, and allow secondary passages available if playing a trench game... Though if your willing to move the statues around I think it would be better to have the bombardments as follows:
Water - T5a, T5b
Fire - T4a, T4b
Earth - T3a, T3b
Wind - T1a, T1b
Temple - T2a, T2b

In no way should the Temple ever Bombard T3a and T3b for else it would make the Temple a protected zone once captured in a trench game.... But any other way you wish to connect them would be fine....

This was only a suggestion to make Bombardments less powerful....

[Blakkrose]

oh, I thought the bonus was for total gems controlled - not based on color...
So if I had 4 red gems, 4 white gems, 4 blue gems, and 4 green gems for a total of 16 gems, then I'd get a +21 bonus...

Oh, they need to be all the same color... Don't like that as much, but I understand it....
I think it would be better just give a +1 per gem (and cut the number on gems in the game by 1/2) or for every 4 gems, no matter what the color....

I took The values ​​of the bonus for the gems from the tip of iancanton on page 4 so i do not think to change it.

For my one suggestion you did not understand, I'll try to make it clearer....

Suggestion 2 about bombardments...

Gems do not get bombarded....
Teleports get bombarded instead...

So...

Ok, now I understand your idea.
The thing does not seem exciting.
Is certainly interesting to cause damage to the opponent in terms of bonuses!
I'm editing, in any case, the level bringing the pairs of teleports from 5 to 3 and attempting to move the starting points. Place as soon as possible the result of my work.

I think the right way is to place the starting points in a more balanced way

Meanwhile, I wait for the opinion of koontz1973.

[iancanton]

1. at least double all monsters (bar maybe the ghul and acolyte), as a victory condition, they should be higher neutral count anyway: this makes rushing for the temple less viable and thus the starting position distance imbalance weaker

1. You mean perhaps change 4 Jinn from 5 to 10 (Marid, Dao, Djinn and Efreet) and change Iblis from 10 to 20?

the monsters have no bonus so, if u do this, then they will simply become impassables: no-one will attack most of them in most games because it's easier to eliminate an opponent by killing his troops directly.

2. consider toning down the power of the bombardments:
either give the territory that actually bombards a strong decay (~10 would be a reasonable start)
or create a killer territory that does the bombardment (conditional borders prevent taking it before gaining the area)

this reduces the advantage gainable by rushing to an area with a bombardement (especially powerful in trench or assassin)

of course perhaps everyone else disagrees with my fear that bombard rush matches will happen

2. I prefer the decay of territories that bombard but maybe 10 is too much.
I can not create the killer territores why make it impossible to take the bonus area.

it is worth trying the decay idea.

I could insert a bonus for the control of monsters. This would push not to entrench in the areas from which bombards

the monsters at the moment are completely passive unless someone tries for the victory condition. perhaps an auto-deploy bonus will make them more scary.

ian.

[Blakkrose]

I've finally done it: I found a bit of time to finish the changes to the map.
Thanks to the ideas of Aleena (You're so precious, keep it up ) and the suggestions of Iancanton here is version 8.

I changed some connection between territories and moved some gem.
I entered a decay of 3 armies per turn for territories that can bombard (Water Crystal, Earth Crystal, Fire Crystal, Crystal Air and TJ1) but in doing so the bonus for the crystal areas and the Temple of Jinn would have been futile so I eliminated by inserting in its place a bonus for the control of monsters.
For Iblis + 1 monster get 3 armies,
for Iblis + 2 monsters get 6 armies,
for Iblis + 3 monsters get 9 armies,
for Iblis + 4 monsters get 12 armies,
for Iblis + 5 monsters get 15 armies,
for Iblis + 6 monsters get 18 armies.

I entered a dark gem guarded by Ghul.
Now you can bombard by owning the also the dark gem, so the same ghul.

I put in a Gate to the Temple of Jinn and a Key guarded by Acolyte.
If you do not have the Key you do not have access to the territories TJ4 and TJ5

I deleted 2 pairs of teleports and added some territories without buds, which therefore can not be bombed, near Ghul and the Acolyte.

In this way I complicated things by forcing players to run for the level rather than a defensive position in a crystal areas and bombard anything.

I could drop a gem for color, bringing them from 23 to 22 and, thus creating another 4 territories without gems that can not be bombed, to be placed always near Ghul and Acolyte.

"What do you think?"

I look forward, as always, your opinions and suggestions

Click image to enlarge.

[EricPhail]

Love the addition of the key and gate.

Gemless squares are useful, but I wouldn't add too many (stacking them all in one place is not the best use anyway IMO, bombardment proof rest points on various routes might be better)

May be worth returning the continent type bonuses for the crystal areas (are useful to add to rest of your army, even if not for creating a huge bombard stack)

Start positions:
FG21, WG23 and to a lesser extent Ag18 are too easily trapped by neighbors

FG21's only access to the majority of the board needs Ag15 which is easily blocked from the EG14 start
(poss solution connect T2b to EG17 instead of AG15)

WG23 is blocked at FG9 (if not sooner) by AG 18, both of which are then blocked at WG8 from the FG7 start point
(no start point should be easy to block before the first fork in their path). These 3 are really too close IMO.
Ideas: add a connection between AG10 + Dun1? Make FG7s first link EG4 or 9 instead?
Move one of those starts to the EG22 spur (not neccesarily at the end)?

