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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby WidowMakers on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:43 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Nooo... My immaculate perl skills are useless now :cry:

Well as cool as this tool is (very cool) , I would never want to do the XML for the Hive that way. Some maps (i.e. poker club, Hive) could be easier another way
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:46 pm

ender516 wrote:Getting back to the tool itself, I am pleased to see that chipv has attempted to auto-scale coordinates between map sizes. Am I correct that this happens only when the territory is initially created, and adjustments to each are made separately?


Yes I had to do that otherwise you would get changes on one affecting the other. Since there is probably always going to be a rounding error,
as most map sizes are not direct multiples, one map can have territories one pixel out, so if I kept on auto-calculating then you would never get it right.

So if you have 2 maps loaded, adding a territory to one map also auto-adds it to the other but thereafter they are left alone for manual
adjusting separately.

Best thing is to always load both maps, do all territories on one, then adjust the ones you need on the other map which shouldn't take long.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby ender516 on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:49 pm

WidowMakers wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:Nooo... My immaculate perl skills are useless now :cry:

Well as cool as this tool is (very cool) , I would never want to do the XML for the Hive that way. Some maps (i.e. poker club, Hive) could be easier another way

You're quite right, there are maps with regular patterns where generated XML would be simpler. The great thing about this tool is that you could generate all the stuff with a pattern, then load that XML into this tool, and point and shoot to put in the odd bits.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:01 pm

It would be very helpful if you could also scroll the map image sideways. Currently when you work on the large image, you can only scroll up and down, and so the editing window covers part of the image... so you'll have to zoom out which makes the positioning of coordinates hard.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:42 am

natty_dread wrote:It would be very helpful if you could also scroll the map image sideways. Currently when you work on the large image, you can only scroll up and down, and so the editing window covers part of the image... so you'll have to zoom out which makes the positioning of coordinates hard.


Ok I will look into it.

I'm looking for ideas for extra warnings/errors in the XML validation as we can put is as many as we need.

Current suggestions:

Warning: Continent X contains Continent Y which it does not override
Error: Continents X overrides continent Y which it does not have as a component. (Not the same as that continent not existsing)

More suggestions welcome.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:29 pm

Awesome stuff Chip...

As said - a few maps you wouldn't want to do the terits/continents - but you probably still want to do the co-ords with this... the cursor key moving is simply the best bit of that - at the moment it's a right arse to move an army number 1 pixel - then another etc...

chipv wrote:Error: Continents X overrides continent Y which it does not have as a component. (Not the same as that continent not existsing)


Shouldn't be an error (Warning is fine)... can be desired. (Pretty sure I use that in Poker Club for instance)

Others...

Error : Territory X has the same co-ordinates as Territory Y.
Warning : Territory X is too close to territory Y
(might need to work out what "too close" is)
Error : Territory X has Killer Neutral and Territory Bonus
Error : Territoy X borders & bombards territory Y
(does this one already get checked for?)

C.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:16 pm

yeti_c wrote:
chipv wrote:Error: Continents X overrides continent Y which it does not have as a component. (Not the same as that continent not existsing)


Shouldn't be an error (Warning is fine)... can be desired. (Pretty sure I use that in Poker Club for instance)

Others...

Error : Territory X has the same co-ordinates as Territory Y.
Warning : Territory X is too close to territory Y
(might need to work out what "too close" is)
Error : Territory X has Killer Neutral and Territory Bonus
Error : Territoy X borders & bombards territory Y
(does this one already get checked for?)

C.


Ok so we want

Warning: Continents X overrides continent Y which it does not have as a component.
Warning: Continent X contains Continent Y which it does not override
Error: Territory X has Killer Neutral and Territory Bonus

Error: Territory X has territory Y as both a border and a bombardment -
No, the mapmaker does not check for this according to its list, so we need this.

Error:Territory X has same co-ordinates as Territory Y (does this happen that often?)

Dunno about territories too close to each other - do we have a specification on this?

Some more:

Continent X has no bonus specified
Continents X has no components
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby ender516 on Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:50 pm

I don't think there is a specification about how close territories can be to each other, but I know that in cases like Rail Europe, it can be very difficult to point at one number and see the map inspection markers (bars, boxes, brackets, etc.) on the neighbours.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:52 pm

chipv wrote:Dunno about territories too close to each other - do we have a specification on this?


Presumably, if one territory's army count coincides with another territory's army count. That would be if they're within 12 pixels vertically or -- using four digits as the maximum length (which it will be for the vast, vast majority of cases) -- 33 horizontally. That would be the strictest specification.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:04 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:
chipv wrote:Dunno about territories too close to each other - do we have a specification on this?


