Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Steiner75 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:09 am

Frogmanx82 wrote:Seems like it would be more fair if the territories that can bombard landing ships always start out neutral. Especially in the south were once the landing ship is lost, you can't get it back.


Well, the Artillery Pieces certainly did not start off as neutrals in 1915, even though many blokes from OZ and NZ would have considered that to be more "fair"...

Nevertheless, holding Kum Kale AND / OR L06 Landing ship / Halil-Eli does represent a huge advantage, I aggree.
One way to alleviate that situation would be to assign Kum Kale and L06 / Halil-Eli to different teams, or in case that is not possible, to at least reduce the number of neutrals on In-Tepe and F5 from 6 to 3
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Frogmanx82 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:23 am

I think it would add strategy to the straights if MS4 to MS9 also got the landing ship bonus or at least a 1 autodeploy. Most games the straights don't even come into play. There is just not the incentive.

Still think kum kale has to start neutral. Its just too key. You should have to earn the right to use it.
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Nola_Lifer on Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:30 am

Think this map is perfect. Hate to see it changed like what happened to cricket because so many complained because they didn't know how to play properly. I think some games will be totally unfair drop but that will be few. MS1-3 do need an incentive to be used. Make make the other spots that don't revert to neutral +1 or +2 but other than that I think the map is pretty solid. Played enough games to see that despite what may seem a bad drop you can work through it.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby j1mathman on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:41 am

Enjoy this map, and agree with Nola and Frogman about Kum Kale and the M(S)1-9.

Dropping Kum Kale is an advantage, but it with the opening bonus being small, I don't think it is overpowered. Making In Tape less of a neutral value would be a mod to make a counterattack on Kale possible earlier.

M(S)1-9 is a little confusing it's a really long entry so I've left my Landing Craft sit there unused for several turns. The aa guns on the shore in the south are interesting, but i hardly ever use those, even if my opponent comes out in the later rounds, usually they are 1s and not important anyway. You could also shorten the landing area, making it longer arrows, and just 2 neutrals between you and the shore? Maybe the MS 1,2,3 could hit M3, then go to MS8 and 9? M3 could be a killer neutral for 3 landing craft, Das Schloss-style? Anyway, I just think that couquering 5 neutrals (and 2 of them being 2-neuts and killer neutral) to get to the shore is a little excessive, especially when the other craft are only 1 (or 0) neutral away. Not sure if this is historically accurate shortening the approach on these, but I'd much rather drop on other Landing craft than MS 1,2,or3.

I hope this map passes beta testing soon! Want to use it in clan wars hah.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby iancanton on Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:50 pm

Steiner75 wrote:
biscuit boy wrote:It's a typical first turn typically wins type of map.

I must admit, I thought that first turn represents a huge advantage, but upon checking my games I was probably suffering from a confirmation bias.

Total Games completed 33 (Team games with 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4, some polymorphic)

out of these: 15 won by the team/player moving first and 18 won by the team moving second. So in conclusion no indication that it is a "first turn typically wins" map.

I really like the map as it makes for exellent gameplay with chances to turn around "lost" situations.

Great job by cairnswk!!!

of 35 completed 1v1, standard, auto-placement, sequential, no spoils, chained, fog, non-trench games with unlimited rounds, from Game 13580110 to Game 14047345, the first player to move won 28 games, while the second player won only 7 games. the most popular settings therefore show a significant first-turn advantage.

Steiner75 wrote:Only one thing I am suggesting to change: If possible, the same team / player should not hold both Gendarmerie and Kum Kale with the initial drop. That really makes for too much of an uphill fight for the team not in posession of these two pieces of real estate.

Steiner75 wrote:
Frogmanx82 wrote:Seems like it would be more fair if the territories that can bombard landing ships always start out neutral. Especially in the south were once the landing ship is lost, you can't get it back.

Well, the Artillery Pieces certainly did not start off as neutrals in 1915, even though many blokes from OZ and NZ would have considered that to be more "fair"...

