The Conquer 500

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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:11 pm

As you noted the bonus for yellow is actually correct ... there is no standard territory bonus ... or at least there should not be... However there is also a minimum bonus of +3 for territories regardless.

Red is indeed a bug that should be fixed shortly.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Thu May 02, 2013 8:36 pm

Update happened!!!

All bonuses seem to be working as intended now

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby waauw on Fri May 03, 2013 5:26 pm

like that the bugs are gone, however 2 remarks:
  • why remove the bonus for all pieces of 1 pit equipment?
  • and are you gonna add a loopback to not get stuck in the pit equipment?
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Fri May 03, 2013 7:45 pm

waauw wrote:like that the bugs are gone, however 2 remarks:
  • why remove the bonus for all pieces of 1 pit equipment?
  • and are you gonna add a loopback to not get stuck in the pit equipment?


It was never intended that all pit equipment get a bonus just for holding 1 of them. It put the focus on the pits and not on the track where I intended it.

As for a loopback ... well it has been discussed.

I have a few thoughts on pit equipment that might help.

  • 3 of a single equipment could be changed to grant you another bonus ... maybe +2 ... this way individual pieces are 0 but sets across and down grant bonuses and take the pit equipment from 15 bonus for holding the while thing to 25.
  • 3 of a single piece of equipment could open a route to attack the pit row from that piece of equipment.
  • Would changing it so that all pit equipment can assault all other pit equipment help in the case that a pit crew gets nuked out.

But first lets see how the games play out and what feedback we can garner from the latest changes.

=D=
Last edited by dolomite13 on Fri May 03, 2013 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby isaiah40 on Fri May 03, 2013 7:49 pm

Probably not a good idea, but I'll throw it there anyways. If people are concerned about not getting back to their Pit Crew, can you have the Pit Equipment assault the Pit Crew??
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Fri May 03, 2013 7:50 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Probably not a good idea, but I'll throw it there anyways. If people are concerned about not getting back to their Pit Crew, can you have the Pit Equipment assault the Pit Crew??


It might be a good idea if we add a conditional border that links the pit equipment back to the crew as long as you control a car condition (fuel, tires or engine) that way we have a way of knowing which crew is yours. However if you lose all of your car and your crew then too bad for you.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby isaiah40 on Fri May 03, 2013 7:53 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:Probably not a good idea, but I'll throw it there anyways. If people are concerned about not getting back to their Pit Crew, can you have the Pit Equipment assault the Pit Crew??


It might be a good idea if we add a conditional border that links the pit equipment back to the crew as long as you control a car condition (fuel, tires or engine) that way we have a way of knowing which crew is yours. However if you lose all of your car and your crew then too bad for you.

=D=

This could be a good way to go.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby waauw on Sat May 04, 2013 12:57 pm

well gotta hand it to ya, you are succesfull in making the games more fair at the start. Don't think it matters who begins first now.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Wed May 15, 2013 5:45 pm

So far in the games I have played it seems more balanced off the start.

I am still about 50% sure that the pit should remain as it is and 50% of the opinion it could use some tweaks. Anyone have any feedback about this?

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby thehippo8 on Wed May 15, 2013 7:38 pm

Just as long as there are no dead ends then I'm happy.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Wed May 15, 2013 9:36 pm

thehippo8 wrote:Just as long as there are no dead ends then I'm happy.


Currently we still have dead ends in the pits. I am still thinking that the pits need a way out... I am seriously considering "hold 3 of a given pit equipment and you can assault the pit row from those locations" ... It is a way out but conditional on holding territories.

I also think the pit bonus is a little weak and no-spoils games seem to get bogged down a lot. I was considering +2 if you hold all 3 of a given pit equipment.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby thehippo8 on Wed May 15, 2013 9:47 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:Just as long as there are no dead ends then I'm happy.


Currently we still have dead ends in the pits. I am still thinking that the pits need a way out... I am seriously considering "hold 3 of a given pit equipment and you can assault the pit row from those locations" ... It is a way out but conditional on holding territories.

I also think the pit bonus is a little weak and no-spoils games seem to get bogged down a lot. I was considering +2 if you hold all 3 of a given pit equipment.

=D=

I like that idea ... I think it needs to be quite hard to get back into the game ... but just not impossible. Your suggestion works for me.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Thu May 16, 2013 5:07 pm

Just thinking out loud here ... hoping for a sanity check...

=======================================================================

Bonuses

When we look at the two half's of the map. Pits and Track it currently breaks down as this.

Track - 10 segments (20), 1 location in each segment (40) or a max total of 60 troops.

Pits - One Crew (2 auto), One whole car (5), All pit equipment (15) or a max total of 22 troops.
*Note that you can start with 2 crew so that would add 7 more for a total 29.

If we add the proposed bonus structure change it would add 10 possible troops to the pit side making the max 32/39.