Presumably, if one territory's army count coincides with another territory's army count. That would be if they're within 12 pixels vertically or -- using four digits as the maximum length (which it will be for the vast, vast majority of cases) -- 33 horizontally. That would be the strictest specification.


Something like that - although I think we force to 3 digits rather than 4 (except for CC City Mogul (where we forced to 4 because of the numbers involved))

chipv wrote:Error:Territory X has same co-ordinates as Territory Y (does this happen that often?)


It does when I'm writing the XML - because I copy n paste that section and sort it out afterwards... Could combine this with the above though?

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:22 am

yeti_c wrote:Something like that - although I think we force to 3 digits rather than 4 (except for CC City Mogul (where we forced to 4 because of the numbers involved))


In a build-up game it's not hard to get over 100 on any map. Combine that with the color code and you get an easy 4 (admittedly, once you're in 3-digit territory, the last digit isn't very significant but it's important to know that the last digit is there).
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:43 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Something like that - although I think we force to 3 digits rather than 4 (except for CC City Mogul (where we forced to 4 because of the numbers involved))


In a build-up game it's not hard to get over 100 on any map. Combine that with the color code and you get an easy 4 (admittedly, once you're in 3-digit territory, the last digit isn't very significant but it's important to know that the last digit is there).


Whilst I appreciate that - the limits that the foundry holds is to 3 digits...

So - 3 digits should be an error (i.e. you can't proceed with this map)
4 digits could be a warning...

Here's another error though...
Error: Territory X Co-ordinates are too close to the edge of the map.
(i.e. that with 3 digits the army number falls off the map)
Error: Territory X Co-ordinates are off the edge of the map.
(i.e. the army number isn't visible as it is outside the map size)
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:01 am

Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:48 am

natty_dread wrote:Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...


On the other hand, bonus assignment is fairly context-sensitive and the spreadsheets are always more like recommendations. Ideally this tool would get used after all the squabbling over gameplay specifics is done with.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:14 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...


On the other hand, bonus assignment is fairly context-sensitive and the spreadsheets are always more like recommendations. Ideally this tool would get used after all the squabbling over gameplay specifics is done with.


Yeah, but it would be a nice addition to the tool. They can always be adjusted by hand later on. And it would make deciding bonuses easier, as you wouldn't have to count territories and borders and whatnot for the spreadsheets, but the program would do it for you.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:15 am

I have added the errors for Territory with killer neutral+bonus and Territory border+bombarding same territory.

I've modified the head post to explicitly say what the Wizard actually does when it encounters warnings and errors on validation.
(Auto correction)

Please can some of you take a look to see if it looks sensible.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:21 am

Here's what I think...

chipv wrote:
  • Error: Territory X has mutiple entries
    Action: Duplicate instances of Territory X are removed.
    Suggested action: Duplicates are renamed X(x++) (i.e. "X(1)", "X(2)")
  • Error: Position X has component Y which does not exist as a territory
    Action: Position X is removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: Component Y is removed from position X.
  • Error: Mutiple positions contain component X
    Action: Duplicate instances of positions with Component X are removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: None


C.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:12 am

yeti_c wrote:Here's what I think...

chipv wrote:
  • Error: Territory X has mutiple entries
    Action: Duplicate instances of Territory X are removed.
    Suggested action: Duplicates are renamed X(x++) (i.e. "X(1)", "X(2)")
  • Error: Position X has component Y which does not exist as a territory
    Action: Position X is removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: Component Y is removed from position X.
  • Error: Mutiple positions contain component X
    Action: Duplicate instances of positions with Component X are removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: None


C.


I'm not sure about the suggested action for 'Territory X has multiple entries' because that would then create territories that
are not contained within the same continent , for which there are no warnings or errors. If X is contained within a objective
or any territory list containing X then you would have a similar dilemma because X(x) won't be.

Something like this could be a genuine mistake or maybe a result of the XML being generated.

That XML would now subsequently be valid (probably with one-way warnings for new territories X(x)) whereas perhaps it should flag some warning.
A corrected XML shouldn't produce any additional warnings.

Agreed with suggested actions on positions. (Can positions contain continents btw - the tutorial implies territories?)
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:23 am

chipv wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Here's what I think...

chipv wrote:
  • Error: Territory X has mutiple entries
    Action: Duplicate instances of Territory X are removed.
    Suggested action: Duplicates are renamed X(x++) (i.e. "X(1)", "X(2)")
  • Error: Position X has component Y which does not exist as a territory
    Action: Position X is removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: Component Y is removed from position X.
  • Error: Mutiple positions contain component X
    Action: Duplicate instances of positions with Component X are removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: None


C.