Nevertheless, holding Kum Kale AND / OR L06 Landing ship / Halil-Eli does represent a huge advantage, I aggree.
One way to alleviate that situation would be to assign Kum Kale and L06 / Halil-Eli to different teams, or in case that is not possible, to at least reduce the number of neutrals on In-Tepe and F5 from 6 to 3

of the 35 games i analysed above, the same player started with both gendarmerie and kum kale in 13 games. this player lost 9 and won 4. of the 9 games lost, this player also started with gaba tepe. the high loss rate is not because the coastal batteries suffer from an inherent handicap, but because they are each paired with one of the ineffective minesweepers. i'm fairly confident that cairnswk, as an aussie who knows his history, will not be assigning neutral starts to the coastal batteries.

Frogmanx82 wrote:I think it would add strategy to the straights if MS4 to MS9 also got the landing ship bonus or at least a 1 autodeploy. Most games the straights don't even come into play. There is just not the incentive.

Still think kum kale has to start neutral. Its just too key. You should have to earn the right to use it.

Nola_Lifer wrote:Think this map is perfect. Hate to see it changed like what happened to cricket because so many complained because they didn't know how to play properly. I think some games will be totally unfair drop but that will be few. MS1-3 do need an incentive to be used. Make make the other spots that don't revert to neutral +1 or +2 but other than that I think the map is pretty solid. Played enough games to see that despite what may seem a bad drop you can work through it.

j1mathman wrote:Enjoy this map, and agree with Nola and Frogman about Kum Kale and the M(S)1-9.

Dropping Kum Kale is an advantage, but it with the opening bonus being small, I don't think it is overpowered. Making In Tape less of a neutral value would be a mod to make a counterattack on Kale possible earlier.

M(S)1-9 is a little confusing it's a really long entry so I've left my Landing Craft sit there unused for several turns. The aa guns on the shore in the south are interesting, but i hardly ever use those, even if my opponent comes out in the later rounds, usually they are 1s and not important anyway. You could also shorten the landing area, making it longer arrows, and just 2 neutrals between you and the shore? Maybe the MS 1,2,3 could hit M3, then go to MS8 and 9?

of the 35 games i analysed above, the player who started with kum kale won 18 games and lost 17 games, which shows no advantage. as mentioned above, i believe this is because the player who starts with kum kale is handicapped by also having a minesweeper. we shall not be changing the minesweeper attack routes, which are well-established and not defective per se. however, adding a +2 auto-deploy bonus to the minesweeper locations ms4 to ms9 is well worth considering, needing only a one-character change to the legend and no change to the map itself.

i especially recommend that we reduce the first-turn advantage by increasing the neutrals on 12 of the landing beaches from n3 to n4 and on l06 from n6 to n7, which stops so many of the beaches from being overrun before player two has even had a turn.

ian. :)
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:44 pm

iancanton wrote:...
i especially recommend that we reduce the first-turn advantage by increasing the neutrals on 12 of the landing beaches from n3 to n4 and on l06 from n6 to n7, which stops so many of the beaches from being overrun before player two has even had a turn.

ian. :)


ian. i'll make this adjustment shortly
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby loutil on Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:56 pm

First, let me say, this is one of the best maps on this site. It is tactically interesting and requires thinking throughout the game. Well done. I have played the map 16 times and when this last game finishes I will be 15 - 1 on this map :). However, I have had absurd luck which makes it hard for me to judge my skills. In 16 games I or my team have gone first 12 times. Further, I have started with Kum Kale (what I believe to be the most important tert on the map) 12 times and the other 4 games it was neutral. 5 times I have started with Kum Kale and Gendarmerie...

My only critical comment is MS1-3. They are basically a single use option and then only after 7 - 9 rounds. The neutral resets make it impossible to use them again. This seems unbalanced relative to the rest of the map. It is clearly a disadvantage to start with 2 or even possibly 3 of them when compared to the other +2 drops. My suggestion would be to either make them stronger ( maybe a +3 each round ) or consider eliminating the neutral reset. Unbalanced drops are a part of the game but why have it so the drop is unbalanced every game when playing teams?
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby cairnswk on Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:21 pm

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:...
i especially recommend that we reduce the first-turn advantage by increasing the neutrals on 12 of the landing beaches from n3 to n4 and on l06 from n6 to n7, which stops so many of the beaches from being overrun before player two has even had a turn.

ian. :)


ian. i'll make this adjustment shortly


Here is the adjusted file.