Does that sound like enough of a bonus?

==================================================================

Dead Ends - Pits

I think adding a conditional border based on holding some combination in the pits is a good idea.

However the question remains as to what that should be. It is quite easy to take over a single column in the pits (ie all of the tools) as they are adjacent to one another. So should that be the trigger? And what should it trigger? I was considering making that specific column open to assault the pit row.

But what if we instead went with a harder to accomplish one of each piece of equipment to unlock the connection to pit row but unlock all of your pit equipment to assault the pit row when you have accomplished this.

Alternately or in addition holding all 3 tires could unlock the ability to assault your car's tires from those spaces (this would be the same for engine and fuel). However it would also require you hold a crew or the car to identify which car you could attack. I am less inclined to move towards this solution for the dead end of the pit equipment.

Any Thoughts?

===================================================================

Thanx

D
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby GeeksAreMyPeeps on Wed May 22, 2013 9:25 pm

I have a question regarding the degrading car conditions. I've noticed on other maps that if degrading positions are at 1 when your turn begins, they don't drop out to neutral but stay at 1. Is that the case here? If so, is the only disadvantage to not loading them up that you're more susceptible to attack from the pit equipment? Apologies if this is not the appropriate place for these questions. I'm new to the site and still poking to see where everything is.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Thu May 23, 2013 12:12 am

GeeksAreMyPeeps wrote:I have a question regarding the degrading car conditions. I've noticed on other maps that if degrading positions are at 1 when your turn begins, they don't drop out to neutral but stay at 1. Is that the case here? If so, is the only disadvantage to not loading them up that you're more susceptible to attack from the pit equipment? Apologies if this is not the appropriate place for these questions. I'm new to the site and still poking to see where everything is.


You are correct. They decay 1 per turn till they reach 1 and the only reason to load em up is because all 3 together are a +5 bonus and they can indeed be bombarded by the pit equipment..

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby Woltato on Thu May 23, 2013 5:35 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:Just as long as there are no dead ends then I'm happy.


Currently we still have dead ends in the pits. I am still thinking that the pits need a way out... I am seriously considering "hold 3 of a given pit equipment and you can assault the pit row from those locations" ... It is a way out but conditional on holding territories.

I also think the pit bonus is a little weak and no-spoils games seem to get bogged down a lot. I was considering +2 if you hold all 3 of a given pit equipment.

=D=


I think you could just link the pits to pit row as a 1-way attack. it's a 20 neutral reset so it's not an easy way out anyway. This would also add an extra tactical dimension to the map when an opponent is trapped in the pits and you need to get onto the track. ie attacking pit row will let them escape more easily.

No spoils games always get bogged down anyway but an extra pit bonus would be good. These territories are highly vulnerable to attack from lots of different places so I would suggest more than a 2 bonus would be appropriate.

This is a nice map. Quite tactical but not too complicated. Great work.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Thu May 23, 2013 6:07 pm

I like the suggestion of linking all pit equipment to the pit row. With that 20 reset it would keep them clogged there till someone decided to break that down. I have noticed that once someone takes pit row everyone follows them back onto the track.

I think there are a few ways to go with pit equipment bonuses...

We could have +3 for 3 of the same pit equipment. I know that's an easier bonus to grab because they are connected to one another but that would bump up the overall pit bonus. So instead of +15 for the entire pits it would be +30

Another option is +2 for 3 of same equipment and an additional +15 for holding all pit equipment which would make it +40 and more on par with the big track bonus.

And a final option that might make people really fight in the pit equipment area would be to have a +5 synergy bonus for each full set of all 5 pit equipment. So the entire pits would grant +30.

Still not sure but I know I want to increase the current +15 for the entire pits to at least 30 I am just not certain which of these would give that bonus without changing the overall strategy too much and without taking focus away from the track.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby Woltato on Fri May 24, 2013 4:18 am

dolomite13 wrote:I like the suggestion of linking all pit equipment to the pit row. With that 20 reset it would keep them clogged there till someone decided to break that down. I have noticed that once someone takes pit row everyone follows them back onto the track.

I think there are a few ways to go with pit equipment bonuses...

We could have +3 for 3 of the same pit equipment. I know that's an easier bonus to grab because they are connected to one another but that would bump up the overall pit bonus. So instead of +15 for the entire pits it would be +30

Another option is +2 for 3 of same equipment and an additional +15 for holding all pit equipment which would make it +40 and more on par with the big track bonus.

And a final option that might make people really fight in the pit equipment area would be to have a +5 synergy bonus for each full set of all 5 pit equipment. So the entire pits would grant +30.

Still not sure but I know I want to increase the current +15 for the entire pits to at least 30 I am just not certain which of these would give that bonus without changing the overall strategy too much and without taking focus away from the track.

