Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby facet on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:00 pm

Thanks for your quick reply DiM

I seem to have found some weirdness. It looks like Krithia is linked to madios and to Sedd el Barr. Am I right?
http://aloe.software.coop/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=b78ac5cfe00789350fabe2e2769a85f3 (link set to expire 20/3.)

This one allowed me to reinforce when I wasn't sure that I should have been able. With my next click, I was able to reinforce from the yellow squared location with 10 units to the territory with the cursor. http://aloe.software.coop/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=d649ee212ad9d8e0e8a53f6db8c478f4 (link set to expire 20/3.)

Both from same map. Not parachute. What am I missing?

[post updated with description further to comment below - thanks Gilligan)
Last edited by facet on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Gilligan on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:07 pm

facet wrote:Thanks for your quick reply DiM

I seem to have found some weirdness. It looks like Krithia is linked to madios and to Sedd el Barr. Am I right?
http://aloe.software.coop/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=b78ac5cfe00789350fabe2e2769a85f3 (link set to expire 20/3.)

This one allowed me to reinforce when I wasn't sure that I should have been able (I did so with the next click). http://aloe.software.coop/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=d649ee212ad9d8e0e8a53f6db8c478f4 (link set to expire 20/3.)

Both from same map. Not parachute. What am I missing?


For your first image, look to the right of the map - "Villages border the next village via roads"

Second, what territories are you talking about?
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby facet on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:11 pm

Ahh, now I fully understand that text. So it is to do with looking very carefully for the wee boxes - the villages! ahem. Thanks Gilligan.

I was able to reinforce from the yellow squared location with 10 units to the territory with the cursor. My apologies for not describing it.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Gilligan on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:15 pm

facet wrote:Ahh, now I fully understand that text. So it is to do with looking very carefully for the wee boxes - the villages! ahem. Thanks Gilligan.

I was able to reinforce from the yellow squared location with 10 units to the territory with the cursor. My apologies for not describing it.


That's what I thought, I just wanted to be sure.

Anyway, look right above the village blurb I just pointed you to. You have Madios and Chanak Kale that border to cross the water.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby facet on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:16 pm

/me facepalm. TY
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Gilligan on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:17 pm

facet wrote:/me facepalm. TY


Haha, no worries. There's a lot going on with this map and it's easy to overlook things. Took me a few minutes myself...
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby *Pixar* on Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:58 am

I like how easy you can eliminate someone by taking their land territories but I do not like how dang confusing the map is and how to get around mostly had trouble finding my way around the northern part once you get onto land off your battleships hard to navigate
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby judge_reinhold on Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:52 pm

I thought I already posted this but I don't see it.
Put some friggin ARROWS to indicate attack crossings. Little "L's" are not standard and not obvious. You would have to search everywhere to find that symbol and see where to attack defend. It's not intuitive. Arrows are obvious and intuitive.

If you're worried about arrows crossing arrows, as would happen in the crossing deep in the channel, don't worry. Seeing something that might be confusing is better than never having a remote idea that something exists at all. If you want an example of arrows crossing, check stalingrad.

Here's the thing, people look at the map first, key second. You look at the key to clarify something you don't understand. Let's say you make your crossings arrows red. People see the arrows and understand what they mean. But if they have any questions, then they look at the key to find out why they are blue. Key says something like, "Blue arrows indicate attacks between land territories on either side of the water". All is clear.

Leave the "L" shaped harbors if you want, but why make people search the coasts for them. I had incredible frustration getting beaten by some farming a-holes who knew the map better than me and they only won because of that. Your map should make it easier for new people to understand it and not get farmed by a-holes.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby biscuit boy on Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:31 pm

A few of the territ's along coast line are a little hard to tell if you can advance out or attack to a adjacent area. I really like that it is the most real life map for how the actual battle took place. Can get bogged down on the beach with those battleships. Wish the D-Day map was more like this.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby judge_reinhold on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:48 pm

biscuit boy wrote:A few of the territ's along coast line are a little hard to tell if you can advance out or attack to a adjacent area. I really like that it is the most real life map for how the actual battle took place. Can get bogged down on the beach with those battleships. Wish the D-Day map was more like this.


biscuit boy is right about that. If you have BOB installed, you can mouse over territories and check. I have no idea how anyone could play this map (or, for example, Das Schloss) without BOB. It would be a near-guaranteed loss.