08Gallipoli.xml
(44.57 KiB) Downloaded 9 times


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Start Image adjusted on FP.
Apologies for the somewhat obscure text, but CD X4 works slightly differently in Win8.1 v XP
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby iancanton on Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:04 pm

loutil wrote:However, I have had absurd luck which makes it hard for me to judge my skills. In 16 games I or my team have gone first 12 times. Further, I have started with Kum Kale (what I believe to be the most important tert on the map) 12 times and the other 4 games it was neutral. 5 times I have started with Kum Kale and Gendarmerie...

My only critical comment is MS1-3. They are basically a single use option and then only after 7 - 9 rounds. The neutral resets make it impossible to use them again. This seems unbalanced relative to the rest of the map. It is clearly a disadvantage to start with 2 or even possibly 3 of them when compared to the other +2 drops.

loutil, have u noticed that kum kale is always paired with ms3, so that the two offset each other? similarly, gendarmerie is paired with ms1 and gaba tepe with ms2.

cairns, have u decided against adding auto-deploy bonuses to the minesweeper locations ms4 to ms9?

did i really ask u to increase the kk beach neutrals from n6 to n7, thereby giving even more protection to kum kale? that does not seem like a good idea now and the original n6 looks better. the remaining 12 landing beaches going from n3 to n4 is a good move.

there is a mistake on both of the map images and the xml: the map images show nibruseni point and the xml has nubresi point, while the actual name is nibrunesi point.

http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/2visiting/w ... lkers.html
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... 23546.html

is it my imagination or is the final e of kiretch tepe raised slightly on the small map? this does not happen on the large map.

ian. :)
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby cairnswk on Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:38 pm

iancanton wrote:cairns, have u decided against adding auto-deploy bonuses to the minesweeper locations ms4 to ms9?
get back to you on that :-)

did i really ask u to increase the kk beach neutrals from n6 to n7, thereby giving even more protection to kum kale? that does not seem like a good idea now and the original n6 looks better. the remaining 12 landing beaches going from n3 to n4 is a good move.

no. but the instruction was L06 from n6 to n7, and i was unsure as l06 is not n6, so i thought you meant KK Beach.
Please clarify and i will adjust where necessary
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby pamoa on Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:04 am

is it just me or the map doesn't upload for all
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Sirius Kase on Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:47 am

this map isn't loading. I noticed it is in Beta, has someone been working with it lately?

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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby loutil on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:46 am

iancanton wrote:
loutil wrote:However, I have had absurd luck which makes it hard for me to judge my skills. In 16 games I or my team have gone first 12 times. Further, I have started with Kum Kale (what I believe to be the most important tert on the map) 12 times and the other 4 games it was neutral. 5 times I have started with Kum Kale and Gendarmerie...

My only critical comment is MS1-3. They are basically a single use option and then only after 7 - 9 rounds. The neutral resets make it impossible to use them again. This seems unbalanced relative to the rest of the map. It is clearly a disadvantage to start with 2 or even possibly 3 of them when compared to the other +2 drops.

loutil, have u noticed that kum kale is always paired with ms3, so that the two offset each other? similarly, gendarmerie is paired with ms1 and gaba tepe with ms2.



ian. :)

I had not realized this but it only mitigates the issue somewhat. You can easily be taken off Gendarmerie and Gaba Tepe and still be stuck with MS1-3. Adding the auto deploys to that area would certainly help but those terts will still have limited value beyond the first use. Forting is VERY important on this map and it could be hard to use a fort on that area unless you cleared all neutral resets. Dice fail at one destroys the entire turn and would require another 4-5 turns to rebuild so you could "try again".
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:02 am

cairns, before your break you seemed to be seriously considering my suggestion, but since you're returned it seems that there is no mention of it. Has it been completely forgotten in the interim?
cairnswk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
delibekir wrote:I have played several games with this map and I feel like Kum Kale bombarder is too strong to begin the game with. Whenever a team has Kum Kale initially, they easily secure the south west of the map and usually win. More importantly, opponent's L ships in south-west can be bombarded which cuts their income (especially in non-escalating games).