=D=


I can't imagine that the entire pits bonus will ever be much of a factor. It's almost half the board so by the time a player has all of those territories secured they're almost certain to have the game won anyway.

The 40 track bonus is a nice idea though. Doubt anyone would be allowed to take it during a sunny game but it's one that might go unnoticed under fog.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby Woltato on Fri May 24, 2013 5:45 pm

Played a couple more games on this map now and I like the fact that it's nice and open. I'm wondering though if maybe it's a bit too open with the winners circle being accessible from anywhere on the track. Just throwing in a few ideas here but it might be better if the winners circle was a bit less accessible. e.g. if it was only accesible from one territory in each segment of track rather than anywhere on the track. Or maybe have a bigger neutral army on the winners circle.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby waauw on Mon May 27, 2013 2:29 pm

Woltato wrote:Played a couple more games on this map now and I like the fact that it's nice and open. I'm wondering though if maybe it's a bit too open with the winners circle being accessible from anywhere on the track. Just throwing in a few ideas here but it might be better if the winners circle was a bit less accessible. e.g. if it was only accesible from one territory in each segment of track rather than anywhere on the track. Or maybe have a bigger neutral army on the winners circle.


A bigger neutral on the winners circle isn't a good idea. It's hard enough to kill someone as is already. Also I don't think making only one piece per segment connectable to the winners circle will change much.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby waauw on Mon May 27, 2013 2:35 pm

Woltato wrote:I can't imagine that the entire pits bonus will ever be much of a factor. It's almost half the board so by the time a player has all of those territories secured they're almost certain to have the game won anyway.

The 40 track bonus is a nice idea though. Doubt anyone would be allowed to take it during a sunny game but it's one that might go unnoticed under fog.


Actually a lot of players already do go for 3 of the same in the pit, even though it doesn't give them any bonuses. Also keeping in mind the last edition of this beta map that was released, most of the focus was on the pit. Another thing to remember is that inexperienced players(for this specific map) will almost always concentrate on the pit rather than on the track. This is just an observation I have had after 82 games played on this map

Additionally you can actually know that people have the entire track while playing fog. All you have to do is check territory numbers, check how many teritories every player has in the pits, count in the crew and check the log whether they have any troops on their car and voila you'll know how many troops the player has on track.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby waauw on Mon May 27, 2013 2:42 pm

dolomite13 wrote:I like the suggestion of linking all pit equipment to the pit row. With that 20 reset it would keep them clogged there till someone decided to break that down. I have noticed that once someone takes pit row everyone follows them back onto the track.

I think there are a few ways to go with pit equipment bonuses...

We could have +3 for 3 of the same pit equipment. I know that's an easier bonus to grab because they are connected to one another but that would bump up the overall pit bonus. So instead of +15 for the entire pits it would be +30

Another option is +2 for 3 of same equipment and an additional +15 for holding all pit equipment which would make it +40 and more on par with the big track bonus.

And a final option that might make people really fight in the pit equipment area would be to have a +5 synergy bonus for each full set of all 5 pit equipment. So the entire pits would grant +30.

Still not sure but I know I want to increase the current +15 for the entire pits to at least 30 I am just not certain which of these would give that bonus without changing the overall strategy too much and without taking focus away from the track.

=D=



We could have +3 for 3 of the same pit equipment.
==> too much, I'd lower this to +2 as it's easier then 3 different equipments and it has the additional advantage that nobody can bombard the equipment your occupying.

Another option is +2 for 3 of same equipment and an additional +15 for holding all pit equipment which would make it +40 and more on par with the big track bonus.
==> I like this idea! balances it out

And a final option that might make people really fight in the pit equipment area would be to have a +5 synergy bonus for each full set of all 5 pit equipment. So the entire pits would grant +30.
==> having 5 different equipments from the same row is very difficult, maybe too difficult. By the time you hold 5, it'll probably have cost you a fortune in troops to take and protect, so I'd think it's not worth going for this bonus.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:01 am

So here are the changes I am currently going to be adding to the map to make the final balance adjustments.

* All pit equipment can assault the pit row.

* +2 bonus for 3 of the same pit equipment.

That may be enough but ... I really think a synergy bonus for the pit side would help in some No Spoils games.

My latest thought would be to have a +15 bonus for holding your entire car, pit crew, and 1 of each pit equipment... easier said than done... and would allow up to 3 players on a team to all receive that bonus. Plus it would promote bombarding the cars from the pits rather than the detente I see in a lot of games where players just sit back and let everyone have the car bonus.

=D=
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby waauw on Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:56 pm

sounds good! except that +15 is way too much imo. Even a +5 will be enough incentive for people to break other people's bonuses I think.
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Re: The Conquer 500 [D GR GP XML Beta]

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:01 pm

For mapmaker request the map is now listed as Conquer 500, without "the". ;)

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