Perhaps you should add some double-ended arrows for some of those beach territories. The hardest ones are the ones in the mountains, I think. The eyes don't easily notice those tiny breaks in the mountain ridges.

You could move the one-directional arrow for Gendarmere->Lower Suvla down south to the other side of the gun. Then you would have room for a little double-ended arrow between Lower Suvla and Kirich Tepe. Beach Z<->Monash Gully is another one. Maybe Kum Tepe<->Seri Tepe Ridge, Dardanos<->F7, Kizilchilali<->F6 as well.

It seems like some of these maps are only tested with BOB installed. Until BOB functionality is incorporated into the site, the maps should make it visually obvious what attacks what, IMO.
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Leehar on Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:36 pm

I liked the representation by the map of a significant historical event

However, as others mentioned, I didn't like how crucial first-turn advantage was on this map, it's not unusual for players to be eliminated even before they gain an opportunity to play, and if you haven't been killed yet, you still face a significant uphill battle in coming back in 1v1's, despite any strategic nous.


judge_reinhold wrote:It seems like some of these maps are only tested with BOB installed. Until BOB functionality is incorporated into the site, the maps should make it visually obvious what attacks what, IMO.

I thought BOB was incorporated with the recent Panel interface amendment?
http://www.conquerclub.com/player.php?mode=settings
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby ckyrias on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:35 am

like the map a lot. very interestig game play. maybe there is a slight problem with the player going first. if one has good rolls might be gg already! also i think there should be a little better marker regarding the connection of the villages! if it wasn't for BOB it would take me ages to figure it out1
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby biscuit boy on Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:25 am

It's a typical first turn typically wins type of map. Wonder if you can make it that whoever is deployed on spots that are bombarded gets to go first or make the deployment even on who gets those spots.

If you want some fun try the settings of 3 or 4 poly 2 player game with parachute reinforcements....
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Nola_Lifer on Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:51 am

biscuit boy wrote:It's a typical first turn typically wins type of map. Wonder if you can make it that whoever is deployed on spots that are bombarded gets to go first or make the deployment even on who gets those spots.

If you want some fun try the settings of 3 or 4 poly 2 player game with parachute reinforcements....


You still seem to enjoy to play it no?
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby t4mcr53s2 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:22 pm

=D> =D> =D>
hip hip hoorah
very interesting map lots of complexity in the different bombardments deploys for defense, and bottlenecks. and the no land tert elim creitera is brilliant.

have enjoyed all games so far... one of the better news maps with unique features not just basic map abc in a different country

1 vs 1 is always tough on player 2. i wonder if it would be more possible to win as player 2 if no one dropped on the land batteries that elim ships; in fog that would give player 2 the opportunity to stack big take a battery and sink some enemy navy round 3 or so; and also have a could chance if he stacks next to the battery player 1 goes for, by taking it after 1 kills the neutrals
contact chapcrap icepack or rcfritz if time near an hour please
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Steiner75 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:51 am

Nola_Lifer wrote:
biscuit boy wrote:It's a typical first turn typically wins type of map. Wonder if you can make it that whoever is deployed on spots that are bombarded gets to go first or make the deployment even on who gets those spots.

If you want some fun try the settings of 3 or 4 poly 2 player game with parachute reinforcements....


You still seem to enjoy to play it no?


I must admit, I thought that first turn represents a huge advantage, but upon checking my games I was probably suffering from a confirmation bias.

Total Games completed 33 (Team games with 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4, some polymorphic)

out of these: 15 won by the team/player moving first and 18 won by the team moving second. So in conclusion no indication that it is a "first turn typically wins" map.

I really like the map as it makes for exellent gameplay with chances to turn around "lost" situations.

Great job by cairnswk!!!

Only one thing I am suggesting to change: If possible, the same team / player should not hold both Gendarmerie and Kum Kale with the initial drop. That really makes for too much of an uphill fight for the team not in posession of these two pieces of real estate.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby dgz345 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:32 pm

so i really liked the map itself it looks very nice game playwise i like that everything comes from the starting positions and you want to liberate the island.

the dislike would be that there is a lot of neutrals. but thats to make the objective easier
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:51 am

Steiner75 wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:
biscuit boy wrote:It's a typical first turn typically wins type of map. Wonder if you can make it that whoever is deployed on spots that are bombarded gets to go first or make the deployment even on who gets those spots.

If you want some fun try the settings of 3 or 4 poly 2 player game with parachute reinforcements....