[iancanton]

the key is a nice touch!

to help players who use the drop-down list to select regions when playing, name the gem regions as Eg01, Eg02 and so on, so that they appear above Eg10 in the list.

does anyone have comments on the clarity of the bombardments in the legend?

ian.

[Blakkrose]

the key is a nice touch!

to help players who use the drop-down list to select regions when playing, name the gem regions as Eg01, Eg02 and so on, so that they appear above Eg10 in the list.

does anyone have comments on the clarity of the bombardments in the legend?

ian.

It will be done as soon as possible
I have to make some changes to the territories, the arrangement of the gems or connections between territories?

[isaiah40]

does anyone have comments on the clarity of the bombardments in the legend?

ian.

I think the description of the bombardments in the legend is very clear. There shouldn't be any excuses for players missing them.

[Aleena]

Maybe you can Title Bombardment differently...
Currently it just says:
Bombardments
And what I think people are looking for after that is only 2 locations Bombard From and To....

So maybe in your case you need to title it like:
Need For Bombardment : Which Crystal Bombards Which Gems

[Blakkrose]

the key is a nice touch!

to help players who use the drop-down list to select regions when playing, name the gem regions as Eg01, Eg02 and so on, so that they appear above Eg10 in the list.

ian.

Done. The names of the territories have been modified as suggested.

I also changed the connection Fg07 him away from Fg09

Click image to enlarge.

[Blakkrose]

...
Start positions:
FG21, WG23 and to a lesser extent Ag18 are too easily trapped by neighbors
...

That's the change that I preferred:

1. I moved Starting Point Eg14 to Eg22
2. I have created a connection between Dun1 and Ag10
3. I deleted the connection between Eg16 and Fg9

I then created a new "Dun" near Acolyte

Click image to enlarge.

[Blakkrose]

Hey, I'm waiting for some news.
Is there anything else I need to change or the map is okay?

[Bruceswar]

all my points are graphic right now, but the red, green, white, yellow and blue laid on the map need to be redone. They just do not fit well. I am not saying I do not like the idea, because I do, but you need to find a better way to make the fit the map. You have a killer looking map, and those colors are just not off to snuff.

[Blakkrose]

all my points are graphic right now, but the red, green, white, yellow and blue laid on the map need to be redone. They just do not fit well. I am not saying I do not like the idea, because I do, but you need to find a better way to make the fit the map. You have a killer looking map, and those colors are just not off to snuff.

You say that the colors do not look good but you do not say why.
Explain your motivation and propose especially in sample solution.
I will be very happy to make the necessary changes

[Bruceswar]

I will see if I can make something up so you can see what I am talking about.

[dolomite13]

In your key when you note how many gems or monsters are needed for the onuses you are using the singular form of the work >Monster" and "Gem" when you have 2 or more it should be the plural form "Monsters" and "Gems".

Because Iblis is required to gain the monster bonus, and the key required to gain access to the temple, are each of those territories equidistant from all starting positions? Or at least within a few territories? It is so hard for me to actually see the territory edges on the map I was having problems counting.

=D13=

[Blakkrose]

In your key when you note how many gems or monsters are needed for the onuses you are using the singular form of the work >Monster" and "Gem" when you have 2 or more it should be the plural form "Monsters" and "Gems".

You're right! Here are the changes to the legend.

Click image to enlarge.

Because Iblis is required to gain the monster bonus, and the key required to gain access to the temple, are each of those territories equidistant from all starting positions? Or at least within a few territories? It is so hard for me to actually see the territory edges on the map I was having problems counting.

I created an image with the calculation of Iblis distances.

Click image to enlarge.

Here is an image with the calculation of Key distances.

Click image to enlarge.

I think I have entered the shorter distances.
Write down your observations

[Blakkrose]

Here's the calculation of distances:

Eg01 - Iblis = 7
Eg01 - Key = 10
Sum = 17

Fg07 - Iblis = 10
Fg07 - Key = 7
Sum = 17

Wg15 - Iblis = 15
Wg15 - Key = 12
Sum = 27

Ag12 - Iblis = 13
Ag12 - Key = 10
Sum = 23

Ag18 - Iblis = 11
Ag18 - key = 8
Sum = 19

Wg23 - Iblis = 15
Wg23 - Key = 12
Sum = 27

Eg22 - Iblis = 19
Eg22 - Key = 16
Sum = 35

Fg21 - Iblis = 13
Fg21 - Key = 16
Sum = 29

From the sum of the distances shows that there is a big imbalance.
Eg01, Fg07 and Ag18 are advantaged while Eg22 and Fg21 are disadvantaged.

Going specifically states that:
- Eg01, Fg07 and Ag18 are too close to Iblis while and Eg22 is too far,
- Eg01, Fg07, Ag12 and Ag18 are too close to Key while Eg22 and Fg21 are too far away.

I could then move Key in Eg01, move Eg01 in Eg05, enter a new teleport with input between Eg22 and Fg21 and output so as not to shorten the distances too and then redo all the calculations.

Do you have other suggestions or start the test?

[AndyDufresne]

This is my first time taking a look at this map, and the first thing that came to my mind, is a feeling of incredible visual busy-ness. At first, I wasn't sure what was causing it, but looking at the maps without the names above, I think the mishmash of region name angles is a contributing factor. I also think the distinct hardness of the road lines, being on an equal visual level and not softened for instance, also probably contributes to a degree as well.

Best of luck with your development.


--Andy