What do you think?

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Earlier on some people thought that Gendarmerie was overpowered. I disagree, and with careful husbanding of the troops on the battleship, even if someone starts with Gendarmerie and gets a lucky bunch of bombardments, the advantage can be overcome.

Kum Kale is different, because most of the SW landing boats have no battleship support. Sometimes a lucky start that includes Kum Kale is difficult to break, indeed. I'm wondering if L2, 3, 4, and 5 could start with 1 troop more? Not L1, because it has battleship support, and not L6 because it would just make it easy to take Kum Kale and pass the problem to someone else.

Anyway, it's not a huge thing, but maybe a tiny tweak is possible.


Appreciate your request for that tweak, Dukasaur.
I'd like to hear from others though if they think the same. :)
Also, i must point out, that in the real battle, a lot of the fighting in that Cape Helles region was historically twarted and didn't last long, the objectives of capturing the forts was never reached. In some ways, and in some games that can reflect the difficulty of that fighting.


This last change, of course, has made the situation worse, although it looks as if that's been already acknowledged.
iancanton wrote:
did i really ask u to increase the kk beach neutrals from n6 to n7, thereby giving even more protection to kum kale? that does not seem like a good idea now and the original n6 looks better. the remaining 12 landing beaches going from n3 to n4 is a good move.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby badata2d on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:30 am

Not sure if something changed on this map in the last couple of days, but the map will no longer render on an iPad. Just shows the troop counts, but the map is no longer there in the background
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby loutil on Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:02 pm

After studying the map a bit more it would only require that MS4-5 be +1 auto deploy to make that area more useful and an effective part of the game.
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Sirius Kase on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:51 pm

Started working again for me. What a relief, I was scared I'd have to take my turn blind, but it started working just in time.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby iancanton on Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:03 am

Steiner75 wrote:One way to alleviate that situation would be to assign Kum Kale and L06 / Halil-Eli to different teams, or in case that is not possible, to at least reduce the number of neutrals on In-Tepe and F5 from 6 to 3

restoring kk beach from n7 to n6 and reducing in tepe from n6 to n3 might do the trick.

although i cannot speak for cairns, i did forget about dukasaur's suggestion of increasing some landing craft by 1 troop in the long intervening period and have not taken this into consideration.

ian. :)
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:38 am

iancanton wrote:
Steiner75 wrote:One way to alleviate that situation would be to assign Kum Kale and L06 / Halil-Eli to different teams, or in case that is not possible, to at least reduce the number of neutrals on In-Tepe and F5 from 6 to 3

restoring kk beach from n7 to n6 and reducing in tepe from n6 to n3 might do the trick.

although i cannot speak for cairns, i did forget about dukasaur's suggestion of increasing some landing craft by 1 troop in the long intervening period and have not taken this into consideration.

ian. :)


So wanting to accommodate dukasaur's suggestion and fix what was mis-assumed by me from you ian, what is the final alteration for this. I want to get this wrapped up now. Not be dithering around with it forever lest we could go on and on and on...please provide something concrete i.e. b & w :)
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby conquerhero on Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:59 am

Question: If a player has no presence on the right side of the Dardanelles Narrows & also loses position in the Narrows itself, how does that player ever get to the right side?
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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:34 pm

conquerhero wrote:Question: If a player has no presence on the right side of the Dardanelles Narrows & also loses position in the Narrows itself, how does that player ever get to the right side?

There are two points where the Narrows can be crossed. They are marked with a symbol that looks like a carpenter's square, which I assume represents piers.

One crossing is from Madios to Chanak Kale. The other is Tekke Burnu to In Teppe.
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby iancanton on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:39 pm

cairnswk wrote:please provide something concrete i.e. b & w :)

this will happen in several days' time, after i return from my travels and can analyse maps properly on a pc. watch this space!

ian. :)
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Re: Re: WWI: Gallipoli [21.9.13] V38 (p22) - BETA

Postby cairnswk on Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:29 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:please provide something concrete i.e. b & w :)

this will happen in several days' time, after i return from my travels and can analyse maps properly on a pc. watch this space!

ian. :)


Thanks ian. :)
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