I'm not sure about the suggested action for 'Territory X has multiple entries' because that would then create territories that
are not contained within the same continent , for which there are no warnings or errors. If X is contained within a objective
or any territory list containing X then you would have a similar dilemma because X(x) won't be.

Something like this could be a genuine mistake or maybe a result of the XML being generated.

That XML would now subsequently be valid (probably with one-way warnings for new territories X(x)) whereas perhaps it should flag some warning.
A corrected XML shouldn't produce any additional warnings.

Agreed with suggested actions on positions. (Can positions contain continents btw - the tutorial implies territories?)


Hang on - what does the multiple entries error mean?

Your comment seems to imply that it is inside of continents?

I am assuming that it is just in the territory list...

The problem with removing multiples here - is that the multiples could be correct with other work having gone into them - but badly named (copied?) - and you lose data...

Perhaps doing nothing would be better?

Pretty sure positions are territories only.

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby MrBenn on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:01 pm

yeti_c wrote:Pretty sure positions are territories only.

C.

They are (at the moment).

So too are objectives (for the time being).

natty_dread wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...


On the other hand, bonus assignment is fairly context-sensitive and the spreadsheets are always more like recommendations. Ideally this tool would get used after all the squabbling over gameplay specifics is done with.


Yeah, but it would be a nice addition to the tool. They can always be adjusted by hand later on. And it would make deciding bonuses easier, as you wouldn't have to count territories and borders and whatnot for the spreadsheets, but the program would do it for you.

Chip and I had a long discussion about this at the start of this project - we decided to stay away from that coding suggested bonuses into the tool. This was firstly because there are no perfect algorithms to describe the bonus structure for every potential, because the simplest algorithms are devoid of context and complex algorithms struggle to cope with too many permutations. Secondly, the tool is to assist with XML development, which is the last thing a map needs - at this stage it's probably too late to still be overhauling bonus values.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:26 pm

chipv......

YOU ARE THE MAN!!!
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:46 pm

yeti_c wrote:Hang on - what does the multiple entries error mean?

Your comment seems to imply that it is inside of continents?

I am assuming that it is just in the territory list...

The problem with removing multiples here - is that the multiples could be correct with other work having gone into them - but badly named (copied?) - and you lose data...

Perhaps doing nothing would be better?

Pretty sure positions are territories only.

C.

Yes your assumption same as mine, in the territory list.
To exemplify what I was saying:

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Solar System</name>
<bonus>5</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Earth</territory>
<territory>Mars</territory>
</components>
</continent>

<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>

If I rename the duplicate territory, then the duplicate won't be automatically included in territory lists containing the original.

So here if I rename the multiple to Earth2 then Solar system will only include Earth. This could easily be missed by the user
as there won't be a validation problem if the multiple is renamed.

I think maybe do nothing on this one, but still flag.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby ender516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:00 pm

chipv wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Hang on - what does the multiple entries error mean?

Your comment seems to imply that it is inside of continents?

I am assuming that it is just in the territory list...

The problem with removing multiples here - is that the multiples could be correct with other work having gone into them - but badly named (copied?) - and you lose data...

Perhaps doing nothing would be better?

Pretty sure positions are territories only.

C.

Yes your assumption same as mine, in the territory list.
To exemplify what I was saying:

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Solar System</name>
<bonus>5</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Earth</territory>
<territory>Mars</territory>
</components>
</continent>

<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>

If I rename the duplicate territory, then the duplicate won't be automatically included in territory lists containing the original.

So here if I rename the multiple to Earth2 then Solar system will only include Earth. This could easily be missed by the user
as there won't be a validation problem if the multiple is renamed.

I think maybe do nothing on this one, but still flag.

Is there some way to catch and prevent the creation of a duplicate territory? This wouldn't help with the problem of duplicates in XML that the user loads in, but it gets us part way home.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:06 pm

I'm assuming Chip has that as part of his tool - this is purely for loaded XML.#

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:14 pm

ender516 wrote:Is there some way to catch and prevent the creation of a duplicate territory? This wouldn't help with the problem of duplicates in XML that the user loads in, but it gets us part way home.


Yes, I could either flag it dynamically or better still, I think, would be to flatly refuse to show the generated XML until
duplicates have been resolved. That would then mean I can leave alone loaded duplicates, but still validate them as errors.

That means the generated XML would always be correct which is what the intention is.
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