You still seem to enjoy to play it no?


I must admit, I thought that first turn represents a huge advantage, but upon checking my games I was probably suffering from a confirmation bias.

Total Games completed 33 (Team games with 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4, some polymorphic)

out of these: 15 won by the team/player moving first and 18 won by the team moving second. So in conclusion no indication that it is a "first turn typically wins" map.

I really like the map as it makes for exellent gameplay with chances to turn around "lost" situations.

Great job by cairnswk!!!

Only one thing I am suggesting to change: If possible, the same team / player should not hold both Gendarmerie and Kum Kale with the initial drop. That really makes for too much of an uphill fight for the team not in posession of these two pieces of real estate.

Good to see someone actually look at the numbers and see!
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Steiner75 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:33 am

Dukasaur wrote:
Steiner75 wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:
biscuit boy wrote:It's a typical first turn typically wins type of map. Wonder if you can make it that whoever is deployed on spots that are bombarded gets to go first or make the deployment even on who gets those spots.

If you want some fun try the settings of 3 or 4 poly 2 player game with parachute reinforcements....


You still seem to enjoy to play it no?


I must admit, I thought that first turn represents a huge advantage, but upon checking my games I was probably suffering from a confirmation bias.

Total Games completed 33 (Team games with 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4, some polymorphic)

out of these: 15 won by the team/player moving first and 18 won by the team moving second. So in conclusion no indication that it is a "first turn typically wins" map.

I really like the map as it makes for exellent gameplay with chances to turn around "lost" situations.

Great job by cairnswk!!!

Only one thing I am suggesting to change: If possible, the same team / player should not hold both Gendarmerie and Kum Kale with the initial drop. That really makes for too much of an uphill fight for the team not in posession of these two pieces of real estate.

Good to see someone actually look at the numbers and see!


Well, yes, off course... remember, the plural of "anectdotes" is NOT "data" :D
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Frogmanx82 on Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:04 pm

Seems like it would be more fair if the territories that can bombard landing ships always start out neutral. Especially in the south were once the landing ship is lost, you can't get it back.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Steiner75 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:09 am

Frogmanx82 wrote:Seems like it would be more fair if the territories that can bombard landing ships always start out neutral. Especially in the south were once the landing ship is lost, you can't get it back.


Well, the Artillery Pieces certainly did not start off as neutrals in 1915, even though many blokes from OZ and NZ would have considered that to be more "fair"...

Nevertheless, holding Kum Kale AND / OR L06 Landing ship / Halil-Eli does represent a huge advantage, I aggree.
One way to alleviate that situation would be to assign Kum Kale and L06 / Halil-Eli to different teams, or in case that is not possible, to at least reduce the number of neutrals on In-Tepe and F5 from 6 to 3
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Frogmanx82 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:23 am

I think it would add strategy to the straights if MS4 to MS9 also got the landing ship bonus or at least a 1 autodeploy. Most games the straights don't even come into play. There is just not the incentive.

Still think kum kale has to start neutral. Its just too key. You should have to earn the right to use it.
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Nola_Lifer on Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:30 am

Think this map is perfect. Hate to see it changed like what happened to cricket because so many complained because they didn't know how to play properly. I think some games will be totally unfair drop but that will be few. MS1-3 do need an incentive to be used. Make make the other spots that don't revert to neutral +1 or +2 but other than that I think the map is pretty solid. Played enough games to see that despite what may seem a bad drop you can work through it.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby j1mathman on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:41 am

Enjoy this map, and agree with Nola and Frogman about Kum Kale and the M(S)1-9.

Dropping Kum Kale is an advantage, but it with the opening bonus being small, I don't think it is overpowered. Making In Tape less of a neutral value would be a mod to make a counterattack on Kale possible earlier.

M(S)1-9 is a little confusing it's a really long entry so I've left my Landing Craft sit there unused for several turns. The aa guns on the shore in the south are interesting, but i hardly ever use those, even if my opponent comes out in the later rounds, usually they are 1s and not important anyway. You could also shorten the landing area, making it longer arrows, and just 2 neutrals between you and the shore? Maybe the MS 1,2,3 could hit M3, then go to MS8 and 9? M3 could be a killer neutral for 3 landing craft, Das Schloss-style? Anyway, I just think that couquering 5 neutrals (and 2 of them being 2-neuts and killer neutral) to get to the shore is a little excessive, especially when the other craft are only 1 (or 0) neutral away. Not sure if this is historically accurate shortening the approach on these, but I'd much rather drop on other Landing craft than MS 1,2,or3.

I hope this map passes beta testing soon! Want to use it in clan wars hah.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby iancanton on Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:50 pm

Steiner75 wrote:
biscuit boy wrote:It's a typical first turn typically wins type of map.

I must admit, I thought that first turn represents a huge advantage, but upon checking my games I was probably suffering from a confirmation bias.

Total Games completed 33 (Team games with 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4, some polymorphic)

out of these: 15 won by the team/player moving first and 18 won by the team moving second. So in conclusion no indication that it is a "first turn typically wins" map.

I really like the map as it makes for exellent gameplay with chances to turn around "lost" situations.

Great job by cairnswk!!!

of 35 completed 1v1, standard, auto-placement, sequential, no spoils, chained, fog, non-trench games with unlimited rounds, from Game 13580110 to Game 14047345, the first player to move won 28 games, while the second player won only 7 games. the most popular settings therefore show a significant first-turn advantage.

Steiner75 wrote:Only one thing I am suggesting to change: If possible, the same team / player should not hold both Gendarmerie and Kum Kale with the initial drop. That really makes for too much of an uphill fight for the team not in posession of these two pieces of real estate.

Steiner75 wrote:
Frogmanx82 wrote:Seems like it would be more fair if the territories that can bombard landing ships always start out neutral. Especially in the south were once the landing ship is lost, you can't get it back.

Well, the Artillery Pieces certainly did not start off as neutrals in 1915, even though many blokes from OZ and NZ would have considered that to be more "fair"...

Nevertheless, holding Kum Kale AND / OR L06 Landing ship / Halil-Eli does represent a huge advantage, I aggree.
One way to alleviate that situation would be to assign Kum Kale and L06 / Halil-Eli to different teams, or in case that is not possible, to at least reduce the number of neutrals on In-Tepe and F5 from 6 to 3

of the 35 games i analysed above, the same player started with both gendarmerie and kum kale in 13 games. this player lost 9 and won 4. of the 9 games lost, this player also started with gaba tepe. the high loss rate is not because the coastal batteries suffer from an inherent handicap, but because they are each paired with one of the ineffective minesweepers. i'm fairly confident that cairnswk, as an aussie who knows his history, will not be assigning neutral starts to the coastal batteries.

Frogmanx82 wrote:I think it would add strategy to the straights if MS4 to MS9 also got the landing ship bonus or at least a 1 autodeploy. Most games the straights don't even come into play. There is just not the incentive.

Still think kum kale has to start neutral. Its just too key. You should have to earn the right to use it.

Nola_Lifer wrote:Think this map is perfect. Hate to see it changed like what happened to cricket because so many complained because they didn't know how to play properly. I think some games will be totally unfair drop but that will be few. MS1-3 do need an incentive to be used. Make make the other spots that don't revert to neutral +1 or +2 but other than that I think the map is pretty solid. Played enough games to see that despite what may seem a bad drop you can work through it.

j1mathman wrote:Enjoy this map, and agree with Nola and Frogman about Kum Kale and the M(S)1-9.

Dropping Kum Kale is an advantage, but it with the opening bonus being small, I don't think it is overpowered. Making In Tape less of a neutral value would be a mod to make a counterattack on Kale possible earlier.

M(S)1-9 is a little confusing it's a really long entry so I've left my Landing Craft sit there unused for several turns. The aa guns on the shore in the south are interesting, but i hardly ever use those, even if my opponent comes out in the later rounds, usually they are 1s and not important anyway. You could also shorten the landing area, making it longer arrows, and just 2 neutrals between you and the shore? Maybe the MS 1,2,3 could hit M3, then go to MS8 and 9?

of the 35 games i analysed above, the player who started with kum kale won 18 games and lost 17 games, which shows no advantage. as mentioned above, i believe this is because the player who starts with kum kale is handicapped by also having a minesweeper. we shall not be changing the minesweeper attack routes, which are well-established and not defective per se. however, adding a +2 auto-deploy bonus to the minesweeper locations ms4 to ms9 is well worth considering, needing only a one-character change to the legend and no change to the map itself.

i especially recommend that we reduce the first-turn advantage by increasing the neutrals on 12 of the landing beaches from n3 to n4 and on l06 from n6 to n7, which stops so many of the beaches from being overrun before player two has even had a turn.

ian. :)
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